Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[Masky]

Masky, just because he did it one time (with a move that takes 2 minutes to charge) doesnt mean that its a reliable counter to a degenerative tactic, anymore than jebus linking to one japanese vid means that fox vs mk is an even matchup

The Metagame Minute video already explains in detail how it's a reliable counter to planking. What remains to be proven about its reliability? The technique will work 100% of the time as long as you make the correct inputs 100% of the time. I just posted the match to show an example of someone doing it in tournament on his second attempt, showing that anti-planking is not even close to being humanly impossible.

I don't understand, if the person is sitting there in their shield they are obviously trying to coax you into doing an uair, in that situation MK just... doesn't uair.

If you see them commit to something other than shield, then you use uair lol, or just fast-fall down and wait for their attack to finish so you can SL them.

You wait until the last possible moment to shield (or dash and shield) so they can't react. Mix up the shielding with running off and bairing or something.

 

[Coney]

[yt]uSAKWpppVJY[/yt]

Already done.

 

[Spelt]

lolol you're never gonna live that down.

 

[Coney]

it's one of those things i'll reminisce about wistfully in a smoky barroom, thinking of all my missed opportunities and lost lovers

 

[Spelt]

You and MK could've had everything.

 

[Ghostbone]

Rich spent several hundred dollars to fly to WHOBO and lose to planking thats unreasonable to attempt to stop.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=312219

Maybe thats not enough proof for you, but it is for me. And it is for most of the community. I dont want to see something like that happen again.

Once again, subjective. Its not that I dont get your point, youre bothered because I dont agree with you, but we simply have a different point of view.

It makes me really quite annoyed when people try to make it seem like Rich is a victim.

He knew there was no LGL, and he chose to go. It's his own ****ing fault if he didn't have any idea how to combat planking. And the stupidest thing? He stopped doing what was working against Will.
What people need to realise, is that it's as much Rich's fault as anyone else's that he got planked, and it's certainly not the TOs.

If there's a tournament with PTAD legal, you don't pay heaps of money to go to it, and then when you get hit by a car because you're an idiot, complain heavily about why you got "cheated" out of your win, which you "deserved".

So much bias against planking I swear -_-

 

[Judo777]

A few? It's more than just a few, especially when you consider the fact that the match up is not played very often at high/top level

That's the exact problem with this reasoning. Your definition of top level is already really stupid. They are only top level if they beat top players. Since most top players play MK they are only top level if they in fact beat MK's. If the Foxes lose to top MK's all the time then they aren't top level and therefore its not counted as an example of the MU.

So we can only consider games where the Fox wins the set as an example of the MU played at top levels. All those times when Zeton lost to MK's doesn't count because he wasn't top level then. All the times Trevonte lost to MK's it doesn't count because he wasn't a top level player yet.

Also apparently TKD's recent losses against Tyrant don't count because he went MK game 5. "only if he loses or wins the set solo with that character defines a MU." lol

 

[DMG]

I really don't understand the 1st sentence infers the 2nd one.

explain in details.

MK planking > everyone elses. That's obvious. But what if every other character sucked at planking? What if MK was no stronger on the edge than Marth is now, and everyone else was even further below that? It would warrant no action. No LGL or Ban of the character would be needed.

The mere comparison that MK planking > Everyone else is not enough to understand or represent that his planking is broken. Because of that, I added the second statement.


Masky: the metagame minute only addresses 1 specific scenario AND most characters do not have an appropriate response to it. You need a combination of a downward reaching attack (that reaches far enough) that's also very quick frame wise. The specific scenario it works in is also only for when you PS buffer Uair. If MK delays the Uair, on most characters what happens is he falls too low for you to punish him. A lot of characters BARELY are able to hit him at the higher buffer range. If he delays it and drops down before using Uair, out of the characters that DO have a response normally, the number drops even further.

It also doesn't address scenarios where MK uses a different attack, or drops down and maintains his advantaged position before doing something. It's 1 answer to 1-2 scenarios, not a general fix to the planking problem. You would be silly if you thought being able to do that completely nullified planking.

 

[Masky]

Masky: the metagame minute only addresses 1 specific scenario AND most characters do not have an appropriate response to it. You need a combination of a downward reaching attack (that reaches far enough) that's also very quick frame wise.

The requirement is 14 frames, that's not very quick at all. And it's a combination of how far down the attack reaches and character movement. If it was just how far down the attack reaches, Wario's waft wouldn't work since it does not have a huge hitbox under him.

The specific scenario it works in is also only for when you PS buffer Uair. If MK delays the Uair, on most characters what happens is he falls too low for you to punish him. A lot of characters BARELY are able to hit him at the higher buffer range. If he delays it and drops down before using Uair, out of the characters that DO have a response normally, the number drops even further.

It also doesn't address scenarios where MK uses a different attack, or drops down and maintains his advantaged position before doing something. It's 1 answer to 1-2 scenarios, not a general fix to the planking problem. You would be silly if you thought being able to do that completely nullified planking.

The video only NEEDS to address a single scenario to prove that MK's planking is beatable. The biggest problem with planking was "perfect planking", which was thought to be completely unbeatable before the discovery of the anti-planking tactic. "Perfect planking" was so scary because no character could do anything about it no matter what. So now what we're left with is "perfect planking" and "imperfect planking". Anti-planking beats "perfect planking" and imperfect planking is punishable through standard techniques... just by virtue of the fact that is is "imperfect" and therefore MK is not invincible the whole time. For instance if MK drops down without doing uair, then you can just spike him, grab the edge and get your own invincibility, etc.

 

[Judo777]

The requirement is 14 frames, that's not very quick at all. And it's a combination of how far down the attack reaches and character movement. If it was just how far down the attack reaches, Wario's waft wouldn't work since it does not have a huge hitbox under him.



The video only NEEDS to address a single scenario to prove that MK's planking is beatable. The biggest problem with planking was "perfect planking", which was thought to be completely unbeatable before the discovery of the anti-planking tactic. "Perfect planking" was so scary because no character could do anything about it no matter what. So now what we're left with is "perfect planking" and "imperfect planking". Anti-planking beats "perfect planking" and imperfect planking is punishable through standard techniques... just by virtue of the fact that is is "imperfect" and therefore MK is not invincible the whole time. For instance if MK drops down without doing uair, then you can just spike him, grab the edge and get your own invincibility, etc.

What? no its not. "Perfect Planking" was never an issue because "Perfect Planking" isn't humanly possible. "Reasonable Planking" is the issue. The fact that its technically beatable, but realistically not beatable has always been the issue. Snake D3 is technically like -3 for Snake because D3 can infinite him, but really the MU is around even because no one can do that.

 

[DMG]

Except MK retains invincibility through other options. That's what you're missing. The ability to have numerous MK options that are also invincible, WHILE also being in an advantaged position regardless if the person comes offstage, grabs the edge, or stays onstage, is incredibly powerful.

The option to buffer Uair off the edge is beaten by this by the characters who can do it and hit him. His other options are still strong. His other options don't have a simple flowchart against them of "do this it wins everytime beat his planking with this method". Buffer Uair has the flowchart for the characters it works for. Other options don't and even finding them would not change how versatile MK can respond from the edge given invincibility.

Edit: Addressing a single scenario does not prove his planking is beatable or beatable by a reasonable expected margin. All it does is address that specific scenario. The real strength in MK planking is that he has numerous scenarios that you can't on the fly identify and punish precisely when you need to with a sufficient portion of the cast (even strong characters), that ALL involve MK becoming invincible.

Grabbing the edge to get your own invincibility has it's flaws as well. Grabbing the edge gives you lag that you cannot do anything about. Which is bad if you're trying to punish MK with something. Like Masky you can't just cover the totality of MK planking with "everything has a solution, find it and get better" lol when you can't even address the strong aspects of MK planking when mixed up in various ways.

 

[Masky]

Ok, so basically your argument is that while MK's planking is beatable based on prediction for many characters, the mixup flowchart is just too complex and in the risk/reward is in MK's favor, making the tactic broken?

First of all is that really even true though? Since no one has done a serious intensive study of all the planking options and their counters for each character (as far as I know), that's really up in the air. For all we know there may only be a handful of serious options MK has, or MK's opponent may only need to know a handful of counters to beat multiple options. Also I don't think it's that easy to say that the risk/reward ratio is too much in MK's favor since MK runs the risk of being spiked/stagespiked if he guesses incorrectly.

In any case having a complex mixup scenario isn't even bannable criteria. I mean, look at MK's tornado, which he can at any point choose to change direction/speed, or Wario's weaving (same), or even any nimble character's ability to simply walk/move just inside and outside of the opponent's range. Those also rely on a combination of complex multiple predictions and fast reactions in order to punish, should they be banned because they're not easily analyzed?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

That's the exact problem with this reasoning. Your definition of top level is already really stupid. They are only top level if they beat top players (overall). Since most top players play MK they are only top level if they in fact beat MK's. If the Foxes lose to top MK's all the time then they aren't top level and therefore its not counted as an example of the MU.

So we can only consider games where the Fox wins the set as an example of the MU played at top levels. All those times when Zeton lost to MK's doesn't count because he wasn't top level then. All the times Trevonte lost to MK's it doesn't count because he wasn't a top level player yet.

Also apparently TKD's recent losses against Tyrant don't count because he went MK game 5. "only if he loses or wins the set solo with that character defines a MU." lol

It's a lot easier for a lower tiered character main to be considered a top level player (for that character) seeing as how there are fewer examples of what a top level player of one of those character should look like. However, they still need to beat top level players to be considered top level players (overall). Being a top level character main does not automatically mean you are a top level player.

If these top level Fox players start to lose to those same top level MKs more than they win them, then maybe the MK just didn't really know the MU that well before and the MU really isn't as even as we thought it was. The MU shouldn't just based off of a single set though. It should be based off of multiple sets with different players. The problem with this though is that top level MKs outnumber every other top level character and match ups like these don't happen very often.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Youre actually having this discussion with the guy that did the 'intensive study' that you were aware existed

 

[Masky]

Youre actually having this discussion with the guy that did the 'intensive study' that you were aware existed

That was an analysis of "perfect planking" mostly, not "imperfect planking" which is what we're talking about

 

[DMG]

Some aspects of MK planking has answers, even if it's character specific. However, there is no universal counter or character vs planking that can SOUNDLY defeat it to the point where MK does not need to be limited on the edge.

MK obtains an extremely powerful position from the edge that other characters tend not to get, because his kit makes strong use of the edge. The edge even without invincibility is a strong position for MK to be in. However, getting invincibility is a major hindrance for stopping him from abusing the edge.

It would work both ways, an asset to be invincible for planking and for anti planking, except that you have noticeable edge grab lag. This lag is more beneficial to the planking side than the anti planking side hands down. In fact, the only upside of having lag when grabbing the edge is that you can naturally edge hog for longer. Because of this, using the very tool that turns MK into a monster on the edge, which is the edge itself, is fairly ineffective even for the stronger anti planking characters (Pikachu gets a strong mention because he bypasses some of the lag and gets to move sooner).

MK has 10+ options from the edge. Each of these options has an answer, but the criteria for being ABLE to meet that answer is so absurd that it's frankly not fair to tell someone "you have to predict ahead of time these exact responses, including delays mixups and anything else used to reasonably deviate in option, have a capable character (the list changes for each option, but remains small in all but a very select few cases), AND be in the correct position to punish that specific option (if you aren't in the right place "at the right time", you can't expect to punish the option made).

It's like a very skewed RPS. MK picks Rock, and it beats Scissors, plastic, brittle metal, wood stick, hand, and ONLY loses to a very specific sized brown parchment paper that not many places carry. AND you have to have this paper the exact instant he throws out rock. Paper too early and you just wasted it. Paper too late and Rock smashed into your face.

Even IF you're someone willing to drive down to that folsky old time shop with this hard to find paper, after all these trials and tribulations, MK doesn't EVEN HAVE TO THROW OUT ROCK.

That's what it feels like. I don't know how anybody could WILLINGLY want to be on the other end of that.

 

[Hippieslayer]

It's a lot easier for a lower tiered character main to be considered a top level player (for that character) seeing as how there are fewer examples of what a top level player of one of those character should look like. However, they still need to beat top level players to be considered top level players (overall). Being a top level character main does not automatically mean you are a top level player.

If these top level Fox players start to lose to those same top level MKs more than they win them, then maybe the MK just didn't really know the MU that well before and the MU really isn't as even as we thought it was. The MU shouldn't just based off of a single set though. It should be based off of multiple sets with different players. The problem with this though is that top level MKs outnumber every other top level character and match ups like these don't happen very often.

A lower tiered character mainer being considered a top player is just because of matchup inexperience.

Also top level MK's just outnumber every other top level character because MK is the best.

 

[Cassio]

It would work both ways, an asset to be invincible for planking and for anti planking, except that you have noticeable edge grab lag. This lag is more beneficial to the planking side than the anti planking side hands down. In fact, the only upside of having lag when grabbing the edge is that you can naturally edge hog for longer. Because of this, using the very tool that turns MK into a monster on the edge, which is the edge itself, is fairly ineffective even for the stronger anti planking characters.

I mostly agree, but in spite of the hinderance of the lag (and including the advantage of invincibility) wouldnt this last part depend on their offstage tools? For instance, if MK were to steal the ledge from MK, you dont think hed be in a good position to stop the planking MK? (I acknowledge even stealing the ledge itself is a feat).

 

[SaveMeJebus]

A lower tiered character mainer being considered a top player is just because of matchup inexperience.

Also top level MK's just outnumber every other top level character because MK is the best.

Not really. Top level players (overall) are top level players because they beat top level players. Character specific top level players are character specific top level players because they can beat certain players. Certain characters require the player to beat top level players in order to become a character specific top level player because of the bar that other character specific top level players have set

 

[DMG]

I mostly agree, but in spite of the hinderance of the lag (and including the advantage of invincibility) wouldnt this last part depend on their offstage tools? For instance, if MK were to steal the ledge from MK, you dont think hed be in a good position to stop the planking MK? (I acknowledge even stealing the ledge itself is a feat).

That depends on when he steals the edge, and vs what option he does it against. Even then, if MK had a reliable answer to his own planking while no one else did, the game would still be centralized over him. The better question is whether Pika, G&W, Marth, etc characters like that can stop him from planking or can do something from grabbing the edge.

Can they? Idk. Pika forces MK to "play better" as far as planking is concerned. He has to play more careful frame wise because Pika gets off the edge quicker. However on the downside, Pika doesn't have much downward aerial vs MK. He's probably better off trying to thunder while MK is lagging or try to have some setup.

 

[Ghostbone]

It's like a very skewed RPS. MK picks Rock, and it beats Scissors, plastic, brittle metal, wood stick, hand, and ONLY loses to a very specific sized brown parchment paper that not many places carry. AND you have to have this paper the exact instant he throws out rock. Paper too early and you just wasted it. Paper too late and Rock smashed into your face.

lol I like this example.

But more simply, let's pretend you and MK have 10 different options, each of MK's options beats 9 of yours, and only loses to 1.
Then take into consideration that whenever he wins, he gets double the reward you do.

You can win, you just won't.

 

[AllyKnight]

MM my Falcon. Let's go.

 

[FrenchToasts]

banned metaknight? you guys really that bad at the game or what LOL

 

[Flayl]

See these last two posts would make more sense in reverse order.

 

[ShadowLink84]

banned metaknight? you guys really that bad at the game or what LOL

MM my MetaKnight. Let's go.

Better b(^_^)b

 

[Ussi]

See these last two posts would make more sense in reverse order.

Ally just made a hard read

 

[Judo777]

It's a lot easier for a lower tiered character main to be considered a top level player (for that character) seeing as how there are fewer examples of what a top level player of one of those character should look like. However, they still need to beat top level players to be considered top level players (overall). Being a top level character main does not automatically mean you are a top level player.

If these top level Fox players start to lose to those same top level MKs more than they win them, then maybe the MK just didn't really know the MU that well before and the MU really isn't as even as we thought it was. The MU shouldn't just based off of a single set though. It should be based off of multiple sets with different players. The problem with this though is that top level MKs outnumber every other top level character and match ups like these don't happen very often.

Yes I know.... thats what I said. The biggest issue is that how can you base it off multiple sets when their are only like 3 notable people that play those characters and your actual definition of a top level player is beating top level players which is completely circular.

Oh Zeton lost to an MK? That's fine hes not top level.

Also your definition makes me want to ram my head into a wall. So how do we know TKD is really a top level player? Maybe he is a character specific top level player that only beats certain people..........

 

[Roller]

Maybe he is a character specific top level player that only beats certain people..........

He is.

 

[Clel]

Maybe the actual ruleset of this game should be changed to nerf planking. We should scrap ledge grab limits and the like, and play the game a different way where planking can still be done but it's effectiveness will be lessened.

 

[DMG]

The only way I can think of doing that is specifically altering the stage list to stages that don't favor planking/are missing edges. Anything else besides "agreeing" not to plank would basically be altering the ruleset to nerf planking. Using a LGL itself is changing the ruleset or using a different ruleset to nerf planking. Idk what specifically you mean by that.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Yes I know.... thats what I said. The biggest issue is that how can you base it off multiple sets when their are only like 3 notable people that play those characters and your actual definition of a top level player is beating top level players which is completely circular.

Oh Zeton lost to an MK? That's fine hes not top level.

Also your definition makes me want to ram my head into a wall. So how do we know TKD is really a top level player? Maybe he is a character specific top level player that only beats certain people..........

Why would it matter if TKD was a character specific top level player or an overall top level payer when using him as an example of the Fox vs. MK match up?

Zeaton is considered a top Fox player. His loses against MK should count

 

[Thino]

Maybe the actual ruleset of this game should be changed to nerf planking. We should scrap ledge grab limits and the like, and play the game a different way where planking can still be done but it's effectiveness will be lessened.

The only way I can think of doing that is specifically altering the stage list to stages that don't favor planking/are missing edges. Anything else besides "agreeing" not to plank would basically be altering the ruleset to nerf planking. Using a LGL itself is changing the ruleset or using a different ruleset to nerf planking. Idk what specifically you mean by that.

What I still dont understand is why planking needs to be nerfed in first place.

@DMG : MK's planking is the hardest to deal with that's for sure, but its also beatable, and even you seem to agree with that despite the fact that in your last few post you're theorycrafting about the number of options that MK has from the ledge.

It's humanly possible for some characters to beat MK's planking as well as is it humanly possible for a MK player to use the wrong option out of the ledge.

That is my argument, a technique, a tool or a character have to be unbeatable to be banned, limited or nerfed, and this is clearly not the case here, this is why I think the ruleset doesn't need either MK ban or a LGL.

 

[infiniteV115]

You see the problem is, nothing will ever be literally unbeatable.
Unless it was like as soon as the match starts, the game goes to the results screen on the first frame and MK is named the victor. Or something like that.

 

[DMG]

But the wrong options from the edge tend to still be incredibly strong due to position/invincibility he gets, and doing a wrong option doesn't mean the other guy is or would reasonably be capable of punishing it.

What about over-centralization? MK allowed to endlessly plank at the VERY least heavily degrades the game and would easily turn the game into not only heavy MK usage but heavy planking. Would that not be bannable or in need of a limit despite being some "slim" degree of beatable?

What degree of "beatable" would his planking have to be for it to be acceptable or unacceptable? Because I can guarantee you not every "shade" of the word beatable is the same. At a certain point you cross the line of what's reasonable to expect someone to have to go through to beat something when doing all of this won't even guarantee some accurate or desirable test of skill. Oh MK only 8-2's the cast instead of 100-0 when he gets to plank, we should still allow it and let it kill the game. No screw that.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Same thing with other characters' planking. It's not unbeatable but it could centralize the game around ledge play. If they remove the LGL, then they should also legalize stages with walk offs

 

[da K.I.D.]

there arent any other characters that centralise the entire game around ledge play.

G watch and pit have certain matchups that are based around ledge play, but 1. its not like that for every single matchup they have, and 2. its not good enough to convince/force other people that dont really play those characters to pick him up specifically to do just that.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Once you get the stock lead, there is really no reason not to plank. The ledge is one of the safest places in the game and by planking, you put your opponent in a high risk low reward situation.

 

[DMG]

Not every character is strong at the edge, and even the strong characters on the edge it's not absolutely clear that they would over-centralize the game.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

But the same could be said about walk off stages. We don't have character specific bans on walk off stages. Why should a character with horrible grab range lose a perfectly good stage because other characters are too powerful there? It all comes down to what is the most easily enforceable, A character specific LGL or a universal LGL or in the case of walk offs, Character specific stage bans or the banning of stages with permanent walk offs.

 

[Clel]

Rather than limit planking with an edge guard limit, make it to where planking will reduce your chances of winning should you choose to plank.

I'd suggest items, since to take advantage of them you need stage control, and you're not controlling the stage if you're planking. If you are planking and want to take advantage of them you'd have to get back on stage.

Or maybe the light gravity mode would be more optimal, it may hamper the ability to plank or help others go off stage and punish it.