Metaknights' Even matchups? Open discussion

[Steam]

Aura makes lucario safer on shield by a handful of frames.

though lucario will usually get upsmashed because he's chasing fox down and he commits to... anything.

 

[OverLade]

That's not true. Lucario can make Fair crossups pretty safe due to shieldstun. MOST of Lucarios shenanigans he can get away with pretty soundly. Fox has to space super close to his attacks and time his punishes amazingly to even punish moves like Ftilt. I don't Usmash has a legit frame punish on Fsmash even if you outspace it down to the pixel as you run in for the Usmash.

 

[Steam]

think of it like MK's Dash attack :/

but somewhere TKD's written up a bunch about how fox can kinda just pick lucario apart. too lazy to find it.

TKD used to think fox beat lucario 70:30 lol

 

[OverLade]

That's probably just TKD beating whoever he's playing 70:30, not Fox vs Lucario...

 

[Steam]

That's probably just TKD beating whoever he's playing 70:30, not Fox vs Lucario...

it's def not 70:30

but 60:40 fox is probably what it is.

 

[B.A.M.]

dude TKD is probably play Stauffy and Stauffy is pretty legit soooo I could see it actually being match up issues.

 

[OverLade]

Stauffy is legit... But he's not even the best Lucario ever in NA. TKD is obviously outplaying him to a decent degree.

 

[B.A.M.]

Very true, but hes probably the best at the match up given they play often. Yah feel me?

Also Falco v. MK is pretty close. Falco's solid frame traps, lasers, JAB, FTILT, and grab make even MK have to respect his game. Its really the stage selection along with RCO lag that makes it difficult for Falco.

I also am a firm believer that snake does way better than people believe. Its just a question of 'perfect play.' just like for MK, Snake has some scenarios that mean a ridiculous amount of damage or death. i think its honestly an issue with the talent for the said character. I definitely feel its the same for Falco. I mean seriously, until recently it was just Larry. All the other falcos were so inferior. We got Shugo, Choice,Kasper, and Rain. Thats it. Theres a huge skill gap between Falcos, so i believe people dont realize how good Falco is. Larry made me see the light.





@Gnes: do you really think its that bad for Diddy? Just curious.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'm still trying to figure out how Falco or Pikachu go even with MK. I can see Diddy... but just not the other two.

I honestly think that if more Pikas got their **** together, we'd have more pikas ****** MK. Dthrow->uair->footstool->QAL. Guaranteed kill around 40%. You know how you get MK to 40%? Chaingrab.

Hard, sure, but definitely not impossible, and not quite as held back by platforms as, say, the Savior Combo. Seriously, why aren't we seeing more of this? There are like, no pikachu mains.

 

[DMG]

Because that combo isn't guaranteed. You can SDI the Uair, DI the footstool, and SDI quick attack/the jabs.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Because that combo isn't guaranteed. You can SDI the Uair, DI the footstool, and SDI quick attack/the jabs.

...Oh. Well color me stupid, then. -.-"

 

[Exdeath]

Aura makes lucario safer on shield by a handful of frames.

A handful of frames can make all the difference in the world. Look at Falco's laser and ZSS' Dsmash.

That's probably just TKD beating whoever he's playing 70:30, not Fox vs Lucario...

I'm pretty sure that TKD thinks that the MU is bad because Fox' Utilt can cover Lucario's cross-ups and beats Lucario's entire aerial move set. It also helps that Fox is one of the best characters at killing Lucario at a decent percent and has multiple mix-ups that lead to Usmash.

I've actually felt that the MU is in Fox' favor ever since I managed to take HRNut's Lucario to last hit and seeing him play vs. Jazz gives me the same impression that HRNut is barely winning because he is significantly out-playing him. Lucario has to commit to so much that it's really easy for Fox to get in and out easily while being safe and getting free conditions. Fox can also safely cross-up on Lucario and I feel that Fox pressures Lucario in shield more than Lucario pressures Fox.

Because that combo isn't guaranteed. You can SDI the Uair, DI the footstool, and SDI quick attack/the jabs.

It may not be guaranteed, but neither is MK's Uair chain>stuff and IMO MK's Uair is actually a lot easier to SDI out of because it has such a smaller window. Also, SDI doesn't stop the combo once the lock is started, it just expedites the inevitable conclusion and makes it more likely that the Pikachu will mess up the spacing.

 

[etecoon]

is MK banned yet or did everyone realize this game is beyond redemption anyway

 

[OverLade]

Because that combo isn't guaranteed. You can SDI the Uair, DI the footstool, and SDI quick attack/the jabs.

With the logic of Pikachu beating MK because of QAC lock, Pikachu is the best character in the game and beats every character...after ICs who beat every character because they have infinites...

I honestly think that if more Pikas got their **** together, we'd have more pikas ****** MK. Dthrow->uair->footstool->QAL. Guaranteed kill around 40%. You know how you get MK to 40%? Chaingrab.

Hard, sure, but definitely not impossible, and not quite as held back by platforms as, say, the Savior Combo. Seriously, why aren't we seeing more of this? There are like, no pikachu mains.

QAC locking people isn't super practical in the middle of matches. Diddys Naner lock is more practical to set up and even then we don't see Diddy players ****** everything with that (even though it would technically make him the best character).

A handful of frames can make all the difference in the world. Look at Falco's laser and ZSS' Dsmash.



I'm pretty sure that TKD thinks that the MU is bad because Fox' Utilt can cover Lucario's cross-ups and beats Lucario's entire aerial move set. It also helps that Fox is one of the best characters at killing Lucario at a decent percent and has multiple mix-ups that lead to Usmash.

I've actually felt that the MU is in Fox' favor ever since I managed to take HRNut's Lucario to last hit and seeing him play vs. Jazz gives me the same impression that HRNut is barely winning because he is significantly out-playing him. Lucario has to commit to so much that it's really easy for Fox to get in and out easily while being safe and getting free conditions. Fox can also safely cross-up on Lucario and I feel that Fox pressures Lucario in shield more than Lucario pressures Fox.



It may not be guaranteed, but neither is MK's Uair chain>stuff and IMO MK's Uair is actually a lot easier to SDI out of because it has such a smaller window. Also, SDI doesn't stop the combo once the lock is started, it just expedites the inevitable conclusion and makes it more likely that the Pikachu will mess up the spacing.

And Nick is probably gonna namesearch this, but his Lucario isn't representative of anything. Hrnuts pocket characters arent representative of any metagame because he doesn't commit to the game like those of us with mains, and he sandbags a lot to boot. But w/e it's just my opinion on the matchup lol.

Anyone have any TKD vs Stauffy vids?

 

[DMG]

Well actually it would make him the same. A lot of characters can infinite Diddy back with nanners. Wario definitely can, and it's fun.

 

[OverLade]

O good read.

BUT DIDDY STARTS WITH THE BANANA SO HE'S GOD TIER. WHERE IS YOUR LOGIC NOW...

 

[DMG]

I must say, a formidable counter proposal

BUT I CAN EAT THOSE BANANAS

Infinite bananas, infinite infinites

 

[Steam]

yeah I don't think there are really any lucarios in florida that could represent anything matchupwise... lol

 

[LanceStern]

Because that combo isn't guaranteed. You can SDI the Uair, DI the footstool, and SDI quick attack/the jabs.

You mean when ESAM did it maybe twice or more to MKs in tourney?

As tough as the combo is, people make the SDI seem easy as pie

 

[san.]

You can't SDI if you hit someone before they can react, since SDI requires a pretty exaggerated input. That's what makes many attacks much more dangerous than they would be if you were prepared for it, like some jab followups with many characters, or quick aerials.

 

[DMG]

On the other hand, if you're against a Pikachu and he Dthrows you, you have more than enough anticipation for the Uair to SDI it. You can throw out "empty" SDI inputs that cover you in case you get hit, while buffering an action like Dair or airdodge. If your action goes through, scenario avoided. If your action is interrupted and you are Uaired, you have SDI inputs to back you up.

If you aren't sure whether he will continue to CG you or not, it doesn't matter. If he CG's you can't escape the CG. Throwing SDI inputs there for free gives you back up in case he goes for the Uair.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

^I try and do this whenever I can, it's the best way to avoid follow-ups.

 

[Judo777]

Footstool combos are for the most part stupid. Just sayin

bar hobbling because that crap is always the same.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Someone was silly enough to say my name.

Lucario is bad and Fox wrecks him extra bad. Now stop talking about this.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'd like to say that the current MU chart has MK vs. DK as a -2 for DK.

Bull****.

 

[Steam]

I'd like to say that the current MU chart has MK vs. DK as a -2 for DK.

Bull****.

I've brought this up like 2347 times. also note Mario has a -2 with MK....

a loot of those -2s are questionable. same with a lot of the -1s

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Yeah, MK-DK is a lot closer to DDD-DK than to even, lemme tell ya... In fact, some people would even debate that MK is better against DK than DDD.

 

[-LzR-]

I almost fell bad when I sometimes nado DK like 10 times in a row on FD. Oh what a potential character he would be without such bull**** lmao.

 

[Judo777]

I almost fell bad when I sometimes nado DK like 10 times in a row on FD. Oh what a potential character he would be without such bull**** lmao.

Thats true for a lot of characters. But they get ***** by MK so they aren't good.

 

[Host Change]

Yeah, MK-DK is a lot closer to DDD-DK than to even, lemme tell ya... In fact, some people would even debate that MK is better against DK than DDD.

I would agree. I cannot think of a way to defend DK as a -2 on him. Its much worse than that. DK is one of my backup characters, and I know from experience...

 

[Luigi player]

In fact, some people would even debate that MK is better against DK than DDD.

I hope this is without the infinite, then I could see MK being better vs DK than Dedede...

 

[bassem6]

What are your opinions on wario vs mk? I think wario, like op said about olimar, is 45-55 when it comes to the mk mu.

 

[DMG]

At least 6:4 MK's favor. It's in some range between 6:4 and 7:3, depending on how likely you think it is the MK will **** up.

 

[Judo777]

I see fox is the new MK counter. That's neat. He'll soon take his spot next to Yoshi, DK, Wario, Snake, IC, Olimar, Falco and Diddy. Too bad if you actually ask the mains of the other char they will tell you its bad.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox vs MK is absolutely not bad.

 

[Conviction]

I see fox is the new MK counter. That's neat. He'll soon take his spot next to Yoshi, DK, Wario, Snake, IC, Olimar, Falco and Diddy. Too bad if you actually ask the mains of the other char they will tell you its bad.

Only problem with is, people have been thinking Fox is good vs. MK for a while now and there is mad evidence supporting it. I think it's even though.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Closest to even match-ups in order (IMO):
Meta Knight
Diddy Kong
Snake
Falco
Marth
Fox
Wolf
Pikachu
Olimar
Mr. Game & Watch
Jigglypuff (yes, I went there )
Zero Suit Samus (...maybe...?)

 

[OverLade]

Fox vs MK is not even. Its possibly better than Falco/about on par with Snake though.

 

[Judo777]

Fox vs MK is not even. Its possibly better than Falco/about on par with Snake though.

Well Snake MK isn't close to even either 6/4 at least.

And no fox wasn't included in my statement about asking the mains. There is the same kind of evidence that there is about Snake going even with MK. Snakes have been upsetting MK's for a while. Doesn't change the fact that the MU isn't even.

 

[OverLade]

Snake isn't as bad as 6/4. It's clear it's not even but 55/45 is a more accurate ration if we're using that scale.