Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[da K.I.D.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PQOkCA3Knk

pikachu fox isnt as bad as its made out to be.

also, im not an expert on the rob zss matchup but im pretty sure its not +3 for zss, since rob can actually outspace down smash along with most other moves of hers

 

[SaveMeJebus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PQOkCA3Knk

pikachu fox isnt as bad as its made out to be.

also, im not an expert on the rob zss matchup but im pretty sure its not +3 for zss, since rob can actually outspace down smash along with most other moves of hers

Just because a match up is -3 doesn't mean it's unwinnable.

 

[Cassio]

-4s are unwinnable. -3's are pretty horrid too though. Fox vs pika is a -3. ehhh, it can still be doable with more MU knowledge and skill.

Um one less -3 IS a big jump??? Like that is a MU most people can't cope with. Did you see stingers post? Even with Snake, Diddy, IC's, Marth, -1 with Pika, Wario, -2 Falco Olimar (forget Olimar is top tier). That's pretty spectacular, and I don't even think anyone in high tier has a better spread (except maybe Tink who everyone thinks will get a big boost, and Zss).

Also why does ANYONE think Olimar will get a boost from MK being gone? Olimar has a good MK MU already, you know who he doesn't have good MU's with? Falco, Marth and IC's........ who will almost certainly see more use now.

And yes D3 is a (relatively easy) pocket character, and that's what secondaries are for. I'm sorry but very rarely will anyone below top tier (and even some in top tier) not need a secondary, its a competative fighter you need secondaries.

lol, sorry but that MU spread is arse compared to a real top tier. Not to mention intangibles like versatility which allow characters to manage their tougher MUs, something ROB and most mid-tiers lack in comparison to their top tier peers. That sort of MU spread wont take you far into bracket without being well above your opponents skill level.

Mid tiers are really overstating the benefit theyll get with MK banned except for Ike and probably TL/peach. Even then theyll get a boost but people are blowing it way out of proportion.

They are not mutually exclusive.

They are exclusive.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Just because a match up is -3 doesn't mean it's unwinnable.

I like the fact where you just came up, posted a random vid of a fox beating an MK as proof of the matchup being even, and when I do the same thing somehow you still think pika vs fox is -3.

Thats why nobody likes you.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You know, D3 vs. ROB is manageable without a LGL...

Just saiyan

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I like the fact where you just came up, posted a random vid of a fox beating an MK as proof of the matchup being even, and when I do the same thing somehow you still think pika vs fox is -3.

Thats why nobody likes you.

I never said it wasn't doable. I don't know where you got that from. Also, I didn't just post one vid.

 

[Conviction]

That stops working after a certain percentage against Fox and that match up is even.)

Actually it's Fox's favor derp.

Thats why nobody likes you.

I died here.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I never said it wasn't doable. I don't know where you got that from. Also, I didn't just post one vid.

none of this is even responding to my post that you quoted. like by reading this statement I dont even know why you quoted my post...

 

[SaveMeJebus]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13709562&postcount=6564

It make about as much sense as you quoting me on this and then writing what you wrote

 

[da K.I.D.]

Im calling you out for having god awful logic, everyone else got it but you.

The only difference is when you went around poppin off at the mouth and said this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfOL97EZ7pc

To all you who doubt this is an even MU

You tried to cover your behind after the fact and throw all this addition BS around to back your point.



Also, Id like to point out that in the time I spent trying to find that post, I realised that the last ... 70 pages of this thread has just been everyone in the world arguing with jebus....

Personally, Im done with this, and Jebus is about to be the first person not on the sonic boards to catch an invite to my ignore list. This mess is rediculous and non sensical. At least BPC is consistent and uses something that resembles logic and a cohesive thought process when he posts.

 

[DMG]

Jebus, how would that have gone if he didn't get Greedy and try to Shuttle loop him off the top of Lylat?

His lead up to that point was actually fairly solid.

Other games looked better.

 

[Luigi player]

ROB going even with Diddy?

 

[Cassio]

Apparently half of mid-tier goes even with diddy.

 

[DMG]

Same with MK too





Huehue

 

[Eddie G]

Well when a character's most effective tool can actually be used against him, it tends to yield effects like that. I don't recall being able to actively gimp MK at 50 (unless I get a fortunate grab with Marth at the right spot or something).

 

[stingers]

ROB going even with Diddy?

lol don't talk when you don't have the experience to back it up.
me personally, I'm not going to go off on the ROB vs. Bowser MU because I've never fought a good Bowser and there are plenty of people much more experienced in it then I am (Holy and KingKong for example could tell u how that MU goes pretty well)
And you personally, seeing as how you live in europe I can tell you've never played a good ROB before, so you should leave the MU to people who actually know how it works (because we all know nobody likes theorycrafters)

also, ROB/ZSS is like -1.5 ROB lol. no ZSS I've ever faced has even ever gone for it against me before =p but even without it ROB loses to ZSS so really, its really just icing on the cake for them should they choose to learn it

 

[Chuee]

Jebus, how would that have gone if he didn't get Greedy and try to Shuttle loop him off the top of Lylat?

Didn't rain win that match though?

 

[DMG]

He won that game yeah. The point was that game should not have been nearly as close as it was. Was a fairly close 2-1 set, not a holy balls MK is losing every game and barely clutched 1 game out of the set.



Either way, I'm not a believer of Fox truly going even with MK. I think you have a much better case to make with characters like Diddy and IC's before Fox.

 

[Judo777]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCAaOhH6UUg

R.O.B should be -3 against ZSS

Yea and Snake D3 should be -3 or -4 Snake right? The fox pikachu thing isn't a fair assessment either. Fox Pika is around -3 because its a 0-death cg (or close to it).......... on an already top tier character. That's a big deal.

-4s are unwinnable. -3's are pretty horrid too though. Fox vs pika is a -3. ehhh, it can still be doable with more MU knowledge and skill.

lol, sorry but that MU spread is arse compared to a real top tier. Not to mention intangibles like versatility which allow characters to manage their tougher MUs, something ROB and most mid-tiers lack in comparison to their top tier peers. That sort of MU spread wont take you far into bracket without being well above your opponents skill level.

Mid tiers are really overstating the benefit theyll get with MK banned except for Ike and probably TL/peach. Even then theyll get a boost but people are blowing it way out of proportion.

They are exclusive.

Wait Peach getting a huge buff from MK being gone? What? Her worst MU's are against like Falco and Snake how will MK being gone give her a huge buff compared to Rob? And no duh Rob's MKless MU's wont be as good as top tiers, they are TOP tiers. Rob is MID tier. But having a MU spread that good in mid tier is pretty awesome. Like I said its better than a lot of HIGH tiers (NOT TOP TIERS). Actually according to the charts right now his spread is about as good as Pika's with MK gone (not too far off) so NO that spread is actually pretty good even compared to a top tier.

 

[Cassio]

deeeaaaaad at comparing ROB to top tiers. He loses to virtually every high tier with absolutely no advantages and questionable evens on characters like diddy. How does a character with 6 -3's/-2's alone compare with a character that has 6 disadvantages overall? Even comparing him to peach it looks bad.

complete speculation on my part but imo the only reason some characters think they do well against characters like oli, diddy, or ICs is because their players dont consistently get far enough into bracket to realize how bad these MU's are for them when played at a high level.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Yea and Snake D3 should be -3 or -4 Snake right? The fox pikachu thing isn't a fair assessment either. Fox Pika is around -3 because its a 0-death cg (or close to it).......... on an already top tier character. That's a big deal.

DDD doesn't have an infinite on Snake. ZSS has an infinite on R.O.B and from what Stingers said, the match up is already hard enough without the infinite.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

WHY CAN WE NOT BAN PEOPLE FOR BEING STUPID?

caps

DDD does infinite Snake btw, LOL

 

[Psychoace]

Falcon > R.O.B.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEDzEkUf3Zo

 

[SaveMeJebus]

WHY CAN WE NOT BAN PEOPLE FOR BEING STUPID?

caps

DDD does infinite Snake btw, LOL

No he doesn't. If your talking about this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUtUo7jOGGU
then you are wrong because it stales after a certain amount of throws

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Similar to the CG on Samus/Mario/etc...

 

[stingers]

deeeaaaaad at comparing ROB to top tiers. He loses to virtually every high tier with absolutely no advantages and questionable evens on characters like diddy. How does a character with 6 -3's/-2's alone compare with a character that has 6 disadvantages overall? Even comparing him to peach it looks bad.

ROB has no -3's except MAYBE MK
he loses to ddd and falco -2
so 0 + 2 = 6? loool smh

 

[Life]

All D3 needs to infinite Snake is enough time to fit a pummel in. Which means it doesn't work given a) Snake is at low percents and b) Snake is mashing sufficiently quickly.

However, it's enough.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Similar to the CG on Samus/Mario/etc...

Well, lets not forget that his infinite on Snake is almost impossible to consistently do whereas ZSS's on R.O.B is easy once you land the first D-smash.

 

[Chuee]

He won that game yeah. The point was that game should not have been nearly as close as it was. Was a fairly close 2-1 set, not a holy balls MK is losing every game and barely clutched 1 game out of the set.

He still destroyed him the other 2 games though.

 

[infiniteV115]

im bringing this up, because one goofy random lock does not always decide a matchup. there are other factors beside 'i hit you with this move and i win. +3 matchup'

Doesn't Fox lose -3 to Sheik? Or is that because he would lose even without the ftilt lock?

 

[Conviction]

LOL. It would be even without the lock.

 

[da K.I.D.]

and if you look at my quote I said 'not always'. Some times it does, but those times are few and far between.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

and if you look at my quote I said 'not always'. Some times it does, but those times are few and far between.

Wario's chain grab on DK and Wolf. Pikachu's chaingrab on Falco, Fox and Wolf. Marth grab release on Ness and Lucas. DDD's infinites on Bowser, DK, Luigi, Mario and Samus and I know there are more

 

[da K.I.D.]

Im pretty sure DDD beat Bowser, Samus, mario and luigi pretty hard even without the infinite.

Pikachus Cg on falco and wolf is not matchup defining.

If one random lock, chain or move determined matchups, then the ICs would go at least +3 with everybody.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Im pretty sure DDD beat Bowser, Samus, mario and luigi pretty hard even without the infinite.

Pretty much this. It influences a match-up to be sure, but it doesn't define it. Not in the slightest. You have to weigh in everything else too.

Give it up, Jebus.

Smooth Criminal

 

[PrincessPeach~]

Although MK had some unfair advantages, I don't see the necessity in banning him. All characters have strengths and weaknesses, and if the company didn't want unfairness in competitions, he never should have been put in Brawl.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Although MK had some unfair advantages, I don't see the necessity in banning him. All characters have strengths and weaknesses, and if the company didn't want unfairness in competitions, he never should have been put in Brawl.

Sakurai didn't want competitions, though. But he even admitted that he didn't do a good job of balancing Brawl, though.(no, I'm not saying he's saying that MK was too powerful or anything like that, just that he admitted balancing wasn't his forte)

Also... what weaknesses does MK have? That's what I'm honestly wondering.

 

[Hive]

yea I don't think we should really give a about what sakurai wanted the game to be, what it has become to us is so far removed from the author's intentions (and that's not a bad thing)

 

[Doc King]

I like the fact where you just came up, posted a random vid of a fox beating an MK as proof of the matchup being even, and when I do the same thing somehow you still think pika vs fox is -3.

Thats why nobody likes you.

^

Yea and Snake D3 should be -3 or -4 Snake right? The fox pikachu thing isn't a fair assessment either. Fox Pika is around -3 because its a 0-death cg (or close to it).......... on an already top tier character. That's a big deal.



Wait Peach getting a huge buff from MK being gone? What? Her worst MU's are against like Falco and Snake how will MK being gone give her a huge buff compared to Rob? And no duh Rob's MKless MU's wont be as good as top tiers, they are TOP tiers. Rob is MID tier. But having a MU spread that good in mid tier is pretty awesome. Like I said its better than a lot of HIGH tiers (NOT TOP TIERS). Actually according to the charts right now his spread is about as good as Pika's with MK gone (not too far off) so NO that spread is actually pretty good even compared to a top tier.

Only if D3's master it. It's like +1/0 for D3 without it (+1 if there are more gimmicky stages and 0 if not so many).

DDD doesn't have an infinite on Snake. ZSS has an infinite on R.O.B and from what Stingers said, the match up is already hard enough without the infinite.

D3 does have an infinite on Snake. It's the buffered pivot grab infinite.

Jebus, don't take every infinite as a thing that's gonna completely change the matchup. Diddy beats D3 even though D3 has an infinite on him. D3 has a slope infinite dash dance pivot chain grab on Wario but the matchup is still definitely tolerable for Wario overall.

No he doesn't. If your talking about this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUtUo7jOGGU
then you are wrong because it stales after a certain amount of throws

But, if at high percents, you can pummel without them escaping. Also, you can use your waddle dee's to stop the move from staling.

ROB has no -3's except MAYBE MK
he loses to ddd and falco -2
so 0 + 2 = 6? loool smh

Rob vs. D3 isn't as bad as ppl put it to be. Rob actually has air control and D3 lacks good finishers on ROB. The matchup is still D3's favor, but it's not something like an autowin.

 

[tekkie]

Pikachus Cg on falco and wolf is not matchup defining.

what do you mean matchup defining? without a CG pikachu probably loses to both fox and wolf but with it he ***** them. if a pikachu knows the MU well enough to get grabs in that turns the MU in his favor so hard