Metaknights's Matchup Discussion

[victinivcreate1]

I'm serious. What's a good approach in the mewtwo matchup?

Somebody be useful...

I got you bruh.

Ok lets face it, pretty much every top Mewtwo player does not have particularly great fundamentals. There is a reason why Emukiller is a step above Frozen (hence why he 2-0'd him at Zenith, no disrespect to Frozen intended, he is a good player who would probably beat me). He has the best fundamentals of all the Mewtwo mains. IDK much about Anti's Mewtwo and I haven't seen it either, so he might or might not also be a top Mewtwo as well. Anyway, TP Hover Aerial is their only approach they know. It requires minimal tech skill and it has massive reward. So take that away from him and their last resort neutral game is spam up tilt or ftilt, run in grab, or camp with baby Shadow Balls.

MK has tools to stop the TP Hover nair. Retreating SHFFL nair. The hitbox on nair is actually pretty big, and its non committal enough that if the Mewtwo TP'd somewhere else you have SHFFL'd your aerial and you can run off to someplace else. Do this a bunch and eventually they will stop TP Hover aerial to approach. When you have achieved this, you have literally won 75% of the fight. If they continue doing TP Hover Nairs, either they're trying to condition you to get used to a certain TP (like if they're always floating into your face, or if they end up behind you and float into your back), or they're really dumb (most Mewtwos except for Frozen/Anti/Emukiller/M2K/Kaos).

TP Float Bair is also pretty strong. Learn the spacing for this so that way they can never space back air and end up getting you with tippers that you can't counter.

ASL kills Mewtwo at 85.

It is very possible to combo Mewtwo. Watch LTC2 K9 vs Kaos. Game 4 K9 did this sick combo that took Kaos from 0-65% and it was like down throw nair up tilt, uair uair bair (end of the combo) and then K9 got the turnaround Deflect DC (the backwards DC) because he had positional advantage. Do things like this. Mewtwo's fair is fast, but he is fat and the fair is not THAT fast, considering other floaties have frame 3 combo breakers.

 

[Bloodcross]

Ok thanks for the advice. My problem before was that I was looking for the tilt game FIRST and not so much teleports. I have too much experience with dealing with long range tilt wars so I was hoping for that kind of fight, but it ended up just being more teleports into the combo game.

I gave mewtwo too much respect, so thanks again.

Also I wanna comment on the MK CC flowchart and say YO I KNEW GSL WAS GOOD SPECIFICALLY FOR CC ABUSERS but I was only thinking theoretically at the time but damn it really does work. Good work

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

[Infinity gives some insight about the matchup in this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I_00sncuUg). It's a pretty good set too, there's a lot to learn.

I'm no MK master and haven't played a ton of Mewtwos either so I don't think I'm best fit to give specific insight into the matchup unfortunately :/

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

[Infinity talks about the matchup in this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I_00sncuUg). It's a pretty good set too. There's a lot to learn.

 

[Vidiot825]

You generally want to DI Ivysaur's Down Throw down and away but do note that Up Throw is a DI trap for Dthrow (the optimal DI for one throw is very bad for the other) so if they're catching on to your DI habit then they'll attempt Uthrows into juggles or UpB. For Uthrow you generally want to DI behind Ivy and slightly upward. But at high percents Uthrow/Dthrow to UpB is guaranteed against MK.

Bigger stages have worked well for me vs Marth generally, yeah. Your KO power will be weakened, sure, but... you're also MetaKnight, a gimp god. So go for gimps and edgeguards!

Can't comment much on the G&W matchup since I hardly have any experience against him, unfortunately.

In other news, a previously unknown local Link player (13 years old, mind you!) by the name of Aklo spanked a bunch of established players in the NY/NJ region at Crossfire 4, including me, Frozen, JohnNumbers and Emukiller (in winners). He beat us all very solidly before being sent to losers by M2K (in a close set). The matches sadly weren't recorded but he pulled some big upsets for sure. His zoning and patience with boomerang, bombs, zair and even arrow were too good. Even when playing Aklo in friendlies as MK I felt helpless to find a plausible workaround around it (shielding could only do so much in closing distance vs Link's keepaway, especially Boomerang). I'm nearly lost on how to go about this matchup as MK and I haven't seen any good footage of MK vs Link on the interwebs... might just have to find a legit secondary to CP the character.

Projectiles make me a sad bat.

Hey there, hope you remember me as well and not just aklo
One of us 4 is a meta night main as well
In terms of the match up, metaknight has to bait grabs more to be honest, but as you probably know metaknight grabs can be taken VERY far
Also, he is one the most efficient characters at following link off stage
Hope that sheds some light, I don't believe it's actually a horrible match up for mk at all, just people aren't used to efficient links as of yet, lol

 

[bubbaking]

Don't worry, buddy, I definitely remembered you.

I've played against Aklo's brother, Vidiot, at a previous Crossfire/Warzone before. I managed to edge out a victory there, but he was also a solid Link.

About MK vs M2, I play with a pretty decent Mewtwo every day (the person who actually taught Emu how to telefloat the way he does). One thing I don't like about using retreating aerials is that it doesn't stop shadow balls, which Mewtwo can approach behind for free. I prefer to hang in the air (as usual) and then FF nair down to counter teleports. Shuttle loops, including OoS, can also stuff them. Pressuring Mew2 is kinda free 'cause he's lacking in the OoS department, and you can easily react to his roll and punish with anything. I believe MK has one of the better MUs against Mewtwo out of the whole cast.

 

[Espi]

Why isn't this thread stickied yet?

 

[Espi]

I think MK v Mewtwo is a 55/45 MU for MK.
Few things M2 has on MK

• U-Throw kills
• Low % Fair kills
• Good approaches (Shadow balls, T-Nair, WD F-Tilt

Things MK has on M2

• Deadly throw followups
• Early ASL kills
• SHFFL Nair followups (Nair to D-Tilt to Uair to Uair to ASL

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I would also argue neutral game is fairly even between those 2 and MK has the easier time increasing Mewtwo's damage while sustaining positional advantage that may lead into followups (as a type of techchase not that pressure-intensive but even harder to free from)

 

[victinivcreate1]

MK vs Peach and MK vs Ness?

Hate these two MUs. Don't know exactly what to do in them.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

MK vs Peach and MK vs Ness?

Hate these two MUs. Don't know exactly what to do in them.

For Peach maybe you could platform camp her she is more of a ground based character I have not played the match up but it works some what we'll for the Samus,and the Peach Matchup maybe

 

[Lawn Chair]

MK vs Peach and MK vs Ness?

Hate these two MUs. Don't know exactly what to do in them.

I'll tell ya soon making an overall guide for Metaknight and I'll upload a guideline on how to play against everyone with MK every week based on forum votes

 

[victinivcreate1]

Yo @ Lawn Chair
I give you full permission to use my guide for stuff. You probably have wayyy more to add since you're the tournament threat.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I'd also be avilable for any kind of research, information or personal views. I also expect some controversy xD

 

[Boiko]

MK vs Peach and MK vs Ness?

Hate these two MUs. Don't know exactly what to do in them.

To beat Ness you just need to play a super patient game of baits and camping. I recently played a tournament set against Bubbaking, him playing MK, and it went to 7:15 because of how patient he was. It was working for a while, but eventually I adapted and started baiting his approaches and punishing, eventually winning, but that's seriously the best thing to do.

Keep yourself in the air above and away from Ness, take advantage of his slow double jump. Use your bair to keep him away and shut out his approaches. I highly advise against approaching. Ness has a CG on MK for a bit, but it combos into a lot more. Bubba got comboed to 120 percent when he decided to approach. There really isn't much Ness can do if you camp the top platform besides throw his more laggy projectiles at you, which MK is fast enough to punish. Just make sure they're not using it as a bait, like I did. Once you get Ness in the air, don't let him come down. Everyone knows to DI MK's uairs so he doesn't shuttle loop you off the top, but this typically means going off stage, a place where Ness does not want to be against MK. If Ness isn't sweet spotting, you can smack him out of PKT2 with a bair.

Really it's just a spacing game and playing off the fact that Ness doesn't have too many options when MK is above him. When you land a good hit, try to take it for a little while, because we all know MK has good combos, but don't do anything unsafe, or extend a risky combo, because a good Ness player will make you feel the hurt.

Stages to ban: GHZ, FD. Chain grabs and no platforms = sad Meta.
Stages I ban: Battlefield, Dreamland, Warioware, anything with a top platform (Although I like Yoshi's Melee because I kill super early and the side platforms are a good height for me to put pressure on the top.)

Hope this helps.

 

[Espi]

Yall get ready for 3.5, it's about to change everything.

 

[Lawn Chair]

GGNORE

youdntseethis

 

[GuruKid]

Yeah MK's changing quite a bit... hope ya'll are ready!

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

RIP MK's recovery 2013-2014

 

[AlmightySo]

:]]]]]]]]]]]

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

GuruKid I need to know (even though you probably can't say), yes or no, did MK's Dimensional Cape get changed in any way? Arrrrrggghhhhh I can't take the suspense!

 

[9bit]

Yeah MK's changing quite a bit... hope ya'll are ready!

Bro, pls

You can't just say stuff like that. 2 days I gotta wait to know!!

 

[Lawn Chair]

@ GuruKid You were not suppose to tell em! LMAOOO

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I'll say one thing. Dthrow.

 

[9bit]

 

[Espi]

Well, this is a dire situation. http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/

 

[Boiko]

Anyone know much about the MK:Yoshi MU? As of now, Rolex and Raptor are literally the only two people keeping me from getting 1st or 2nd at LI tourneys, but I've got the Snake MU all figured out so that's not a problem. It's the Yoshi MU that seems hopeless to me right now. He just CCs everything into that ridiculous downB and stuff.

heehee.

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

I'll say one thing. Dthrow.

MY BABY NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

Just as a wild guess, I'm gonna say that MK's down throw sends them straight up now. It would sort of make sense to me as it still allows for solid follow ups in up airs, back airs, and up-bs.

However, it is still a massive nerf as you can no longer use it to tech chase or do get super easy IDC follow ups and kills when near the ledge. Just a guess really, it would be interesting though.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Just as a wild guess, I'm gonna say that MK's down throw sends them straight up now. It would sort of make sense to me as it still allows for solid follow ups in up airs, back airs, and up-bs.

However, it is still a massive nerf as you can no longer use it to tech chase or do get super easy IDC follow ups and kills when near the ledge. Just a guess really, it would be interesting though.

Nah
ANYWAY
COMES OUT TOMORROW YALL CAN WAIT IN AGONY

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

FROM REDDIT/THE PM WEBSITE:

META KNIGHT

Brawl Down Air restored instead of the suicide dive of 3.02.

I'M FEELING SO MANY MIXED EMOTIONS RIGHT NOW I DON'T KNOW HOW TO TURN CAPS LOCK OFF

 

[Espi]

Ya, were gonna have to adapt so much.

 

[bubbaking]

MK got hit really hard by this nerf-hammer nonsense. The extreme lack of DC tech to develop for my own improvement is really pushing me to just drop this character altogether. That and the fact that pretty much every important move was either weakened, given later IASA frames, or made more SDIable.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

v3.5 was made so all of you would drop my character.

 

[Kappy]

If DC tech is one of the only ways you're looking to improve your play with MK, you've been playing him wrong. LOL.

 

[bubbaking]

I'm pretty sure I never said the word "only", and DC was one of the most flexible techs he had and it clearly showed the most room for expansion of his metagame. I'm pretty sure that almost the entire MK community was getting ready to look into how it could seriously develop DC tactics on a mainstream level, but right before it happened, BOOM, it's gone. If you weren't gearing yourself up to seriously improve with IDC, and DC in general, I think you were actually the one playing him wrong. Taking out most of his DC options and his divestab is pretty much equivalent to halving his mobility. It's somewhat analogous to removing Pika's QAC.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

As multi-main, I am giving Marth a bit more attention again, but I won't drop MK at all.

 

[Kappy]

Yeah, you forgot the "one of the" part before that only, bruh. LOL.

IDC is still a thing in 3.5 MK's game plan. It's not gone at all. The only two things they got rid of were the ability to attack out of an empty DC, the ability to jump + special out of a DC from the ground. Literally, that's it. I can still sweet spot the ledge from the air with it. I can still snag the ledge from stage with it. I can still mix up an opponent, tech chase, or punish a laggy move with the full DC slash. The only things missing are the ability to do the "infinite" DC by hitting the ground, attacking out of an empty DC and being completely safe when DC'ing from the ground to the air because you retained all of your jumps + specials, and from all the videos I've watched, only a handful have used DC to tech chase or abuse the 'infinite'.

I know I'm not too invested in the MK community at large since I only started coming here a couple weeks ago, but in my time here I've seen no MK really call out to others to gear up for crazy DC tactics. The ones I've mentioned are the ones MK's talk about, and the ones that I think are most relevant are still there (those being IDC, tech chasing/punishing with full DC slash, and sweet spotting the ledge from off and on stage). Were the 'infinite', jumping + special after a grounded DC to the air and attacking out of an empty DC so important to you that you think the move is ruined now? Because I don't think so, and I hope other MK's agree that the move is still very versatile.

 

[Jolteon]

Burst movement was one of the things that we heavily targeted for 3.5, this is not something unique to MK. MK's conventional movement options are far above average (great ground speed, amazing dash dance, relatively good jump, a good fast fall and multiple jumps) which leaves him as one of the more mobile members of the cast still.

As for down+B, its flexibility and recovery potency were bought in line with 3.5's design goals. I do respect that the move (and MK in general) are now more limited, but a recurring theme of 3.5 is creativity via limited tools, try hitting the lab and seeing what you can come up with. We tried to preserve the sheer KO power that down+B has, so its still a powerful tool for reads and as a combo finisher.

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

We tried to preserve the sheer KO power that down+B has, so its still a powerful tool for reads and as a combo finisher.

This I actually very much appreciate. People still do get scared when they see you disappear from halfway across the stage, and you can still easily get people with something like a d-throw tech read.

Yesterday, in fact, I was netplaying and remembered how scary DC really still is. I was fighting a Fox and he was shielding at the ledge, right as I DC'd from a little after the center of PS2. I just went straight for him as I knew the hit would make him fall to the ledge anyways, guaranteeing it to be a safe option. However, a few frames before I appeared, he got scared and tried to act out of his shield to avoid the hit or hit me or something, and I hit and KO'd him.

There are still a lot of mindgames to it, especially because it's so powerful, and I still like that. It's just that you have to play more conservatively with it and be smarter about using it.