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Metamorphosis: The Universal Yoshi Matchup Discussion Thread

Metatitan

Smash Master
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Peach's Fair's ending is lagless when autocanceled, you go for the grab and she can just spotdodge it, it's a nice little bait I like to use on people who think they can get an easy grab :)

Peach's Dair can be punished by up smash because it has a little end lag to it (believe it or not). However in that situation you're assuming I'm using it as a sort of wall and I'd generally use it when you try to get a grab. I wouldn't Dair if you turn around and run away because then you could just up smash my minor lag from the move. I generally use Dair to put myself in a position to avoid grabs and punish yoshi's grabbing position.

Long range camping from yoshi doesn't work on people who can powershield (or even spotdodge).

There are mainly four attacks I know of that **** yoshi: Fair, Dair, D smash, and Turnips. I'll go into detail after you guys debate some more, I enjoy seeing some truth in both arguments with a lot of flaws in both as well :)
 

Poltergust

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Also, as someone who can consistantly beat lucario and G&W down airs with up air, many angles of down air (or hitboxes im not sure) can in fact beat our up air.
Are you sure about this? I don't think that her d-air has more range than Lucario's or Mr. Game & Watch's...

:069:
 

Metatitan

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Her Dair hits from slight diagonal. If I space myself in the air and hit you from the side, my Dair will beat yoshi's Uair. If he can space Uair underneath me then his will win. Honestly I don't have much trouble being above yoshi because I know what's coming, it's mostly when I'm on the ledge where I have the trouble, if any.
 

.Marik

is a social misfit
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I'll update your main points later.

Uair is -really- effective against Peach, but like others said, only if we space and bait it accordingly so we don't get punished by Dair or Fair.

It's probably attributed to Yoshi's Uair having amazing range and Peach's airdodge being complete crap.
 

Bwett

Smash Ace
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Dec 14, 2005
Messages
791
Location
Dallas, TX (Land of the Killers)
Peach can't space against Yoshi's uair in the air. She has poor aerial mobility compared to Yoshi and we can always adjust pretty easily if you meagerly try to move in the air. It's useless in that regard. I used to play Kos-Mos alot so I know this matchup pretty well.

Keep in mind, that if I anticipate you are gonna do dair early, if I do usmash early, the usmash will win. That's why I said that after that one situation, it becomes RPS. There is alot of RPS in this matchup. Technically, against a perfect player, Yoshi can't approach Peach and Peach can't approach Yoshi. It's too hard.

Also, I agree with fair being a baiting tool. I'm talking about reading the fair with a dash or pivot grab. Fair can't be punished for it's lag, but can be punished if read. If Peach does happen to get a dair on Yoshi, it really isn't that big of deal. Yoshi can get out of her dair pretty easily compared to other characters.

Furthermore, let's say she catches a dair on Yoshi's shield. Once again, it's not a big deal. Unlike other characters, Yoshi isn't forced to react to Peach's aerial pressure because her dair is focused on lowering shield until the pressure of being shield poked becomes too great, forcing the opponent to react, and then punishing that reaction. You can stay in your shield the entire time and then either spotdodge or roll.

Lastly, those that think that powershield and spotdodge are the end-all be-all of egg camping obviously aren't doing it correctly. Let's say that your opponent is ahead by 50%, and you start camping. Eggs do 9%. It will take roughly 6 eggs to break even or possibly be in the lead. There are still 5 minutes on the clock. In a perfect world, the opponent will PS or spotdodge each egg. HOWEVER, we do not live in a world that is perfect. People rarely take mindgames into consideration when throwing eggs. If they try to spotdodge, just throw the egg past their body so it explodes behind them. It will properly bait and punish a spotdodge. Let's say they start trying to PS the eggs. Just changing up the speed and angle at which you throw the eggs will screw him up. All it takes is him to normal shield 1 egg. After that, he is in danger of being shieldpoked. You have 5 minutes and they do not have an infinite shield. You win in that situation.

Don't get me wrong, I believe this to be slightly in Peach's favor because of her turnip camp game. However, I believe it only to be 55:45.
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: Can you elaborate on your opinion on turnips in particular in this match?

I was gonna put the obligatory "just DR catch them," but I'm sure there's another dimension to it than that.

I don't know if what I've seen and experienced and done as far as turnips go is really high level or super tricky or whatnot, so I just want to get your input on how turnips affect the match for you personally.
 

.Marik

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I'll update the points now. Give me a minute. Also, update your lists now if you'd like.

I think we have enough for Peach. Let's focus on Meta Knight and other characters. Thanks. :yoshi:
 

Poltergust

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Can we work on Wolf. I know you guys hate him as much as I do.

Actually, scratch that. I hate him more. D:<


:069:
 

.Marik

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Sure, Wolf sounds like a plan.

Disregard what I had in the OP, re-post your lists here on this page so I can update them easier without having to dig through 21 pages.

Thanks.
 

hadesblade

Smash Lord
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Aug 3, 2008
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IN
Meta Knight - Disadvantage
Snake - Disadvantage
Wario - Even
Falco - Disadvantage
Diddy Kong - Disadvantage
King Dedede - Disadvantage
Marth - Disadvantage
Pikachu - Disadvantage
Olimar - Disadvantage
Ice Climbers - Disadvantage
R.O.B. - Disadvantage
Kirby - Disadvantage
Lucario - Disadvantage
Zero Suit Samus - Even
Toon Link - Disadvantage
Pit - Disadvantage
Donkey Kong - Even
Peach - Disdavantage
Mr. Game And Watch- Disadvantage
Luigi - Even
Fox - Disadvantage
Wolf - Disadvantage
Sonic - lolwut?
Sheik - Disadvantage
Bowser - Even
Zelda - Disadvantage
Pokémon Trainer - Even
Ike - Even
Lucas - Advantage
Mario - Disadvantage
Ness - Even
Yoshi - 20:80, yoshi's worst matchup :p
Samus - Even
Jigglypuff - Even
Captain Falcon - Even
Link - Advantage
Ganondorf - Advantage

><
 

Oh.

Smash Apprentice
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Jun 3, 2008
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113
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The only brawler in Fredericksburg
Am I too late

Meta Knight - Disadvantage
Snake - Disadvantage
Wario - Even
Falco - Disadvantage
Diddy Kong - Disadvantage
King Dedede - Disadvantage
Marth - Disadvantage
Pikachu - Disadvantage
Olimar - Disadvantage
Ice Climbers - Disadvantage
R.O.B. - Disadvantage
Kirby - Disadvantage
Lucario - Disadvantage
Zero Suit Samus - Disadvantage
Toon Link - Disadvantage
Pit - Disadvantage
Donkey Kong - Disadvantage
Peach - Disadvantage
Mr. Game And Watch- Disadvantage
Luigi - Disadvantage
Fox - Disadvantage
Wolf - Disadvantage
Sonic - Disadvantage
Sheik - Even
Bowser - Advantage
Zelda - Disadvantage
Pokémon Trainer - Advantage
Ike - Advantage
Lucas - Advantage
Mario - Even
Ness - Advantage
Yoshi - Sex
Samus - Disadvantage
Jigglypuff - Disadvantage
Captain Falcon - Advantage
Link - Even
Ganondorf - Advantage
 

.Marik

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No, you're fine. I'll include you in the summarized matchups now.

Thanks, if you have any matchup experience you'd like to share, feel free to do so.
 

ZomgNinjah!!!1

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Nov 18, 2009
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99
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*****lando
Meta Knight - Even
Snake - Advantage
Wario - Even
Falco - Disadvantage
Diddy Kong - Disadvantage
King Dedede - Disadvantage
Marth - Disadvantage
Pikachu - <<< F@#k that yellow piece of **** - IMMENSE Disadvantage
Olimar - Disadvantage
Ice Climbers - Even
R.O.B. - Even
Kirby - Even
Lucario - HOLY F@#KING **** >=(
Zero Suit Samus - Disadvantage
Toon Link - Disadvantage
Pit - Even
Donkey Kong - Advantage
Peach - Even (Unless its Kyon, then I get *****. He knows my play style too well)
Mr. Game And Watch- Even
Luigi - I don't even know
Fox - Even
Wolf - Disadvantage
Sonic - Even
Sheik - Even
Bowser - Advantage
Zelda - Even
Pokémon Trainer:
Squirtle: Disadvantage
Ivysaur: Even
Charizard: Advantage
Ike - Even
Lucas - Even
Mario - Even
Ness - Even
Yoshi - OMFG FML!
Samus - Even
Jigglypuff - Advantage
Captain Falcon - Advantage
Link - Advantage
Ganondorf - Advantage
 

.Marik

is a social misfit
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3,695
Meta Knight - Even
Snake - Advantage
Wario - Even
Falco - Disadvantage
Diddy Kong - Disadvantage
King Dedede - Disadvantage
Marth - Disadvantage
Pikachu - <<< F@#k that yellow piece of **** - IMMENSE Disadvantage
Olimar - Disadvantage
Ice Climbers - Even
R.O.B. - Even
Kirby - Even
Lucario - HOLY F@#KING **** >=(
Zero Suit Samus - Disadvantage
Toon Link - Disadvantage
Pit - Even
Donkey Kong - Advantage
Peach - Even (Unless its Kyon, then I get *****. He knows my play style too well)
Mr. Game And Watch- Even
Luigi - I don't even know
Fox - Even
Wolf - Disadvantage
Sonic - Even
Sheik - Even
Bowser - Advantage
Zelda - Even
Pokémon Trainer:
Squirtle: Disadvantage
Ivysaur: Even
Charizard: Advantage
Ike - Even
Lucas - Even
Mario - Even
Ness - Even
Yoshi - OMFG FML!
Samus - Even
Jigglypuff - Advantage
Captain Falcon - Advantage
Link - Advantage
Ganondorf - Advantage
I'll add your input.

Imma add a list when i have more time but can someone give me a semi brief summery of the snake M-U?
Front page.
 

Shiri

Smash Chump
Joined
Nov 7, 2004
Messages
3,804
:yoshi: Sorry.

I really should have shown more restraint there; I apologize.
 

CelestialMarauder~

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
935
Location
New Jersey
Meta Knight - Disadvantage
Snake - Even
Wario - Even
Falco - Disadvantage
Diddy Kong - Disadvantage
King Dedede - Disadvantage (not sure anymore actually)
Marth - Disadvantage
Pikachu - Even
Olimar - FFFFFFFFFFFFF hate him Disadvantage
Ice Climbers - Even (disadvantage if you get grabbed :p)
R.O.B. - Even
Kirby - Disadvantage
Lucario - Disadvantage
Zero Suit Samus - (nope)
Toon Link - (no idea)
Pit - (i wanna say disadvantage but idk)
Donkey Kong - Advantage
Peach - Disadvantage
Mr. Game And Watch- Disadvantage
Luigi - Disadvantage
Fox - Even
Wolf - Disadvantage
Sonic - (This matchup confuzzels me)
Sheik - Disadvantage
Bowser - Even
Zelda - Disadvantage
Pokémon Trainer - (idk)
Ike - Even
Lucas - (I have no idea)
Mario - Even
Ness - Advantage
Yoshi - ............. 0 - 100 Yoshis favor. I say they bump him up on the tier list
Samus - Even
Jigglypuff - Advantage
Captain Falcon - Even (lol i love this matchup)
Link - Disadvantage
Ganondorf - Advantage
 

bigman40

Smash Master
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Oct 11, 2007
Messages
3,859
Location
Just another day.
Lol, as much as I know both of those characters, I would rather do someone that we obviously fear more (Wolf/Lucario/Snake/Marth/Olimar). I have good MU exp on D3, Marth, and DK. So I'll try to give some input on all of them.

DDD -

This can become a boring MU (I see it happening in the future), but some of the CPs Yoshi can pick can make it fun too since he's soo big. Obviously, you want to be careful cause CGs mean 40%+ every time and being placed offstage/on the ledge (which is quite bad for us). You want to bait moves out before attacking cause it's gonna be your main way to getting in good starting damage. From there, you want to mix in Bairs, Egg lays, and pivot grabs to keep them in the air and to keep us on the offensive. Keep your spacing with ETS, and keep DR to a minimum.

If you get CGed, pay attention and mix up spotdodges and Fsmashes. You don't want D3 to match your Fsmash with his or else your dead. As for being on the ledge, you HAVE to mix up from how many eggs you throw to whether you'll DJ up with egglay/aerials or just use the normal getup options. We're somewhat fine when our damage is under 100, but after that, things get really ugly from there (and I haven't figured out ways to help this either).

Keep your Uair fresh for killing at 150%, and use DownB when you have the chance since it'll kill at that same percent too. Usmash isn't worth killing in this MU cause it don't kill till the opponent is about 180% fresh, but don't abuse it cause it's simple to counter if you're playing dumb with it.

Marth -

Have fun using the ENTIRE stage running from his sword. I happen to like this MU more than the Lucario MU since Marth's hitboxes are at least ****ing realistic (Mostly all of the anyway). For the most part, DR works well here since you need to be ready to get chip damage in when Marth misses a Fair. All of yoshi's normal ATs we've been using are used often here (no surprise) but egg lay is kept to a slightly less use. Stay grounded most of the time cause being in te air is asking to get thrown everywhere. Remember that you have DJ through the down version of DB (the multi-hitting one) and learn to SDI DB too (although I suck at SDI). If Marth is one the ledge, leave him be and just throw eggs from a slight mid range. whatever option he uses, we can normally punish it with ease as long as your paying attention.

Oh, and when you get knocked off and you recover high, start using wavebounced egglays to make em miss. If you do the move right, you can sometimes punish them for trying to attack us while you recover (like a reversal wavebounced egglay).

DK -

Power. Why are we afraid of this? The only thing truly scary IMO is Dsmash, which you can block if you stay calm. He gets juggled very easily and he has very little options from the ledge. Patience is of virtue here as he can't compete well with the zoning of eggs and the mixups with egg lay. however, I will admit that walking Ftilt can be annoying. If you happen to get caught in it, just walk away.

When juggling him, chase him with wavebounced egglays incase he airdodges early, pivot grabs/Bairs to abuse his landing, and Fsmash when you can understand the timing for it (I know cause I still fail at the timing for it often). DK's Bair is annoying and unpunishable from a normal SH (considering if you spotdodge, shield, or try to attack inbetween Bairs). Keep your distance and pivot grab it or just don't fight it at all. One thing though, if you can get lucky at timing things, you can probably slide an Usmash to trade hits.

When trying to kill, use DownB when punishing his landing lag, drop off Uairs when pressuring offstage (it kills him well from the ledge), or Fsmashes to punish his lag. Usmash works too, but I don't kill with it often. Oh, and just remember that Dair > Nair/Uair truly combos when the opponent is over 100%. If you use Dair on a shield, then try to Bair to make his shield dumbly small and shield poke, which can lead to a free Fsmash from the hitstun of the Bairs (except the fourth hit).

For the drop off Uairs, I don't have it down completely, but it's an extremely good option to use on him since he's forced to recover higher. If he does this, you can DJ up and Uair him. If you can force him close to the ledge while you grab it, you basically have 1 free Uair on him. It's a great tactic to pressure DK when recovering (only in terms of you trying to kill him).

Lastly, careful when egging from the ledge. Dsmash will say hi, and your stock will say goodbye at the same time.

Pikachu -

I wish I had MU exp for this, but w/e. Tjolts are gonna be common to neutralize the ground. learn to ping them out, but make sure that pika isn't at mid/close range when you're about to do this. You're basically gonna be asked to get hit/grabbed while trying to defend yourself from the Tjolt. For the most part, I would say to stay grounded, and to try using DR to keep your speed. Pika can CG us for a little (20% I think?), after that, we can Nair, but sometimes they'll expect that and shield, so keep that in mind. learn to DI up out of Dsmash, and please god do not airdodge into the ground cause that's when you'll be asking to get Dsmashed. Space yourself with Jabs, Ftilts and Dtilts cause OoS Nair can **** Yoshi, but it's a consequence for using it too much as it's his killing move.

Uair can sometimes combo into Nair so be ready to DI Uair. DI up to get out of Bair, and learn to not ****ing momentum cancel when pika is below. Unless you have great DI reaction, you'll get thundered and lose a stock for momentum canceling. Uh.....if pika is on the ledge, just egg him cause he has two main options that make him hard to punish (QAC and the normal getup options). Plus, drop off Uair will hit us if we try to get risky over the ledge.

Bleh.....Lots of info and I got lazy at the end. Anyway, take this how you want.
 

.Marik

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Oh dear.

I suggested the reason we do Pikachu is because you play him as well. :yoshi:

Can I update later? Haha, first thing tommorow morning I promise.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Pikachu is so gay.
The main thing is that he punishes little things really bad, and easily.
Down air is possible the most annoying move in existance.

We eat him alive on the ground, and if you can not let him inside we can out range him with back air and neutral air.
 

Metatitan

Smash Master
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Messages
3,576
Location
Six Feet Under
Oh dear.

I suggested the reason we do Pikachu is because you play him as well. :yoshi:

Can I update later? Haha, first thing tommorow morning I promise.
It's pretty even until it comes time to killing, where pikachu wins by a little. Pikachu also punishes a lot harder than yoshi does.

Pikachu is so gay.
The main thing is that he punishes little things really bad, and easily.
Down air is possible the most annoying move in existance.

We eat him alive on the ground, and if you can not let him inside we can out range him with back air and neutral air.
Bwahahahaha

I agree with Bair, disagree with Nair. Yoshi's Nair has horrible range, Pika's Fair probably outranges it. Yoshi's grab game is a ***** for pikachu, though I haven't put the time into this matchup as much I'll probably start sometime assuming you're willing Beau.


Uhhh Eternal Yoshi said we can't juggle snake how can't we?
Yoshi's Uair has a lot of cooldown (enough to where yoshi can actually Uair the other yoshi after a Uair in dittos). That and if someone has yoshi experience it's pretty easy to see coming (either straight attack, bait the airdodge with a full hop/eggtoss, etc.). If you're gonna juggle him your best chance is D/U Throw.
 

.Marik

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I'm going to update Yoshi vs. Pikachu in the OP.

Please give me a couple of minutes. :yoshi:

*Edit* Updating these things are a pain.

Anyways, Shiri, I can't seem to find the Yoshi vs. Pikachu matchup thread, and I keep getting a 500 HTTP error everytime I attempt to search.

Some more quotes would be extremely helpful, thanks in advance.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Kay
Snake can just b reversal to avoid a juggle, else you can if you read an airdodge or a bair.
We can grab him on landing super easily though, which is the only reason yoshi doesnt lose 100-0 in this matchup .

Marth is rediculously hard if they know the matchup well, full hop zonings does work on yoshi.
I used to be able to beat havoks marth but idk about now, i havent played him recently.

Scat you are wrong about lucario its not that bad at all.
 

Shiri

Smash Chump
Joined
Nov 7, 2004
Messages
3,804
:yoshi: Marik, stop your crazy trolling.

Just go to the matchup thread and click on the link next to Pikachu's name. D:<

I pretty much put all the info you could ever really want about Pikachu in there, anyway.
 

.Marik

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But I honestly couldn't find it, or search for it. :yoshi:

I'll try again.
 
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