viparagon
Smash Ace
I did? What are you talking about? Early on?
How exactly is ROBS Dsmash better than MK's besides the fact that its ONE frame faster and does 3 more damage? MK's cannot be DI'd out of, has more range, and kills WAY earlier...
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Metaknight iz zo brokn!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Thread starter viparagon
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How exactly is ROBS Dsmash better than MK's besides the fact that its ONE frame faster and does 3 more damage? MK's cannot be DI'd out of, has more range, and kills WAY earlier...
viparagon
Smash Ace
sorry, it was a referrence to all of you, sorry for bothering to take your quote >.>
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Um, what the **** where did you get this from?
I never said Sonic's fsmash is good.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
the fact that you can autocancel the landing lag of the attack is a minimal concern on a character who has no problem with landing lag. because you can cancel the landing lag, it's a more valid mixup than it otherwise might be, but it's still one of MK's WORST options for approach and is still very vulnerable while in the falling animation of that vid you linked.
faking somebody out and having then outspeeding them with MK's Dsamsh does NOT make the move they failed to read correctly a good move.
if anything, the "application" portion of the video is a testimant to MK's Dsmash being so good since the Dpwn+B didn't actually DO anything to link.
Pit players use this in the same way Mario's use the cape on recoveries, certainly not a bad down-b.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
it has less frames to turn around than cape does, but yeah I thought about this and then thought: so what if it's marginalized a little bit by side+B, there are worse Down+Bs out there.... like lucario's and DDD's
viparagon
Smash Ace
you said sonics was better than pit's and pits was top 5...
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
you misunderstood, I said the reasoning you gave for pit was not good and used an xample of another character who has less speed but much more range to their attacks
viparagon
Smash Ace
how come ness isnt even mentioned for up b and down a? Down A is the strongest metoer in the game at zero percent(can spike through water and kill at zero percent) and his up is one of Ness` main moves that racks up a lot of damage and leads into one of his best killing moves, pkt2. If your saying up bs by recovery, then leave Ness out. But you should have Up Bs by attacking, too.
Change Down A, have Ness up there SOMEWHERE, please.
Change Down A, have Ness up there SOMEWHERE, please.
Stutter stepped F-Smash should have more range.sonic has LESS range BTW (tested it)
but w/e I made room anyway...
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
my test indicated Sonic beat him out. What did you use? I used a custom stage.sonic has LESS range BTW (tested it
but w/e I made room anyway...
I accounted for the disjoint around the fist.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
why is pit's Fsamsh ranked so high?
it's power is pretty low for an Fsamsh, and you can DI out of the range of the second hit.
evertone else on that Fsamsh list has a better Fsmash than pit IMO. And I wouldn't say pit's is better than sonic's either.
sonic can shift forward while smashing (stutter step) which gives it awesome range, can't be DId out of and has respectable killing power.
it's power is pretty low for an Fsamsh, and you can DI out of the range of the second hit.
evertone else on that Fsamsh list has a better Fsmash than pit IMO. And I wouldn't say pit's is better than sonic's either.
sonic can shift forward while smashing (stutter step) which gives it awesome range, can't be DId out of and has respectable killing power.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
you don't get extra range perse like you would with Sonc's dash grab.
You're just able to shift your placement so it give sthe idea of more range. hence why I ignored it.
You're just able to shift your placement so it give sthe idea of more range. hence why I ignored it.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
it gives you range in the same way Wolf's Fsmash does. if wolf's Fsamsh didn't shift him forward and give it great range, it would be pretty bad. The fact is, it DOES give it range... not reach, but range.
it still has no more extension from the body that it did before, but the body moves closer to your oponents. Howver you wanna phrase it, your oponents have a smaller range of safety than they would otherwise.
viparagon
Smash Ace
No MOAR pit fsmash talk. Even Kitamerby thinks its probably the best now..., for reasons I've stated AGAIN AND AGAIN
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
the fact that it's not threatening?
it's fast.... other than that. it's bad. it doesn't have strength, it has meh range for an Fsmash, it can be DId out of before the second hit, but at the same time doesn't linger long enough to punish spotdodges.
it's not near as good as it's placed. It's certainly not top 5, probably not even top 10.
all other 9 on that list are just flat out better.
viparagon
Smash Ace
srsly ive been discussing it for the past 60 pages. half of my post concern fsmash -____-
just read pages 53-55
How is Falco's bair not on the list?
Snake's usmash has so many uses, I'd put it above Fox's.
Pika's dsmash is garbage, ROB's should be higher, and Snake's should be given top ten consideration because of how effectively it takes away parts of the stage for pressuring purposes.
Snake's usmash has so many uses, I'd put it above Fox's.
Pika's dsmash is garbage, ROB's should be higher, and Snake's should be given top ten consideration because of how effectively it takes away parts of the stage for pressuring purposes.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Snake's C4 does that more. his landmine is easily detonated most of the time. standard Dsamshes held by many characters are just better.
Up smashes seem a bit wonky to me too. Game and watches is strong, but it's not strong enough to make up for the fact that it has bad range and is slow. it's hard to hit with and easy to see coming. It's like Lucas's or Ivysaurs, you have to trick them or predict them to hit with it... except it doesn't have the range, priority or strength of either of them.
Squrtle's Usmash is hard enough to hit with comparitively that I'd say: while good, is not as good as some of those below him, such as peach and ike.
Link... I love him, he's got a fun boost smash with it, but it's very punishable, not too strong, it's slow and easy to DI out of the last hit. there are much scarier and all around more useful usmashes to put on that list.
Sheik's Upsmash is unpunishable if sheilded due to great sheildpush. it's also impossibly strong and very fast. it's ONLY downside is that it has a small sweetspot, but boost smashing and Ftilt comboes mean that sheik WILL hit with it often enough for it to be a great kill move. it also does a lot of damage. it's great.
I'm also under the impression falco's Usmash, thanks to dacus, is a staple of his repetoir and is more often used than other Usmashes on that list. I'd strongly consider putting that one up as well.
Up smashes seem a bit wonky to me too. Game and watches is strong, but it's not strong enough to make up for the fact that it has bad range and is slow. it's hard to hit with and easy to see coming. It's like Lucas's or Ivysaurs, you have to trick them or predict them to hit with it... except it doesn't have the range, priority or strength of either of them.
Squrtle's Usmash is hard enough to hit with comparitively that I'd say: while good, is not as good as some of those below him, such as peach and ike.
Link... I love him, he's got a fun boost smash with it, but it's very punishable, not too strong, it's slow and easy to DI out of the last hit. there are much scarier and all around more useful usmashes to put on that list.
Sheik's Upsmash is unpunishable if sheilded due to great sheildpush. it's also impossibly strong and very fast. it's ONLY downside is that it has a small sweetspot, but boost smashing and Ftilt comboes mean that sheik WILL hit with it often enough for it to be a great kill move. it also does a lot of damage. it's great.
I'm also under the impression falco's Usmash, thanks to dacus, is a staple of his repetoir and is more often used than other Usmashes on that list. I'd strongly consider putting that one up as well.
viparagon
Smash Ace
Pika's Dsmash still comeout very fast, can't be spotdodged has TONS of range, and eats through sheilds like paper.
Falco's bair was on the list, but it got bumped off to make room for others
snake's sux. it was worst on the list at one point.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
What we are saying is that U-smash alone is not the best for Snake, but thats why there is a different section for boost smashes, because his rules boosted.Pika's Dsmash still comeout very fast, can't be spotdodged has TONS of range, and eats through sheilds like paper.
Falco's bair was on the list, but it got bumped off to make room for others
snake's sux. it was worst on the list at one point.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
wow.... now I'm sure pit's Fsmash doesn't deserve to be anywhere near that high. it's like you being assaulted with facts and you saying "nu-uh" over and over again.
viparagon
Smash Ace
srry, just looked back on it and he made some SERIOUS edits... the fact remains that its the 2nd or hardest to punish in the game. Has GOOD range, and is also the fastest. PLUS DOES 19 damage...
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Geez I mained Mario too last week. So I know ALL about him. PKT is not crap, your maining of Ness was either
A)short lived
B)terrible player
Your comments are bad.
Regardless arguments will posted soon. And better grammar please ^_^
You're not gonna DI out of a move that comes out in 7 frames without some serious prediction. If that was the case, nobody would ever complain about MK's Fair EVER.
The hitbox is out for 15 frames. Lucario's Fsmash is out for 8 frames if I recall correctly.
The only reason Lucario's Fsmash is better for punishing spotdodges is because it's just so **** slow.
(although the IASA frames help)
GnW's Usmash is stronger than Lucas's, and can be performed out of a tech chase. It has good enough range for its purposes, as well as immense priority, lingering hitbox, and IASA frames. It's godly as an usmash.
Ever hear of Hydroplaning?
Agreed.
Boost smash is unreliable, and nobody not named Fox can be reliably put into sweetspot usmash range unless they have the worst DI in the world. :\
Falco's Usmash is very weak, imo. It's just not as good as most other character's usmashes.
viparagon
Smash Ace
comments...Geez I mained Mario too last week. So I know ALL about him.
you didn't know about SH double uair, the basis of his combo game, nor SH double bair aparently...
PKT is not crap, your maining of Ness was either
A)short lived
B)terrible player
Umm.... NO? This is how you reply to all my valid points? learn 2 argue plz...
Your comments are bad.
How so?
Regardless arguments will posted soon. And better grammar please ^_^
Ima tryn, but they keepz getn worse?
brinboy789
Smash Champion
lol...im pretty sure some chars can shieldgrab through second hit on pit fsmash...
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Terrible NESS player. Your a great Mario player ^-^
viparagon
Smash Ace
oli, link and samus only
viparagon
Smash Ace
I'm pretty good with ness, but seriously, PKT is REALLY overrated...almost any aerial can just cancel it out. If you airdodge the PK thunder can get to you, but almost everyone has something to cancel it out. As an attack, I think lucas' is better as an attack and especially in recovery, and ness's ub is one of THE EASIEST TO GIMP IN THE GAME >_>
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
the second hit doesn't come out for, what, 10 frames after the first? that's some serious time to DI
I only said it wasn't good for punishing spotdodges. I didn't compare it to lucario's in that or any aspect. there's very little it IS good at besides being fast.
hm... stonger huh. okay maybe it is I didn't think it was. it ain't stronger than ivy's though. but I digress. it's still dang slow. it still has bad range. it has good priority but it's not hard to clank with if you are grounded. it's not a godly usmash, it's not an awful Usmash but all it's got going for it is strength. probably one of game and watches least threatening facets.
yes. and it makes the move more useable. And I was considering hydroplaning when I made that comment.
other fast fallers can also be put in Fsamsh range with Ftilt semi consistently and other characters can be put into fsmash range with an ftilt (not tilt lock) set up. it requires premeditation, but it connects. And boost smashing isn't one of the easier techniqes, but it's reliable enough to be considered a very real threat. it allows sheik to punish with a BEASTLY move from and OBSCENE distance.
You can't DI mid-attacks. You can only SDI during hitLAG, not hitSTUN.
It's an incredibly amazing defensive option. It comes out 2 frames slower than his jab, is faster than most character's tilts, respectable KO power, Safe on block, etc.
Snakes hate their Uair. Sheik would kill for a move with that kind of power. Just because a character likes X move and dislikes Y move doesn't mean that the move itself isn't that great.
Only if they suck at DI can they get hit with a tipper Usmash out of Ftilt. Fsmash out of Ftilt has nothing to do with Usmash.
Shiek's boost smash in particular is notorious for being incredibly difficult, possibly the most difficult (useful) Brawl tech due to its incredibly picky timing. That, combined with the fact that it usually has to be partially charged combined with not that much horizontal priority means it's pretty easy to counter from mid-range and that hitting Sheik out of her smash charge can probably be fatal due to the 20% boost in knockback on Sheik's light frame.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
regardless, it's not hard to DI out of range of the second hit. or at least isn't TOO hard.
if it's being used as a defensive option, pretty soon "respectable kill power" becomes poop. It has uses, but the other smashes on the list are better, especially considering Pit could really USE range and power as opposed to speed.
no... that's a bad example. Snake has awful control of the air. if sheik had snake's Uair, she'd **** with it because she can zip through the skies and position herself midair... something snake can't do. Game and watch cannot position that usmash to be reliable against people. not very often at all. it has too poor of range to use against grounded oponents, especially when Dsamsh and Fsmash kill so well and have much more speed/power. And against aerial opponents, he cannot position for it with its poor range and speed. as well as there being no good reason for his foe to BE there. he's gotta use it to outprioritize and punish a foe that makes a bad decision, but he can't use it otherwise. at least not well enough to consider the move anywhere near as good as it's being placed.
Typo. it was supposed to say Usmash... I thought that would be obvious though.
even if sheik's boost smash is difficult enough to work only 50% of the time, because of how good it is, that's enough. it's easily bested horizontally (so is game and watches) but it's not meant to TRY to compete with grounded foes. because of how fast it is, sheik can release the boost smash at any point along the slide distance to punish ANY airborne foe and be essentially unpunishable when doing so.
it's too fast to counter unless you expected it. it's strong enough to KO at fairly low damages.
it's hard, if possible, to punish if it's attemped while you are airborne.
it can poke through some platforms.
at low damages, it hits twice for heavy damage.
Dacus gives it exceptional range.
Can be comboed into reliably against a few characters, semi reliably against a few more, and occasionally against everyone.
it's not the best, but I'd make it top 10.
viparagon
Smash Ace
lol I've been meaning to add it for a while, and the first time you mentioned it I changed the list. Look before you post next time! I'm fairly good at updating it...
on the topic of pits fsmash./..
..If you mess up on the DI (like you don't judge how much is needed or its too close to pit to do anything)it kills WAY earlier...
just sayin'....homicidalrapist
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
- Messages
- 105
IC's Up air definitely deserves top 10, i feel it's better than sonic's at least.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Actually it doesn't work simialr to the Fsmash. Its basically teleporting to another location and performing the Fsmash.
Wolf's Fsmash has an active attack box throughout the attack.
So something that has less range and is 1/2 the speed of Sonic's is better?
Other than being disjointed thats really all the IC's have.
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