Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[Mithost]

I was trying to get Salem to play as Ganon during Ally's live stream last night. Instead he got owned with snake D:

 

[Xubble]

I love me some King of Evil. :ganonbrawl:

 

[Pogogo]

I think the unity ruleset should include the "lol nub" rule. In that if you are noob, you are allowed to use mk and still lose, to give the illusion of balance.

 

[Igni3]

People who plays Balanced Brawl doesn't care about this :D
(All the other mods people too, perhaps)

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Jeez louise I lose my internet for a week and miss out on this

Fina-****ing-lly

 

[SmashChu]

He made a valid argument, read past his first sentance.

Still I feel like this will go back and forth and if he makes another reference to some other fighting game I'm just going to post the funniest, trollingest image in the entire face of the planet.

Basically, you want to argue in a vacuum. That's not how the world work. I make references to other games to show you that weaker characters can win. It's all up to the player. I'll keep doing it because it reinforces the point.

No one ever said that it's impossible to beat Meta Knight. Everyone says that it is simply too much for characters to be able to fight Meta Knight and Meta Knight has a lot more options and a very high chance at winning the game. It's no longer a game of skill or mind games or outplaying the opponent. It's whether or not your opponent knows the match up, and if they do, you're not going to win unless some random element wins you the match, like tripping. The Meta Knight, if playing smart, will win. And by playing smart, they are already outplaying their opponent.

Take a Pit vs Toon Link match. This match is so dead even, it's not even funny. Pit has to work just as hard as Toon Link to get a kill in, to get damage in, to avoid damage, and to camp successfully. This matchup relies on many elements, rather than just matchup experience; it relies on mind games, the ability of one player to outplay the opponent, and
who has better "anything" in terms of play style. If I had better spacing, or he had better control, or if I had better reads, or if he had better mix ups... The list goes on.

If you want that, go play Starcraft 2. Your never going to get it perfect in a fighting game. SOMEONE will have a bad match-up. Banning Meta-Knight is not going to make it a perfect world. If you play a fighting game, your will have a match up where even if you play better, you still lose.

Last time I checked, Meta-Knight went 50:50 with the top tier characters. Segat in Street Fighter 4 went 60:40 with most of the A characters.

With Meta Knight, take ALL of that away, and you are left with "Does the Meta Knight know the match up enough to take out the opponent who DOES?" If the answer is yes, it's more than likely the Meta Knight will jog all over the opponent's face no matter what kind of development that character has gone through in the meta game.

Yeah, because he knew the match-up better and played it out better. Knowwing your match-ups and how to play them out is how you are going to win against individual characters. If he knew it better, it doesn't mean the character was better, but he out played you. It's hard for people, I think, to say they lost to a better player and instead lost to annoying Mtea-Knight. He is the Mutalisk of this game.

No it's more that people want to ban a character who has dominated the meta game even with other characters attempting to learn and get better, learn and get better, learn and get better. No matter what, this endless cycle will end with Meta Knight on top. It's not a question of whether Meta Knight is hard, it's an answer of the fact that Meta Knight IS on top and remains on top no matter how far we into in the meta game. We take 1 step forward, Meta Knight takes 2 steps forward, and then steps on your !@#$ing foot for even daring to step forward. And we continue to limp.

Yeah, that tends to happen. Yun, Chun-Li and Ken were still top in 3rd Strike no matter how much they wanted it.

This is a faulty connection to completely different game titles with different levels of metagame development and strategy. Plus you're using an assumption, no less, and not actual data, which the pro-ban side has, not simply "oh wah, MK is too good, ban him cuz I dont want to deal with him", that's quite an ignorant viewpoint.

It's not a faulty connection. it's a perfectly good on, but seeing your comments, you want to ignore what happens in other games and keep trucking down "Meta-Knight BAD." Mutas beat players because they don't know how to scout nor do they know what to do where the Mutas are there.

A big problem is the game as it's being played is under developed. I figure why I saw Yoshi and Sonic beat meta-Knight was because MLG will bring out the best in playing and everyone will try for the top. But once it's gone, no one is trying that hard to change the game. So again, the Meta-game is weak. Compare it to Starcraft 2, where you have professional players who make sure their race can win (and yes, Protoss is a weak race right now. But I don't hear them wanting to ban Zerg).

We made connections and evaluations of the game's development between certain periods, and have found that we as a player base have been doing WORSE and WORSE against Meta Knight. That's the only thing that I've seen being brought to the surface as far as the years being concerned.

And what I'm saying is that Meta Knights who DO lose don't lose because we found a way to deal with him or that's actually likely (or possible) to beat him, it's because they don't know the match up yet, and as it has been proven, they learn and then the matchup is defined yet again more in his favor. There was never a question of MK's dominance over the entire cast, and now he's dominating even more because we're running out of tricks to pull out of sleeves to throw at him.

Post are kind of the same. It's the same thing. Meta-game, meta-game, meta-game. Brawl is very under developed and will stay that way until we get players really trying to win. Of course, with no big tourney, that wont happen. Of course, what is the solution in players eyes. "Oh, just remove this character," which has other repercussions. And then we get here......

Banning him solved one thing; we will no longer have to deal with his match up, and now can focus on other match ups to further the meta game.

Basically, we don't have to deal with the Mutas anymore. This isn't a point and just "We can't beat him." The solution in every game is just get better. Yun is borderline broken in Arcade Addition, but people still just beat him.

What I'm saying is that X character can not beat Meta Knight no matter how much the metagame of that character developes if the Meta Knight becomes aware of the character's newfound development or strategy. Hell, even Meta Knights (as has been said) that are not high level players, but simply have different strategies, playing styles, or mindsets, are able to completely dominate other characters' users who would otherwise give a high level MK trouble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9Ajw4BWS5E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z80enGk962c&feature=related

 

[Supreme Dirt]

...

...
...


...

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES

That was my reaction on Friday when Tin announced it to us at a smashfest.


Finally.

 

[SmashChu]

More fun stuff

Meta-Knight's match-up. He has no greater than a 70 match up against Ivysaur. Most of them are 55 (more like a 50) and 60 (not a big advantage).

Short youtube video showing problems with this decision.

On match-ups

BB:CT had broken characters too,
like Rachel and Nu (9-1 matchups, no 4-6 or lower), the people just dealt with it. Why not the same with meta knight?

 

[Sinji]

People who plays Balanced Brawl doesn't care about this :D
(All the other mods people too, perhaps)

Agreed. I think it's safe to say that mod people will run to Snake now.

 

[Jam Stunna]

@SmashChu- ArcSys actually fixed those absurd matchups eventually.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Yeah, you can't really compare Brawl to something like BB.

BB (and other fighters) have game updates to look forward to, we don't. We're stuck with Brawl as is. There's not going to be some Brawl Arcade Edition or what have you.

 

[kackamee]

^ What he said. Banning Metaknight improved the overall balance of the game.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Why'd he get banned again? He's lightweight and doesn't have a strong attack like falcon punch

I was ready to sig this.

 

[Alien Vision]

We can say it all we want.

We know, in all of our hearts, that MK's ban was the greatest action made in history and people will persist to yell at you with their ''facts'' acting like it's the end for everything.

If only humans learned how to control themselves in regards to changes; things would be alot more considerate.

You cannot control what you do not understand. I understand this, most people understand this, and I am very sure, deep down, those who complain will soon understand that they've known it all along and are too weak to admit that they have wasted their time with a character, and cannot win a battle that was declared for the better of this game. When complaining about it really is contradicting your purpose for fighting against the better of decisions. MK was given too much time, and failed to support any reason to be kept ingame.

End of story.
​

Sadly, this reminds me of when a kid finds a gun. It's overpowered, but when you find them with the gun knowing you have to try to take the gun away, the kid hesitates about it.. The person who is trying to take the gun away is risking their all for himself, and the ignorant child that holds the gun. Sadly, the child is oblivious to the bravery of the man before him, and only cares about what they want.

 

[Meru.]

More fun stuff

Meta-Knight's match-up. He has no greater than a 70 match up against Ivysaur. Most of them are 55 (more like a 50) and 60 (not a big advantage).

Short youtube video showing problems with this decision.

On match-ups

Ehhhh no. That match-up chart is just wrong (and likely also outdated).

Second, Blazblue CT was a billion times more balanced than Brawl is and Rachel and Nu did have (many) match-ups there were worse than 6-4.

Not that I can really take your posts seriously or anything. Especially if you say **** like:

The Meta-Knight problem has more to do with players being bad and not adapting rather than him being good. He is still good, but these players are here whining that they lost to a decent Meta-Knight rather than learn the match-up. You know why Yun doesn't just **** in SSF4 AE despite him being really good. People learned the match-up and make sure not to lose to him. That's what you do as a character.

To be precise, this made your posts go from joke to TROLOLO.

 

[Keitaro]

What Yaay said.

Also that video is interesting but barely a help to the anti ban argument at all. Anyone that uses it as reference looks silly imo.

Once again my blog in response: http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=125145

 

[Exce L]

This thread has become the same eight to ten people talking for a countless amount of pages.
And it's getting really bad.

 

[Steam]

yeah smashchu don't insult the entire smash community by saying we haven't been struggling to adapt to MK for 3 years. the people who weren't willing to do that have quit.

 

[Mithost]

...like Rachel and Nu (9-1 matchups, no 4-6 or lower), the people just dealt with it. Why not the same with meta knight?

I have played BB:CT competitively and a 9-1 matchup there was much easier to accomplish unless you were playing as TAGER. I remember maining as Jin in that game, and I was able to take out a good rachel with relative ease compared to trying to play as lucas against MK. Blazblue is more balanced than Brawl is, having only 3 tiers in CS2 last time I checked, having everyone except TAGER being viable for tourneys.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Last night before I went to bed, 478 people Facebook liked this. Now its 520. lol

 

[Omega Tyrant]

More fun stuff

Meta-Knight's match-up. He has no greater than a 70 match up against Ivysaur. Most of them are 55 (more like a 50) and 60 (not a big advantage).

Short youtube video showing problems with this decision.

On match-ups

Don't use SmashWikia, that matchup chart is outdated.

Use the actual SmashWiki, that's up to date with the correct matchup chart

 

[Tommy_G]

Anyways....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAWuMd6GOfs&feature=related

 

[Tesh]

This thread has become the same eight to ten people talking for a countless amount of pages.
And it's getting really bad.

the fate of every thread here...

 

[Thino]

sorry not very familiar with the Brawl tournament scene, do tournament organizers have to use the Unity ruleset? or can they make their own rules about tournament where they will allow Metaknight or not?

also, who do Metaknight players in this thread plan on maining for tournament purposes?

so anyone care to answer my questions or are you all busy getting trolled by Chu?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

sorry not very familiar with the Brawl tournament scene, do tournament organizers have to use the Unity ruleset? or can they make their own rules about tournament where they will allow Metaknight or not?

also, who do Metaknight players in this thread plan on maining for tournament purposes?

Only those following Unity Ruleset do. Keep in mind that they're sponsored by Unity as well. So it's easier to get a larger turnout because of sponsors. Anybody can run their own non-sponsored tournament with any rules they wish.

There is still the Apex tournament to finish up, and Meta Knight is allowed there.

I wouldn't call SmashChu a troll, mind you. But he needs to stop comparing this game to other series. They only share one thing in common: Being a fighting game with characters. I mean, I can understand the Street Fighter analogy, since we're talking about 1 on 1(player-wise), but the games are still played completely differently anyway. The Smash Bros. series is closer to a beat-'em up than a Traditional Fighting game anyway.(Power Stone, for example) Yes, the competitive scene plays a bit more like a traditional game, but it's honestly not one.(atleast not Brawl and Classic. Melee has a bit of a traditional style t it)

 

[Ingulit]

I think we should have two threads on this matter:

1) This one, where the majority of conversation is based on whether or not the banning was good/needed/etc., and
2) A thread about the post-MK ban metagame.

The two topics are both being discussed here, and I think they're different enough to warrent two threads so that neither is clogged by the other.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Yes, the competitive scene plays a bit more like a traditional game, but it's honestly not one.(atleast not Brawl and Classic. Melee has a bit of a traditional style t it)

Last I checked, Melee had King of the Hill-style mechanics too.

Smooth Criminal

 

[stingers]

I hosted an MK ban tourney this weekend that had 41 entrants (like 2x the normal amount NC tournaments get)

so yeah...mk ban does increase entrants, lol

 

[ryuu seika]

I don't see why people have made such a big deal about the idea of banning a character for as long as they have. Other fighting game communities ban majorly unfair characters so I don't see why the smash community can't do the same.
Still though, I did like Necrid...

 

[01011010]

sorry not very familiar with the Brawl tournament scene, do tournament organizers have to use the Unity ruleset? or can they make their own rules about tournament where they will allow Metaknight or not?

also, who do Metaknight players in this thread plan on maining for tournament purposes?

MK main here, and the answer to your question, in my opinion, shows why this decision has plenty of potential for being great for the community.

I play with a lot of characters, and I don't plan on maining anyone in particular. I expect counter-picking characters to become much more necessary. That being said, I have a few in mind. Yes, I'll most likely stick with high-tiered characters: Snake, Falco, and Wario come to mind. If I were to have an actual main, I expect it might be Pikachu; I don't have much high-level experience with him, but he seems worthy of much practice, particularly now that the sword-bat is gone. Pika has trouble with Marth and Diddy(If I'm not mistaken, I'm hardly a matchup guru[MK main before, remember? Matchup data was unnecessary other than "my character wins LOLOLO"]), so, if I were to main him, I'd need to be ready with CPs for those. Fox was my old main, and he might even come into the mix.

The point is, without a clear cut "best" character, the other top characters mix and blend as their metagames develop better and faster than before, and mid and even low tiered characters can become more useful as counterpicking becomes more important.

Again, I'm no expert. That's just how I see it playing out.

 

[Thino]

Only those following Unity Ruleset do. Keep in mind that they're sponsored by Unity as well. So it's easier to get a larger turnout because of sponsors. Anybody can run their own non-sponsored tournament with any rules they wish.

There is still the Apex tournament to finish up, and Meta Knight is allowed there.

Alright thanks for the info.

I wouldn't call SmashChu a troll, mind you. But he needs to stop comparing this game to other series. They only share one thing in common: Being a fighting game with characters. I mean, I can understand the Street Fighter analogy, since we're talking about 1 on 1(player-wise), but the games are still played completely differently anyway. The Smash Bros. series is closer to a beat-'em up than a Traditional Fighting game anyway.(Power Stone, for example) Yes, the competitive scene plays a bit more like a traditional game, but it's honestly not one.(atleast not Brawl and Classic. Melee has a bit of a traditional style t it)

It's not the analogy to Street Fighter itself that makes me call him a troll.

It's more because from the few posts I've read from him in this thread, he claims to use the analogy with other fighters with the way people have to adapt to some matchups considered as hard, when at the end of the day, it all depends on the community, whatever the reasons are, as much as he wants to compare.

and the fact that the decision has been already taken kills that kind of discussion anyway, I'd rather hear what Metaknight mains are planning to do

 

[Gambe17]

This ban will make europeans and japanese brawlers not want to come here and possibly ruin Apex 2012 for us. Thanks a lot URC! You've done it again!

 

[Mithost]

I don't see why people are complaining so much. MK mains have until JANUARY to pick a new main, which they can just pick out of their secondaries. With one character gone, many more characters will reach the higher tiers, and thus create a more balanced game. I know people lost their mains, but metaknight is broken substantially better than most of the cast, with 2 or 3 even match-ups. It was a good move.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I don't see why people have made such a big deal about the idea of banning a character for as long as they have. Other fighting game communities ban majorly unfair characters so I don't see why the smash community can't do the same.
Still though, I did like Necrid...

It's not a matter that they "can't." It's a matter of "how" and "why" more than anything.

I don't recall Necrid being banned in SC2. He was playable on all platforms if I remember correctly. I know the console-specific characters (Link, Heihachi, Spawn) were banned 'cause they were, well, console-specific. Kinda hard to practice playing with (and against) a character when they're only present in only one iteration of the game.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Steam]

Apex will be MK legal you dolt

besides, even if it wasn't those few people coming over can get over it. Their money is worth just as much as a casual's

 

[Gambe17]

Apex will be MK legal you dolt

besides, even if it wasn't those few people coming over can get over it. Their money is worth just as much as a casual's

What matters is our interaction on an international level you idiot. And yes the money is the same but would you rather see some brawlers from out of country playing on the livestreams or some scrubs that just bore me to death.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I don't see why people are complaining so much. MK mains have until JANUARY to pick a new main, which they can just pick out of their secondaries. With one character gone, many more characters will reach the higher tiers, and thus create a more balanced game. I know people lost their mains, but metaknight is broken substantially better than most of the cast, with 2 or 3 even match-ups. It was a good move.

It's posts like these that make me think the "other fighting game communities" analogy holds any kind of water.

If you're going to support their decision to ban the character, at least educate yourself as to why. It's not just because MK had great match-ups all across the board. Hell, there are a ****-ton of FGs out there that are horribly IMBA (perhaps even worse than Brawl) in relation to character attributes stacked up against one another and nobody in their cast was barred from play. It was because, arguably, MK broke the mechanics of the game (well, the incredibly nuanced and artificial aspects that we've imposed on it anyway) with things like planking and scrooging.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Steam]

What matters is our interaction on an international level you idiot.

and that will accomplish...

 

[Gambe17]

I don't see why people are complaining so much. MK mains have until JANUARY to pick a new main, which they can just pick out of their secondaries. With one character gone, many more characters will reach the higher tiers, and thus create a more balanced game. I know people lost their mains, but metaknight is broken substantially better than most of the cast, with 2 or 3 even match-ups. It was a good move.

He was not broken, he just was a tough match up but you lazy holigans can't just get better to beat it. So, you had to recure to this nasty low blow.

 

[Keitaro]

He was not broken, he just was a tough match up but you lazy holigans can't just get better to beat it. So, you had to recure to this nasty low blow.

Seeing consistent rudeness/low quality posts like this are bothersome.

Temp unsubscribes.