Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[Cassio]

Gnes I dont mean youre lying. I mean your posts sound like something M2K would say in defending his own character only for everyone to shut him down.

The results to come will speak one way or the other. But I suspect "almost" losing and "magic mid tiers" wont suffice to convince people of an even MU as it did not wtih metaknight.

edit: fyi Im not saying youre uninformed either, only that you should considered there may have been more truth to what MK mains were saying when they "underplayed" their character since this looks like a familiar position.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

How many top level Diddys are there compered to top level MKs?

That is not the question. Who have won more? Do not dodge the point again. Answer the original question.

I want proof that Diddy has won a reasonable amount compared to MK. Show me the data. Top Level players are not the only players, and every player who plays counts. Full. Data.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

That is not the question. Who have won more? Do not dodge the point again. Answer the original question.

I want proof that Diddy has won a reasonable amount compared to MK. Show me the data. Top Level players are not the only players, and every player who plays counts. Full. Data.

There are more MK mains than there are Diddy mains so of coarse MK is going to win more. If there were more Diddy's or Snakes than top level MKs, then those charatcers would have more wins then MK especially when you consider the fact that MK's metagame would not be as developed as the other two character's metagame would be

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

There are more MK mains than there are Diddy mains so of coarse MK is going to win more. If there were more Diddy's or Snakes than top level MKs, then those charatcers would have more wins then MK especially when you consider the fact that MK's metagame would not be as developed as the other two character's metagame would be

You're dodging the point again. Who has won more? I do not care who was played more. Who won more? Give me statistics here. Prove that Diddy is up to par with MK or close to as you say he is. Provide it. Likewise, "top player" does not matter at the end with who won the most. I am not talking about the match-ups or the tier list here. I am talking about the winning itself. Even a non-top level player can pull out a win sometimes. As I said, statistics.

I'd respond to the metagame statement, but that would be acknowledging that it was part of the point here.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

You're dodging the point again. Who has won more? I do not care who was played more. Who won more? Give me statistics here. Prove that Diddy is up to par with MK or close to as you say he is. Provide it. Likewise, "top player" does not matter at the end with who won the most. I am not talking about the match-ups or the tier list here. I am talking about the winning itself. Even a non-top level player can pull out a win sometimes. As I said, statistics.

I'd respond to the metagame statement, but that would be acknowledging that it was part of the point here.

I did answer. MK has won more because There are more MK players than there are Diddy Kong players. This has more to do with the players than it does with the character.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I did answer. MK has won more because There are more MK players than there are Diddy Kong players. This has more to do with the players than it does with the character.

there are more MK players then everything else because the character OP to a bannable degree.

 

[Cassio]

there are more MK players then everything else because the character OP to a bannable degree.

I approve of the way this was worded.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

there are more MK players then everything else because the character OP to a bannable degree.

Is he the only character that can win a tournament? No. There are other characters that go even with him and can beat him so he is not bannable.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I did answer. MK has won more because There are more MK players than there are Diddy Kong players. This has more to do with the players than it does with the character.

Not a good enough answer. The character is in question, not the player.

Give me the entire amount of Diddy and MK players. Then give me their exact amount of tourney wins. Then I can actually show the percentage of difference using my math skills.(or a calculator) I'm actually trying to see if your point is correct, but you will not give me the data to prove it.

And it really has more to do with the character. Just because a character is played more doesn't guarantee a win. Let me put it this way: Let's say in every tournament, 1 person played MK, and the rest played Ganondorf. How often is Ganondorf going to win? Rarely. Percentage used has nothing to do with Percentage winned. They are not the same, and while possibly somewhat related, they are not dependent on eachother whatsoever.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Not a good enough answer. The character is in question, not the player.

Give me the entire amount of Diddy and MK players. Then give me their exact amount of tourney wins. Then I can actually show the percentage of difference using my math skills.(or a calculator) I'm actually trying to see if your point is correct, but you will not give me the data to prove it.

And it really has more to do with the character. Just because a character is played more doesn't guarantee a win. Let me put it this way: Let's say in every tournament, 1 person played MK, and the rest played Ganondorf. How often is Ganondorf going to win? Rarely. Percentage used has nothing to do with Percentage winned. They are not the same, and while possibly somewhat related, they are not dependent on eachother whatsoever.

How could the players not be in question? It's not like MK is being controlled by computers.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

How could the players not be in question? It's not like MK is being controlled by computers that had no choice but to use him.

They're not the ones being banned here. MK's the problem, not the players. Now give me the statistics. Every time you dodge it, you just prove me right. Do you get how debating works? You must answer the question exactly, or you concede. I am waiting for the statistics here. It's not hard to dig up "MK total players + Total Wins" VS "Diddy Kong Total players + Total Wins". Take your time. Instead of dodging the point, you should be looking for this.

The thing is, I could believe you if Diddy players actually won a reasonable amount VS MK's winnings as well. But until you can provide me PROOF, you can't prove me wrong.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Ok, then. If MK is so broken, then how come it's only the top players that other top level plyers have trouble with. Why don't you ever see some random player take sets off of top level players with MK. If this is really a character problem and not a player problem, then we should be seeing a lot of this.

 

[Orion*]

Viability is already a poor excuse. If they were viable, we would see very few MK's, and he would not be winning most tourneys. And that means the players wouldn't as good with MK, or the rules were different.

wtf are you talking about i dont even have time to read the rest of your post but this is ******** already jesus

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Ok, then. If MK is so broken, then how come it's only the top players that other top level plyers have trouble with. Why don't you ever see some random player take sets off of top level players with MK. If this is really a character problem and not a player problem, then we should be seeing a lot of this.

Too bad it actually does happen. Unknown players bring out pocket MK's all the time. Also, it depends how you define top level. Which makes that point too subjective to matter. MK has always been a problem because the character is a problem. He's also quite well known as both S AND God Tier for a reason. This also heavily contradicts your point. If MK's winning because of more players, as you say he is, then their skill level is not in question, their quantity is. Do you realize how badly your hurt your reasoning?

Let me spell it out for you: You say only top level players matter. But you also say MK is only winning because of more players. Pick your argument and stick to it. Which is it? Is MK only winning because people are good with him, or is he winning because there's more players?

Now stop dodging the damn point and show me the data. Until then, you're just trolling.

 

[DMG]

I can take at least games off strong players with MK vs non MK characters. Usually also involves a gay CP like Brinstar or RC though. But hey, what fun is there if you COULDN'T gimp someone on RC.

Mostly an abuse of the CP system lol.

 

[Doc King]

Jebus, we told you a million times as to why mk was banned. And you just keep on ignoring us and just say some random crap and say you're right when you're not. That's not a good way to debate and prove stuff. A good way would be what John#'s did with his data.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Jebus, some very friendly advice. You need to back up your point first. The second we challenge is, you need to provide the data. I have conceded here because I cannot back up certain things. But if you cannot back up anything, you also concede. I certainly hope you're spending your time finding the statistics.

I will be honest: I do not mind being proven wrong on the data. But I want to see it to actually MAKE SURE it's correct or not. Because if you cannot validate your point, you immediately lose.

Whether or not you want to keep trying to prove MK is not a problem(which he is anyway, as you can tell by the pages here, and many reasons for him to stay banned, and the fact that they think he's a problem). In other words, something's a problem when someone believes it is. And most people believe he is. You cannot factually prove anything in this case. You can only go with data and interpret it.

Likewise, the money data? It just proves MK is beyond the best without a doubt. You citing that only helps OUR points.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I am now Pro-ban.

Go ahead. Ask me why.

 

[Doc King]

I am now Pro-ban.

Go ahead. Ask me why.

Is it because of Jebus?

 

[Life]

Devil's advocate? (I only argue pro-ban for fun, I really don't care if it doesn't work out)

Or did you just win something stupidly?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Is it because of Jebus?

Don't get me wrong, some pro-ban people like you and HyperFalcon are pretty bad. But Jebus... ****. That's just painful. He's basically making Pro-ban's arguments for them. I can't stand next to that guy. I just can't. Can't do it. It makes me want to jump out the window just thinking about it.

 

[Ussi]

Pro-ban argument against anti-ban: You have Jebus on your side


in seriousness, is that really it? I find that funny

 

[Life]

Waitwaitwait.

SMASHBOARDS HISTORY IN THE MAKING GUYS!!

Jebus convinced BPC of something!

THE END IS NIGH!

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I can take at least games off strong players with MK vs non MK characters. Usually also involves a gay CP like Brinstar or RC though. But hey, what fun is there if you COULDN'T gimp someone on RC.

Mostly an abuse of the CP system lol.

Then that's why we should get rid of those stages

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Then that's why we should get rid of those stages

How's the data coming along? And no, that's a terrible reason.

If only one CHARACTER can use it to gimp, then it's the character that is the problem, not the stages.

Do not use those two in conjunction with MK. If they're a problem, it's because they're a problem. MK is not why they were a problem and in question. I've read your topics about it before, and I agree they're a problem, but not because of MK.

I am waiting for you to provide me the data that will prove your point.(providing it does)

 

[SaveMeJebus]

How's the data coming along? And no, that's a terrible reason.

If only one CHARACTER can use it to gimp, then it's the character that is the problem, not the stages.

Do not use those two in conjunction with MK. If they're a problem, it's because they're a problem. MK is not why they were a problem and in question. I've read your topics about it before, and I agree they're a problem, but not because of MK.

I am waiting for you to provide me the data that will prove your point.(providing it does)

Why would I need to get any data? I agree that MK has more wins than Diddy. You just don't agree that there are more top level MKs than there are top level Diddys

 

[da K.I.D.]

Is he the only character that can win a tournament? No. There are other characters that go even with him and can beat him so he is not bannable.

Just because it is possible for him to lose all 3 of his stocked before his opponent, doesnt in anyway mean that hes still not OverPowered enough to be bannable.

Ok, then. If MK is so broken, then how come it's only the top players that other top level plyers have trouble with. Why don't you ever see some random player take sets off of top level players with MK. If this is really a character problem and not a player problem, then we should be seeing a lot of this.

it happens, but its a relatively common occurance so it doesnt get publicised like that. I mean, it happened to me at my last tournament last week, and I made a big stink about it in the results thread, but after that I got over it, because its just one of those things that just happens.

Then that's why we should get rid of those stages

Get rid of the stages because the bannable character is too good on them... right. Good plan.

and for BPC

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Why would I need to get any data? I agree that MK has more wins than Diddy. You just don't agree that there are more top level MKs than there are top level Diddys

I did not ask for top level's. I am talking about how much MORE MK wins over Diddy. We know MK wins more than anyone. The top level isn't the point, the character is. Also, the thing about top level? The more people that win are the ones who are the ultimate top level. That means if MK wins the most, then there are more top level MK by default. Top level means you're the best.

If MK is winning the most, then it's not very hard to believe that the best just happens to be the MK players too. Let me put it this way: The number of players do not matter here. All that matters is who actually wins. And the thing is, no matter how you define top level, winning the most isn't subjective. That's what actually happened.

I want the date to show exactly if Diddy still wins a reasonable amount compared to MK. For example, if MK wins 30% of all tourneys, and Diddy wins 25%, then that means that MK isn't largely better than Diddy, which you claim. But if the difference is 25% and, say, 15%, that's a huge difference. That's my point. I want to actually know if Diddy is the second best character by a small margin as you honestly claim. I want to validate that claim.

The fact of the matter is, you doing this actually may HELP your claim. But you refusing to do this only proves me right. Now, show the data. The fun part is, I have somebody else on it just in case you keep dodging the point.

Shorthand version: I want to know how much MK wins more than Diddy. Just to make sure what you said is true and that Diddy is actually only somewhat weaker than MK.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I was talking about match ups, not money and when it comes to match ups, Diddy Kong isn't even the second best. Even then, he's not that much worse than MK

 

[Doc King]

Don't get me wrong, some pro-ban people like you and HyperFalcon are pretty bad. But Jebus... ****. That's just painful. He's basically making Pro-ban's arguments for them. I can't stand next to that guy. I just can't. Can't do it. It makes me want to jump out the window just thinking about it.

lol. I wouldn't blame you for not wanting to be on Jebus's side.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I was talking about match ups, not money and when it comes to match ups, Diddy Kong isn't even the second best. Even then, he's not that much worse than MK

Show me the data to prove this then. Match-ups are extremely subjective.

Who wins the most tournaments is a clear-cut data allotment.

The Tier List is subjective. What is NOT is the total amount of winners.

The reason I asked for the total amount of players(not just mains, since every player counts anyway), and the total wins is try to and create reasonable data to make SURE that the amount of players has some relevance on the wins. Which is what you actually originally said. But then you said they only win because of the top players. The problem is, as I said before, two completely different points. What is your argument here? Is it because of more players, or is it because of the best players?

If it's best players, then you can you give me the amount of top players(by your definition) of both, and their total tourneys wins using those exact characters. I do not need names, just numbers. I don't think you understand that I am actually giving you a good chance to prove me wrong here, but you REFUSE to do it.

 

[djdevil96]

I'm so happy to see MK finally banned. That mofo ledge hogged me twice in a tournament at my school!

 

[Life]

Props to Jebus for taking the high road and ignoring us when we bash him though. Guy's persistent even when he's wrong.

 

[Tommy_G]

I'm so happy to see MK finally banned. That mofo ledge hogged me twice in a tournament at my school!

The future of the Smash community.

 

[DMG]

???

Did you really take the time out of your day to make that post? You know he was probably trolling/sarcastic right?

 

[Tommy_G]

???

Did you really take the time out of your day to make that post? You know he was probably trolling/sarcastic right?

The current smash community.

 

[DMG]

Damn proud of it. I bet you feed in League.

Huehuehue

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Props to Jebus for taking the high road and ignoring us when we bash him though. Guy's persistent even when he's wrong.

Which is funny because I've been trying to help him here. I've only been giving him tips and wanting to get a clear argument from here.

To put it this way: Many people are just annoying are on ignore. Jebus never got that far. As much as I facepalm at times, I think if used... good logic, he could get somewhere. I've even tried to get data using his own rules, to maybe help see his point. ...Which means either he's doing that right now, or he decided to give up.

 

[Judo777]

The same thing goes for brawl. You have MK at the top, then you have the characters that do the best against him and have very few bad match ups. It's not like Brawl's list of tournament viable characters ends at MK

No, No it doesn't. Brawl has 1 character in top tier, and 1 character that the entire game revolves around.

Olimar is a high tier character despite the fact that he gets wrecked by Falco, Wario is a top tier despite the fact that he loses handily to Marth. Pikachu is high tier even tho he has some rougher MU's with characters like Diddy Kong. Conversely Rob, a character who has good MU's with ALL of top tier except MK (who he gets wrecked by) is bumped all the way down in mid tier, why? Because MK is all that matters. Same goes for TL.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Lets see what happens. MK being banned can only benefit me.