Metaknight iz zo brokn!!!!!!!!!!!!

[da K.I.D.]

no i dont and that ness thing is accurate now

 

[Rogue Pit]

Pit should be on the list for utilt, According to frame data, it comes out in 3frames, it has 3 hitboxs. The bottom hitbox shield pokes, and raises the person upward into the next two hits. All together it deals 16% damage and put people directly above you giving pit the position to Uair.

Pit's Fsmash I would say would be the best in game. Not just because it's the fastest but it's knockback is sufficent.

For Dairs, most likely Kirby should be on the list. He's a muilti-jump character with the ability to meteor. Much like Fox's dair is you space/time it right you can get a free Fsmash I'm pretty sure.

Edit: What about dthrow and uthrow?
Also For Down+B. I see some goods ones like Wolf's Reflector and GW's bucket. I think Pit's Shield deserves to be on it. Much like Mario's Cape it can reflect recoveries, Such as ones that deal damage like almost everyone's in the game. Space's Animals Up+B, Fire emblems, Earthbound kids, Metaknight, Dk and much others. It's one of the best gimping things in the game.

 

[Rudementry]

For Dairs, most likely Kirby should be on the list. He's a muilti-jump character with the ability to meteor. Much like Fox's dair is you space/time it right you can get a free Fsmash I'm pretty sure.

Fox dairing into fsmash? Pointless, if you can fsmash than you can upsmash, which is extremely circumstancial. The enemy's shield has to be very deteriorated and it actually has to put them into a "tripping" frame (only happens when you dair at high %s) then you can upsmash. Otherwise whatever you do gets grabbed and then shielded. What you can do is dair into a grab (if they don't grab you before you grab them, and this method is actually is not in your favor as they have a much bigger time frame to grab you in) or dair a little bit over their head so they're not facing you and then up tilt, but even that can be blocked. Brawl fox sucks .

 

[Disfunkshunal]

toonlinks d-smash should be higher, under 20% its always sets up a good gimp

 

[-Mars-]

on topic, kirby, ike, wolf fox and pit all have CGs with their f-throw

No they don't they only have tech chases.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i dont know if wolfs is inescapable but the other ones are all confirmed inescapable chain grabs on certain characters.

i know foxs works on D3, bowser and falco
pits works on various characters
ikes turns into an infinite on walls,
and ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?
kirbys f-throw ISNT A CG!?!?
you can 0-death spacies with it, are you out of your mind!?

 

[-Mars-]

i dont know if wolfs is inescapable but the other ones are all confirmed inescapable chain grabs on certain characters.

i know foxs works on D3, bowser and falco
pits works on various characters
ikes turns into an infinite on walls,
and ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?
kirbys f-throw ISNT A CG!?!?
you can 0-death spacies with it, are you out of your mind!?

Lol, I meant to edit my post to include that I was mostly referring to Fox and Wolf.

I know Kirbys fthrow is a chaingrab.

Pits only works on a very select few of the cast.

I play Fox and i'm able to get two grabs off on Falco every now and then, so if you consider that a chaingrab.......I guess so.

I'm pretty sure Wolfs run speed is to slow for it to be a guaranteed follow up.

Ike's is an infinite, not a chaingrab. On FD you can't use it aa a CG so it isn't one.

 

[da K.I.D.]

thats kind of lame that its an infinite but not a CG why does that happen? does ike run to slow or some thing?

and wolfs... i dont know, i can sometimes get 2 or 3 off when i play snakes at low damage, but i cant tell if thats b/c its inescable or if my opponent just isnt reacting to it.
but all of that is kind of a tangent to the point which is who has the best forward throws
i would definitely put up wolfs because even its not a CG theres a rediculous amount of mixups that can be started from it, and at the edge it can set up for some sexy spikes

 

[Minwu]

Yoshi can Fthrow CG. Also, Move Ness' Bthrow up. It kills ~ 100 percent at the edge of FD.

 

[Swordplay]

surprised links dair did not make this list.....
Im also surprised IC dsmash made the list. t

 

[-Mars-]

thats kind of lame that its an infinite but not a CG why does that happen? does ike run to slow or some thing?

and wolfs... i dont know, i can sometimes get 2 or 3 off when i play snakes at low damage, but i cant tell if thats b/c its inescable or if my opponent just isnt reacting to it.
but all of that is kind of a tangent to the point which is who has the best forward throws
i would definitely put up wolfs because even its not a CG theres a rediculous amount of mixups that can be started from it, and at the edge it can set up for some sexy spikes

The reason you are able to do that is because your opponent is doing what most players do immediately after being thrown. He is either doing nothing or shielding, both of which enable you to get another grab off. If your opponent simply spotdodged or rolled away, you wouldn't be able to get even a second grab off as Fox, Wolf, and Ike.

Wolf players don't even use their fthrow. They only use dthrow and occassionally a bthrow. Why would we put that as one of the top 10 moves when the people that play the character don't even use the move.

 

[Minwu]

FSes:

1. Sonic
2. Falco
3. Wolf
4. Fox
5. Marth
6. Zelda
7. Sheik
8. Ganondorf
9. ????
10. PROFIT

 

[cj.Shark]

octopus > marth zelda sheik
also robs lasertime is right below octo

 

[Dajayman]

I can't believe Ganon's dair is considered better than Ness'. The only thing Ganon's spike has on Ness' spike is the damage it does. Other than that Ness' is quicker, has around the same knockback (capable of killing at very low %s like Ganon), and has a sourspot late in the dair that sends people flying to the side which will more often than not be the daired victims doom if Ness was going for the off-stage spike.

For up-b, what is this based on? Recovery? Offensive uses? Combination? While Ness' up-b for recovering isn't that great (too highly underrated imo), it has excellent offensive potential. Not only is PK Thunder good for extra damage/juggling, it can disrupt or completely ruin other character's recoveries back to the stage. Don't say a simple airdodge will prevent this, as any smart Ness player will snake/loop the PK Thunder so that it will end up getting to you. Not only that but PK Thunder 2 is a devastating move, capable at killing at 30% if sweetspotted. PK Thunder mindgames will frustrate and kill any opponent of Ness.

Ness' bair is a very powerful attack as well. With decent range and the power of the knee, this move should definately be on the list. Not only that, but it's very easy to get a sweetspotted bair for Ness unlike Captain Falcon's knee and Zelda's thunder kicks. I think it's better than at least Wolf's bair.

Also Ness' utilt isn't even considered when thinking of utilts, but should be looked as one of the better utilts. It has alot of priority and a deceptive hitbox (not as deceptive as Snake's, but still very decent) that can even beat Link's or MK's dair when timed right, that's good in my eyes. It combos into itself at low %s, setups aerials at mid %s, and is a killer at high %s, meaning it has uses at all %s.

And how is D3's bthrow better than Ness'? I highly doubt D3's bthrow is a guaranteed killer at 80%+.

 

[Kyuubi9t]

i think pikachu has a better F-smash than Pit.

oh and somebody PLEASE explain to me why Pit's U-air is not even on the top 10. id love to hear all about it.

 

[-Mars-]

"I can't believe Ganon's dair is considered better than Ness'. The only thing Ganon's spike has on Ness' spike is the damage it does. Other than that Ness' is quicker, has around the same knockback (capable of killing at very low %s like Ganon), and has a sourspot late in the dair that sends people flying to the side which will more often than not be the daired victims doom if Ness was going for the off-stage spike"

Are you serious? Ganons dair can be auto cancelled in a SH, does 20% damage, combos, and kills at ridiculously low percents on a standing opponent when fresh. It has a lot of more uses than Ness'.

"oh and somebody PLEASE explain to me why Pit's U-air is not even on the top 10. id love to hear all about it."

It can be easily DI'ed out of.....simple as that.

 

[Dajayman]

Are you serious? Ganons dair can be auto cancelled in a SH, does 20% damage, combos, and kills at ridiculously low percents on a standing opponent when fresh. It has a lot of more uses than Ness'.

I was only thinking about it as a spike offstage, so you are right. My bad. All the other Ness things I said should be considered.

 

[brinboy789]

"I can't believe Ganon's dair is considered better than Ness'. The only thing Ganon's spike has on Ness' spike is the damage it does. Other than that Ness' is quicker, has around the same knockback (capable of killing at very low %s like Ganon), and has a sourspot late in the dair that sends people flying to the side which will more often than not be the daired victims doom if Ness was going for the off-stage spike"

Are you serious? Ganons dair can be auto cancelled in a SH, does 20% damage, combos, and kills at ridiculously low percents on a standing opponent when fresh. It has a lot of more uses than Ness'.

"oh and somebody PLEASE explain to me why Pit's U-air is not even on the top 10. id love to hear all about it."

It can be easily DI'ed out of.....simple as that.

I was only thinking about it as a spike offstage, so you are right. My bad. All the other Ness things I said should be considered.

the "sour" spot that you are talking about has diagonal knockback. ganon's dair has full body hitbox, with sort of lingering hitbox, and spikes during he entire hitbox. have you ever seen thunderstorming? ridiculous. check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PccEQMQAMVo

that is a vid of a pro ganon using thunderstorming alot. and nesses dair has some startup. ganon's dair comes out right away. ganons dayr >>> nesses dair.

 

[donferd_donster]

marth's fsmash wtf lol

IF it hits and IF it tips, it's good

i completely agree with you on that i sent a dk flying at 80 before with the tip smash. also, marios uair and nair have great priority, dont forget about marios down+b that move is just amazing! GIMPING MASTER!!!!

 

[donferd_donster]

Fox dairing into fsmash? Pointless, if you can fsmash than you can upsmash, which is extremely circumstancial. The enemy's shield has to be very deteriorated and it actually has to put them into a "tripping" frame (only happens when you dair at high %s) then you can upsmash. Otherwise whatever you do gets grabbed and then shielded. What you can do is dair into a grab (if they don't grab you before you grab them, and this method is actually is not in your favor as they have a much bigger time frame to grab you in) or dair a little bit over their head so they're not facing you and then up tilt, but even that can be blocked. Brawl fox sucks .

Brawl fox does not suk. If you do the drill kick and follow up with a dsmash...very lethal. my freind mains a fox and he's **** good heh heh. btw fox usmash is really gay when ur hit by it, very strong indeed!

 

[Crystanium]

the "sour" spot that you are talking about has diagonal knockback. ganon's dair has full body hitbox, with sort of lingering hitbox, and spikes during he entire hitbox. have you ever seen thunderstorming? ridiculous. check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PccEQMQAMVo

that is a vid of a pro ganon using thunderstorming alot. and nesses dair has some startup. ganon's dair comes out right away. ganons dayr >>> nesses dair.

I could've sworn I posted up Adapt's thread regarding spikes to show you who had a better spike. Ness has the best d-air in the entire game, since it is capable of KO'ing at 12%. Yes, Ganondorf's causes more percent damage (23%), but in regard to knock-back, Ness' is stronger than Ganondorf's. Ganondorf is second, but Ganondorf is first when it comes to knock-back growth rate (KGR).

Anyway, this is for ShadowLink84 and Judge Judy in reference to Pit's Palutena's Arrow and Falco's Blaster.

• Damage: Palutena's Arrow does 5% (11% charged), while Falco's Blaster does 3%.
• Distance: Palutena's Arrow goes further than Falco's Blaster.
• Speed: Palutena's Arrow fires much faster than Falco's Blaster.
• Delay: Palutena's Arrow delays, in that Falco can fire more projectile than Pit.
• Absorptive/Reflective: Both Palutena's Arrow and the Blaster can be absorbed or reflected.
• Trajectory: Only Palutena's Arrow can be altered manually.

I would like to see Falco use his Blaster and then perform a tilt or grab. I want to see how Falco's Blaster has more hitstun than Palutena's Arrow.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Anyway, this is for ShadowLink84 and Judge Judy in reference to Pit's Palutena's Arrow and Falco's Blaster.

[*]Distance: Palutena's Arrow goes further than Falco's Blaster.[/quote?
Explain. To my knowledge Falcos laser goes all the way from one end of the stage to the other.

[*]Speed: Palutena's Arrow fires much faster than Falco's Blaster.

Correct yourself. You mean it MOVES faster.
Saying it fires faster implies firing rate.

I would like to see Falco use his Blaster and then perform a tilt or grab. I want to see how Falco's Blaster has more hitstun than Palutena's Arrow.

Dont strawman. No one ever said that.
Falcos has LESS hitstun than ts arrow but the fact that he has much less delay when firing means he can land a tilt.
you can look it up and see it in How to SDL properly on youtube.

 

[Dajayman]

Wow, ignore all my other Ness moves I said and focus on the dair that I admit that I was wrong on.

Ness' dair is actually the better off-stage spike because it has the best initial spike knockback in the game, decent knockback growth rate, it's faster than Ganon's, and has more of a lingering hitbox than Ganon's so if your timing is abit off it will either kill off the side or give Ness another spike chance.

Ganon has a better ground application than Ness. Thunderstorming is an excellent damage dealer, plus his dair is capable of killing when fresh. All Ness' dair does on the ground is setup for other aerial attacks.

Other than that, Ganon's dair has a bigger hitbox and does more damage. Meaning overall, Ganon's spike wins. I only said that Ness' spike is better as an off-stage spike because of the reasons I listed above.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Why is Marth in the top ten of f-smashes?

 

[da K.I.D.]

Pit should be on the list for utilt, According to frame data, it comes out in 3frames, it has 3 hitboxs. The bottom hitbox shield pokes, and raises the person upward into the next two hits. All together it deals 16% damage and put people directly above you giving pit the position to Uair.

Pit's Fsmash I would say would be the best in game. Not just because it's the fastest but it's knockback is sufficent.

For Dairs, most likely Kirby should be on the list. He's a muilti-jump character with the ability to meteor. Much like Fox's dair is you space/time it right you can get a free Fsmash I'm pretty sure.

Edit: What about dthrow and uthrow?
Also For Down+B. I see some goods ones like Wolf's Reflector and GW's bucket. I think Pit's Shield deserves to be on it. Much like Mario's Cape it can reflect recoveries, Such as ones that deal damage like almost everyone's in the game. Space's Animals Up+B, Fire emblems, Earthbound kids, Metaknight, Dk and much others. It's one of the best gimping things in the game.

surprised links dair did not make this list.....
Im also surprised IC dsmash made the list. t

I can't believe Ganon's dair is considered better than Ness'. The only thing Ganon's spike has on Ness' spike is the damage it does. Other than that Ness' is quicker, has around the same knockback (capable of killing at very low %s like Ganon), and has a sourspot late in the dair that sends people flying to the side which will more often than not be the daired victims doom if Ness was going for the off-stage spike.

For up-b, what is this based on? Recovery? Offensive uses? Combination? While Ness' up-b for recovering isn't that great (too highly underrated imo), it has excellent offensive potential. Not only is PK Thunder good for extra damage/juggling, it can disrupt or completely ruin other character's recoveries back to the stage. Don't say a simple airdodge will prevent this, as any smart Ness player will snake/loop the PK Thunder so that it will end up getting to you. Not only that but PK Thunder 2 is a devastating move, capable at killing at 30% if sweetspotted. PK Thunder mindgames will frustrate and kill any opponent of Ness.

Ness' bair is a very powerful attack as well. With decent range and the power of the knee, this move should definately be on the list. Not only that, but it's very easy to get a sweetspotted bair for Ness unlike Captain Falcon's knee and Zelda's thunder kicks. I think it's better than at least Wolf's bair.

Also Ness' utilt isn't even considered when thinking of utilts, but should be looked as one of the better utilts. It has alot of priority and a deceptive hitbox (not as deceptive as Snake's, but still very decent) that can even beat Link's or MK's dair when timed right, that's good in my eyes. It combos into itself at low %s, setups aerials at mid %s, and is a killer at high %s, meaning it has uses at all %s.

And how is D3's bthrow better than Ness'? I highly doubt D3's bthrow is a guaranteed killer at 80%+.

i think pikachu has a better F-smash than Pit.

oh and somebody PLEASE explain to me why Pit's U-air is not even on the top 10. id love to hear all about it.

Wow, ignore all my other Ness moves I said and focus on the dair that I admit that I was wrong on.

Ness' dair is actually the better off-stage spike because it has the best initial spike knockback in the game, decent knockback growth rate, it's faster than Ganon's, and has more of a lingering hitbox than Ganon's so if your timing is abit off it will either kill off the side or give Ness another spike chance.

Ganon has a better ground application than Ness. Thunderstorming is an excellent damage dealer, plus his dair is capable of killing when fresh. All Ness' dair does on the ground is setup for other aerial attacks.

Other than that, Ganon's dair has a bigger hitbox and does more damage. Meaning overall, Ganon's spike wins. I only said that Ness' spike is better as an off-stage spike because of the reasons I listed above.

ive said it once and ill say it again
people need to stop pole jocking their mains

you all need to be more like this guy...

Why is Marth in the top ten of f-smashes?

but to answer your question http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqNUpqy_L9Q
6:23

 

[DanGR]

Delay: Palutena's Arrow delays, in that Falco can fire more projectile than Pit.

Falco's lasers' spammability and usefulness in a vareity of different situations is the reason why it's better.

I think I remember seeing somewhere that the "ground canceled" lasers (I don't know what they're called) have a shieldstun/after-lag profit of 3 frames. That's insane.

 

[Skink]

Why is Marth in the top ten of f-smashes?

Cause the dude who made these lists loves to get smashes wrong.

 

[brinboy789]

Wow, ignore all my other Ness moves I said and focus on the dair that I admit that I was wrong on.

Ness' dair is actually the better off-stage spike because it has the best initial spike knockback in the game, decent knockback growth rate, it's faster than Ganon's, and has more of a lingering hitbox than Ganon's so if your timing is abit off it will either kill off the side or give Ness another spike chance.

Ganon has a better ground application than Ness. Thunderstorming is an excellent damage dealer, plus his dair is capable of killing when fresh. All Ness' dair does on the ground is setup for other aerial attacks.

Other than that, Ganon's dair has a bigger hitbox and does more damage. Meaning overall, Ganon's spike wins. I only said that Ness' spike is better as an off-stage spike because of the reasons I listed above.

nesses dair wins...in like, the first 14%...and then for the rest %'s, ganon wins. and ness cant thunderstorm, can he?

 

[Dajayman]

ive said it once and ill say it again
people need to stop pole jocking their mains

Except that I admitted my mistake on Ness' dair, you can completely remove dair for consideration. And I gave good reasons why the other moves should be considered. Maybe if the other moves were discussed like the dair, then I could be proven wrong. But until then, please don't say it's just because of who I main because I actually put down reasons. But I'll re-enlighten you.

For utilt, Ness' is easily better than Fox's, Kirby's, and Mario's who are on the list. With just as much range if not more and a hell of alot more priority (can theirs beat MK's dair or Link's dair if timed right?), Ness' should easily replace theirs. Plus Ness' utilt combos into itself at lower %s, setups aerials at mid %s, and kills at high %s.

Ness' up-b is easily the most versatile projectile in the game, along with a not too bad recovery. When used smartly, PK Thunder can be the most lethal and annoying projectile in the game. PK Thunder is very fast and can disrupt or even kill some characters recovering. It can also be used to juggle characters for some extra damage. A simple airdodge doesn't work, because a smart Ness player will snake/loop the PK Thunder when controlling it. PK Thunder also has a HUGE tail with a ****load of priority, and everyone knows tailwhip > sweetspotted PK Thunder 2 is a deadly attack, capable of killing at 30%. I just hit the tip of the iceberg, there are so many other ways to use PK Thunder and PK Thunder 2.

Ness' bair is a kill move. It is basically a backwards knee, and it is still easy to hit with the sweetspot of this unlike the knee or a thunderkick. With decent range and the fact that this can be combined into double aerial short hop, it is very deadly. I see characters on the list who have almost the same range as Ness' (Luigi, Wolf, Peach), but not even close the killing potential.

 

[da K.I.D.]

1. ness's up tilt doesnt have nearly the comboabilty or range that any of the other ones that you mentioned have.

2. ness's back air doesnt have the range priority or start up time that the other ones you mentioned do. luigis isnt for killing, its for comboing, and it does that job very well and doesnt craploads of damage on top of that.
wolfs and peach are much better for gimping, have wayyyyy more disjointed range and are faster.

once again just because you know more about your character than you know about other characters doesnt mean that your character is better. i get the distinct feeling that you really dont know the actual massive range of peachs and wolf's back airs. peach has had stupid range on hers since melee.

 

[Dajayman]

nesses dair wins...in like, the first 14%...and then for the rest %'s, ganon wins. and ness cant thunderstorm, can he?

Someone can't read? I admitted overall that Ness' dair is worse that Ganon's dair. But as an offstage spike, Ness' is better. If you think at higher %s Ganon's is better for the offstage spike, that's just dumb. Ness' spike offstage is almost a guaranteed kill (hard to recovery from only at very low %s, other than that they are doomed). Plus with better speed and a sourspot that either gives you ANOTHER chance of spiking or finishes the opponent.

 

[Gindler]

Except that I admitted my mistake on Ness' dair, you can completely remove dair for consideration. And I gave good reasons why the other moves should be considered. Maybe if the other moves were discussed like the dair, then I could be proven wrong. But until then, please don't say it's just because of who I main because I actually put down reasons. But I'll re-enlighten you.

For utilt, Ness' is easily better than Fox's, Kirby's, and Mario's who are on the list. With just as much range if not more and a hell of alot more priority (can theirs beat MK's dair or Link's dair if timed right?), Ness' should easily replace theirs. Plus Ness' utilt combos into itself at lower %s, setups aerials at mid %s, and kills at high %s.

Ness' up-b is easily the most versatile projectile in the game, along with a not too bad recovery. When used smartly, PK Thunder can be the most lethal and annoying projectile in the game. PK Thunder is very fast and can disrupt or even kill some characters recovering. It can also be used to juggle characters for some extra damage. A simple airdodge doesn't work, because a smart Ness player will snake/loop the PK Thunder when controlling it. PK Thunder also has a HUGE tail with a ****load of priority, and everyone knows tailwhip > sweetspotted PK Thunder 2 is a deadly attack, capable of killing at 30%. I just hit the tip of the iceberg, there are so many other ways to use PK Thunder and PK Thunder 2.

Ness' bair is a kill move. It is basically a backwards knee, and it is still easy to hit with the sweetspot of this unlike the knee or a thunderkick. With decent range and the fact that this can be combined into double aerial short hop, it is very deadly. I see characters on the list who have almost the same range as Ness' (Luigi, Wolf, Peach), but not even close the killing potential.

Keep in mind I second Ness.

Utilt: Higher priority...yes. combo into itself as easily? yes. Faster? nope. Easier to get them into it (fox's dair combo's into his, kirby's throws, mario's Bair and Nair), nope so over all theirs are infact better.

Bair: easier to sweetspot than the knee or thunderkick...pretty much all it has on them, knee kills like 20% earlier on average deals more damage and is no where near as close as being a crowd pleaser goes. Peaches wolf and luigi's all seem to have INSANE priority, same range, and they all kill well they're just usally diminished because they are WAY more spammable as a "WoP"

PKT is good. but you can easily agree that the shuttle loop pwns it

Someone can't read? I admitted overall that Ness' dair is worse that Ganon's dair. But as an offstage spike, Ness' is better. If you think at higher %s Ganon's is better for the offstage spike, that's just dumb. Ness' spike offstage is almost a guaranteed kill (hard to recovery from only at very low %s, other than that they are doomed). Plus with better speed and a sourspot that either gives you ANOTHER chance of spiking or finishes the opponent.

I love the spike, but it's equal with ganon's at what? like 15-20%? the liklihood anyone will be below that and offstage is awfully unlikely. I think ganon's is faster, and his entire body is the hitbox making it an enormous spiking hitbox of doom. As far as spikes/meteors go though, samus's is my favorite. Ness and ganon have to go back after one attempt, samus I can try it 4 times and still make it back to the stage.

 

[da K.I.D.]

hmmm.
sourspot that knocks them up and gives them another chance to recover.
sourspot that spikes anyway, just not quite as hard though its still the 4th/5th strongest spike in the game...

i know which one i would choose

 

[Awex]

dtilt:
#1 Olimar
#2-10 doesn't even matter

 

[XxBlackxX]

dtilt:
#1 Olimar
#2-10 doesn't even matter

ok first of all, this seems extremely biased >_> and you didn't give ANY reasoning behind your suggestion. besides, MK's dtilt is way better.

 

[viparagon]

okay! im back to change the list!

I'll move marth's fsmash down some, plus some of the other suggestions

 

[da K.I.D.]

i tried not to say anything but it bothers me everytime that i see it.

you need to move lucarios f-smash up to 2 or 3
i promise you its better than kirby's

 

[viparagon]

i tried not to say anything but it bothers me everytime that i see it.

you need to move lucarios f-smash up to 2 or 3
i promise you its not better than kirby's

soo... ur sayin its better than wario's?

 

[da K.I.D.]

sorry i fixed it, personally i think its better than both

 

[viparagon]

yeah, I can see it as best in the game, but warios stays for now! its just so hard to punish if spaced correctly... you can't even spot dodge it most of the time
a while ago, smash wiki had it nominated for worst in the game (with marth's first)...
lol