Mewtwo Patch (Version 1.0.6[7]) Thread [Updated: May 1st]

[-LzR-]

He quite clearly states upB has no changes in knockback. I'm not sure about the other changes but that part was the one I was referring to.
I really don't know what to believe anymore, is upB buffed or not.

 

[Neb]

What I provided you with were two videos in which utilt is performed directly out of dthrow at an early percent range. Both hitboxes connect, and yet yield different results.

Below are pre-patch videos displaying utilt with vertical KB...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDGWuFYi4gU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brRJKXyrbsM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQLqH-kJXak

Here, it chains...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycVDZn7KO7A

And lastly, I never stated which hitbox had changed. Only that something was different. The first hit appears to keep the opponent at G&W's front, and the second backward if chained. Then forward, if G&W is facing away from his target, and connects with the back of the flag.

 

[Shaya]

He quite clearly states upB has no changes in knockback. I'm not sure about the other changes but that part was the one I was referring to.
I really don't know what to believe anymore, is upB buffed or not.

Well an angle difference would feasibly result in the same thing.
Aerodrome needs to post in here so I can force a fight to the death with Thinkaman.

What I provided you with were two videos in which utilt is performed directly out of dthrow at an early percent range. Both hitboxes connect, and yet yield different results.

Below are pre-patch videos displaying utilt with vertical KB...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDGWuFYi4gU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brRJKXyrbsM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQLqH-kJXak

Here, it chains...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycVDZn7KO7A

And lastly, I never stated which hitbox had changed. Only that something was different. The first hit appears to keep the opponent at G&W's front, and the second backward if chained. Then forward, if G&W is facing away from his target, and connects with the back of the flag.

Both hitboxes prior to this patch already did not send directly vertically up <fact> (it's 100 degrees)
In that case what I'm asking you is, what actually is changed ? First hit? Second hit? How? I may be missing something very obvious. But every hit of up tilt i'm seeing in everything you're linking still seems to mostly maintain this angle. Mario CPU falling in the opposite direction on which he got hit is... dubious too.

EIther way he's currently listed under the "something's different we don't know how" part. Although I'm still not getting what the fuss is about. My personally testing is still showing both hits being 100 trajectories...

 

[Neb]

@ Shaya

The second hit has changed. I'm not sure how else to convince you of this - it seems clear to me. Instead of a vertical/straight up and down KB, it positions them behind G&W or forward if hitting with the backend of the flag. You tell me this was always so, but I provide videos to you that show otherwise.

 

[-LzR-]

Well an angle difference would feasibly result in the same thing.
Aerodrome needs to post in here so I can force a fight to the death with Thinkaman.

Sounds good enough to me. I'll grab the popcorn.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Up b has no knockback change, there's the possibility of an angle change, but I think the difference in percent is the CPU using fail DI in training mode now.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Heads up @ Shaya , you have Luma's HP as 52% > 48% when it's actually 52% > 47%.

Edit: @ KuroganeHammer , why not just set the CPU to control?

Again, if someone would tell me how to delete the patch, and only the patch, without losing customs/other junk, I'd test v1.0.0 Fly vs v1.0.6 to check for angle changes too

 

[Shaya]

@ Shaya

The second hit has changed. I'm not sure how else to convince you of this - it seems clear to me. Instead of a vertical/straight up and down KB, it positions them behind G&W or forward if hitting with the backend of the flag. You tell me this was always so, but I provide videos to you that show otherwise.

http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore2/index.php?char=gamewatch&mode=view104#subaction-05C

Hitbox_026(ID=0x0, GID=0x0, Bone=0x18, Damage=7.000000, Angle=0x64, KBG=0x7F, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x14, Size=5.500000, Z=0.000000, Y=2.800000, X=2.400000, Element=0x0, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x1, 0x2, 0x3, 0x1, 0x9, )
Hitbox_026(ID=0x1, GID=0x0, Bone=0x18, Damage=7.000000, Angle=0x64, KBG=0x7D, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x14, Size=3.000000, Z=0.000000, Y=-1.500000, X=0.000000, Element=0x0, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x1, 0x2, 0x3, 0x1, 0x9, )

That is a 100 degree angle. Also the trajectory a move sends is a function of the attached bone's position at the time it hits (if you have something sending at 45 degrees and the bone is flipped upside down it'll go 315 [I could be messing up my basic maths here, but you get the point])

So, the question is, what was everyone believing the angle was meant to send at before? And unless I truly am blind I'm yet to see anything that's telling me that the second hit isn't still sending at 100 degrees. The only weird thing is that the backwards part of the second hit is sending people forwards now which does make sense but sounds like that wasn't the case before.

What is possible is they've decided to alter the hitbox to have a different angle towards it's end (Marth's up tilt does this)? Everything else you're showing me still seems to be the same.

 

[Neb]

90° pre-patch > 100° post

...I have to assume that you may, in fact, be truly blind.

 

[Shaya]

90° pre-patch > 100° post

...I have to assume that you may, in fact, be truly blind.

Well I do have objective proof right here it was 100 post and prepatch. I may have to assume you don't actually know what you're talking about, as does the rest of the G&W boards.

http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore2/index.php?char=gamewatch&mode=view104#subaction-05C

 

[Lavani]

Again, if someone would tell me how to delete the patch, and only the patch, without losing customs/other junk, I'd test v1.0.0 Fly vs v1.0.6 to check for angle changes too

So I actually found a really easy way to get around this if you have a physical copy of the game: pop out the SD card, start the game, then put it back in after saying no to the first prompt.

Otherwise...

Spoiler

G:\Nintendo 3DS\4c2d2dc9a68010b9e608da60844fd966\957d00d43112910c3030303000284245\title\0004008c\000edf00 is the filepath for Sm4sh's patch folder on my 3DS. Don't know if the first few folders are the same for every 3DS but \title\0004008c\000edf00 should be consistent, and can be temporarily removed from and reapplied to the SD card.

90° pre-patch > 100° post

...I have to assume that you may, in fact, be truly blind.

All four hitboxes on utilt pre-patch are 100°

Honestly the second hit does seem to launch differently than the first hit in 1.0.6 but considering I'd have to unlock G&W again if I unpatched to compare I'm not going to bother with that grind when the eventual 1.0.6 data dump will effortlessly verify (or debunk) any change.

 

[Neb]

@ Shaya

Haha! - no need to get defensive. I'm trying to figure it out just as you are. For whatever reason, there is now a curl at the top of the trajectory. Data will always be fact. It sends the character at 100° - yes - right up until the very end of the trajectory. And that's where things get blurry.

 

[Shaya]

So can we agree that this is one of those things we cannot call definite and wait for brighter pastures?

I have a few theories why it seems to be acting different (to those previously well versed in it):
1. Auto Link added (this screws everything)
2. Later portion of the animation has an angle change
3. Or the reflection of the angle based on bone position is now "flipped" (although I'd love to see backwards hit of the second hit on pre-patch so I can properly understand the difference)
4. Or confirmation bias of the century

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Heads up @ Shaya , you have Luma's HP as 52% > 48% when it's actually 52% > 47%.

Edit: @ KuroganeHammer , why not just set the CPU to control?

Again, if someone would tell me how to delete the patch, and only the patch, without losing customs/other junk, I'd test v1.0.0 Fly vs v1.0.6 to check for angle changes too

Can't on 3DS. Control doesn't exist.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Can't on 3DS. Control doesn't exist.

So you are using the 3DS, I figured as much. If there was an easy way to unpatch Wii U this would be a non-issue but I guess for the time being we are at Dant's will

 

[Lavani]

Can't on 3DS. Control doesn't exist.

Pausing prevents the CPU from inputting DI in training on 3DS.

 

[Neb]

Something IS, in fact, there... as opposed to nothing at all. This being the reason behind my post from the start. Though I'm hoping an explanation will eventually surface to explain it. Let's wait for those pastures.

 

[Pink'd]

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Pausing prevents the CPU from inputting DI in training on 3DS.

Cool

I am confirming that the fly change is indeed bull**** then

 

[Lavani]

So can we agree that this is one of those things we cannot call definite and wait for brighter pastures?

I have a few theories why it seems to be acting different (to those previously well versed in it):
1. Auto Link added (this screws everything)
2. Later portion of the animation has an angle change
3. Or the reflection of the angle based on bone position is now "flipped" (although I'd love to see backwards hit of the second hit on pre-patch so I can properly understand the difference)
4. Or confirmation bias of the century

Well, unless G&W's utilt had some bizarre quirks I'm not aware of, I think we can rule out 4 because I would expect a move with four 100° hitboxes to have a consistent launch angle.

1.0.6 first hit of utilt vs second hit on 999% Ike:

Second hit's KB is quite a bit more horizontal.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Cool

I am confirming that the fly change is indeed bull**** then

Well

Testing v1.0.0 3DS vs v1.0.6 Wii U unangled Fly on Mario at starting spawn point (right) on FD-Omega (lmao)

The angle does indeed seem exactly the same, but Fly gets red thunder @106% on the Wii U, while on the 3DS it doesn't get it until 116%. I did the pause trick on the 3DS Lavani described. I'm aware that there are some slight blastzone differences between the versions but 10% seems like too much. Unless there was a Fly buff that had already happened before v1.0.6?

Edit: Mastercore patch diffs is showing no changes on Fly (only change within lizardon is on subaction 218, a single 8%, fire attribute hitbox. Parameter 24 0x3F > 0x1F)

 

[Shaya]

@ Lavani

Could you try a shorter character too to ensure it's the second hit's last moments?

That result could still be due to the reflection of the bone, the start up of up tilt is mostly vertical (so in it's base position where 100 degree knockback is being shown), while the second hit is at least 30 degrees rotated.

 

[Pyr]

So, might be useful, might not be due to a bug or whatever... Selecting Smashbros from the little circle of stuff is the only way I've ever been able to get the damn thing to patch.

Selecting it from the listing of games/apps in the square format (think Original Wii's opening screen to select things), while on the gamepad, never prompts for a patch. Was the same for all the WiiU Patches so far... Might be a way to play on an unpatched game if you can unpatch.

Unless my system is bugged or it's a bug in general, which I wouldn't put past being possible. Just food for thought to anyone willing to unpatch and test.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Well

Testing v1.0.0 3DS vs v1.0.6 Wii U unangled Fly on Mario at starting spawn point (right) on FD-Omega (lmao)

The angle does indeed seem exactly the same, but Fly gets red thunder @106% on the Wii U, while on the 3DS it doesn't get it until 116%. I did the pause trick on the 3DS Lavani described. I'm aware that there are some slight blastzone differences between the versions but 10% seems like too much. Unless there was a Fly buff that had already happened before v1.0.6?

Edit: Mastercore patch diffs is showing no changes on Fly (only change within lizardon is on subaction 218, a single 8%, fire attribute hitbox. Parameter 24 0x3F > 0x1F)

blastzones.

Don't test between console/handheld pls

 

[Indigo Jeans]

b-but 10% yo... I mean I'd understand if it were 1% or 2% but 10% seems like a lot plus I've always felt blastzones were actually smaller on 3DS.

Oh well, in any case yeah no change, when I tested it again on v1.0.6 3DS red thunder still didin't happen until 116%.

 

[Lavani]

Well

Testing v1.0.0 3DS vs v1.0.6 Wii U unangled Fly on Mario at starting spawn point (right) on FD-Omega (lmao)

The angle does indeed seem exactly the same, but Fly gets red thunder @106% on the Wii U, while on the 3DS it doesn't get it until 116%. I did the pause trick on the 3DS Lavani described. I'm aware that there are some slight blastzone differences between the versions but 10% seems like too much. Unless there was a Fly buff that had already happened before v1.0.6?

It's the version difference, 3DS blast zones are noticeably larger than Wii U.

@ Lavani

Could you try a shorter character too to ensure it's the second hit's last moments?

That result could still be due to the reflection of the bone, the start up of up tilt is mostly vertical (so in it's base position where 100 degree knockback is being shown), while the second hit is at least 30 degrees rotated.

Mario and Duck Hunt returned identical results.

 

[Steeler]

In other Charizard news, down tilt now hits on frame 9 and FAF is 31, down from 11 and 33. This is replicable by simultaneously inputting the dtilt vs ganon jab (frame 8) and dtilt (10).

 

[Omega Tyrant]

In other Charizard news, down tilt now hits on frame 9 and FAF is 31, down from 11 and 33. This is replicable by simultaneously inputting the dtilt vs ganon jab (frame 8) and dtilt (10).

This is great, I was right when it seemed to be completing faster in my own testing. Should have gotten an ending lag reduction too, but any speed buff to Zard's forward/down tilts will be of significant help.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

In other Charizard news, down tilt now hits on frame 9 and FAF is 31, down from 11 and 33. This is replicable by simultaneously inputting the dtilt vs ganon jab (frame 8) and dtilt (10).

OH I FOUND THIS ONE. PRAISE ME

 

[LancerStaff]

So uh, not to sound impatient, but when's Datarion going to update his program? Don't remember it taking this long last time...

 

[Indigo Jeans]

So uh, not to sound impatient, but when's Datarion going to update his program? Don't remember it taking this long last time...

Dant is out of town I think

 

[LancerStaff]

Dant is out of town I think

I heard he was supposed to be back two days ago.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Can someone do a quick side-by-side comparison of Jr's cannon? My notes show that it's 2 frames less endlag on the uncharged cannon (shield on frame 83 -> shield on frame 81) and a 2 frame start-up increase on max charge cannon (104 -> 106) but I may have simply miscounted.

Same for his koopa kart: seems he's able to cancel into spinout much earlier (9 frames) but I just might not have cancelled it earlier enough originally.

Since Jr was one of the early characters I made the frame data for, I've since lost the pre-patch footage I used for frame-counting him, so I can't re-check myself.

 

[Mister Eric]

• Tilting the analog stick + smash stick together no longer produces tilts, but rather smash attacks. [NOOOOOOOOOOO]

=[ </3

 

[Solreth]

Nuuuuuu why did you tell everyone about the Gazelle Punch?!?!?!?!

Ill tell you what, to make up for it, Ill also start calling it the gazelle punch. I all ready call my constant wave dancing the dempsey roll.

 

[Unknownkid]

So are we done here or you guys still high off the placebo?

 

[Vipermoon]

I found a change for all characters!!

This was performed randomly on Falco, Mario, and Marth. So you know how when you run off stage your character is falling with a flipping animation? In previous versions, that animation happened only if the character finished performing their initial dash before falling off.

In 1.0.6, your character will do the flipping animation even if your initial dash wasn't complete. A perfect character to try this on between versions is Marth because he has a very long initial dash (for those of you who don't know, an initial dash is the beginning part of your dash that you can't cancel with shield). Conclusion: standing at the ledge and running off will now do the special animation no matter how far you are from the ledge.

Will this affect anything? Since the animation can be canceled whenever, it won't. But it's still something that changed.

So are we done here or you guys still high off the placebo?

We are not because that^^ is not placebo

 

[Quickhero]

So are we done here or you guys still high off the placebo?

We really do need some frame data before we can guarantee conclude anything. Until then, we just gotta keep on going since even if we've discovered most/all of the changes, we still have no concrete confirmation until the frame data is revealed. :\

 

[LordWilliam1234]

I did find something else with Link.

The minimum charge time of his spin attack was reduced by 3 frames.

Pre-patch it was 7, with 4 frames of start-up (minimum start-up time 11). Now it's 4, with 4 frames of start-up (minimum start-up time 8).

Gif evidence (top is pre-patch, bottom is post-patch):

Note that I included the frame before the move starts.

I'm pretty sure I didn't mess up the charge time; if you look closely the animation during the initial charge is faster.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I did find something else with Link.

The minimum charge time of his spin attack was reduced by 3 frames.

Pre-patch it was 7, with 4 frames of start-up (minimum start-up time 11). Now it's 4, with 4 frames of start-up (minimum start-up time 8).

Gif evidence (top is pre-patch, bottom is post-patch):

Note that I included the frame before the move starts.

I'm pretty sure I didn't mess up the charge time; if you look closely the animation during the initial charge is faster.

Faster startup on spin attack? That's actually a really good buff, given one of Link's big problems is out of shield options.

Did you check Shocking Spin? Unfortunately that move didn't get any damage buffs.