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Mindgames

Brainjack

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
279
alright, so we all know what they are, why they're necessary, why they can so much more important than tech skill, etc.

but....which character actually needs the most mindgames (i obviously know that every char needs them, but for which are mindgames most essential)

i.e. if you're not good mentally, you should never even begin playing _______


my vote is falcon, i've been trying to tell my friend, meatsauce, this recently, and trying to convince him to pick someone else cuz he just doesn't have enough mindgames for cf.....

lets just evaluate top/high tier cuz or else....we'd be having tier johns.

comment.
 

Ethan.

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 19, 2007
Messages
557
Location
Wisjohnsin
you don't need mindgames for falcon, you need to be able to kill somone if they make a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes, so you dont need mindgames to "Force" your opponent to make a mistake.

they help falcon like they help everyone else, but falcon doesn't stick out of the bunch as somone who needs them more than say... mewtwo
 

Vulcan55

Smash Lord
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May-Lay
Mindgames are not character specific.
You should play mindgames no matter who you are.
 

Da Shuffla

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
1,810
Mindgames do involve prediction, and knowing what your opponent will do. Falcon's game involves a lot of tech-chasing and prediction, so I can see where he's coming from. But I don't think Falcon needs them the most.
 

Binx

Smash Master
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Tech skill opens up the opportunity to use mind games and it's equally important. If you cannot make yourself wavedash 100% of the time you try to do it then it's a less reliable option to juke someone with, you need to be able to wavedash, waveland, l cancel, short hop, and successfully use all of your moves when you want to such as tilts and aerials in the right directions with the spacing you meant to use.

Most people will react certain ways to certain things and different levels of skill. At a low level of skill players react predictably and use many techniques that are ineffective at higher levels of play such as random forward smashes with Marth. Something to remember that I've heard from Cactuar and have been implementing on my own is that movement > moves. It is much more important to be able to run around the stage fluidly before and after attacks, I mostly play fox now but this is true for all characters. Here is why that's so important, play that game where you hold out your hands and the others person hands are under yours and just have them sit there under your hands for 5 minutes occasionally twitching but never slapping, when they finally do slap it's going to be so unexpected you probably will not be able to react to it. The same happens in melee, you do actions that appear aggressive but with spacing that makes it so that you can't be punished for it the whole time you are really just 'twitching' under their hands making them nervous, sooner or later you rush in before they can react and keep enough pressure going to finish off the stock, then they come back from invincibility and probably kill you, assuming you play at a high level.

About tactics, they change based on skill as well, against low level people my tactics vary, either 1) I just run around wait for them to miss and just kill them, or 2 if they are slightly better and won't throw an attack for a second I just bum rush them before they expect it and if they are bad enough they won't DI properly and you can get some very easy kills. Against better players it involves a lot more poking and prodding to see how they react to things, even top pros usually have a way they like to react in certain situations, the difference is that once you find it you only get to exploit it ONE time so make it count and get the stock.

Have fun and play smart,
Binx
 

Brainjack

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
279
Mindgames do involve prediction, and knowing what your opponent will do. Falcon's game involves a lot of tech-chasing and prediction, so I can see where he's coming from. But I don't think Falcon needs them the most.
THANK YOU!!!!

finally someone who understands what i'm saying

so who do you think needs prediction the most?

sorry, double post
 

Brainjack

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
279
ummmm what??!?!? does falcon suck?!?!

no......but it's hard to play him well....but if you play him well he can be sweet

huh?
 

Stratford

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 22, 2008
Messages
2,470
Location
Malden, MA
I personally think that Shiek takes some sweet mindgames to **** with. Like Drephen is a pretty good example. Even KDJ, who was an agressive rapist, still had some pretty sweet mindgames.

Also have you ever heard of Petta?
 

DtJ Jungle

Check out my character in #GranblueFantasy
BRoomer
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sometimes it goes beyond character specific to match up specific as well..i think marth dittos requires sick mindgames as do falco dittos (lasers O_o)


screw petta...have you heard of Kun?
 

Brainjack

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
279
well true facts indeed.

except sometimes the line between being mindgamed and mind****ed becomes eminent.

comment.
 

DtJ Jungle

Check out my character in #GranblueFantasy
BRoomer
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what do u mean...that thinking about using mindgames might cause you to get mindgamed? i dont understand
 

Brainjack

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
279
I really don't understand the point of this thread. Mindgames are equally important for everyone.
good ****ing john

that is hosnetly one of the dumbest things ive ever heard

NO ****TTT EVERYONE NEEDS MINDGAMES THAT'S NOT THE POINT

READ DIP****
 

Stratford

Smash Champion
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Oct 22, 2008
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Malden, MA
If you wanna get into the difference between mindgames and mind****s, I think you need look no further than CF and Shiek. CF would of course be the mindgamer, while Shiek is inherently a mind****er.
 

Overload

Smash Lord
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I'd say the slower the charcter and the more lag that character has from its attacks the more it has to rely on mindgames to compete. Like Bowser.
 

Binx

Smash Master
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Jul 19, 2006
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Portland, Oregon
Fox takes the most mindgames cause if you get hit one time, or fall off the edge you die.

PS: all characters take playing smart to do well with, and no character really takes the most, I just wanted to put something about fox here cause everyone ignored my good advice.
 

1048576

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
3,417
Roy, since he's so KO ********, the only way to get a kill is to have your opponent walk into a move with large start-up time.
 

R3N0

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 29, 2006
Messages
1,899
o_O this thread is boring.. everyone needs mindgames to win.. consistently and convincingly. You can have a tech master god, .. silent wolf. and still be awful. b/c you get hit too much.

thats all.
falcon needs mindgames. but most of all he needs spacing.
maybe a lot of you are confusing spacing for mindgames. =/
 

IrArby

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
883
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Portsmouth VA
The need for mindgames IMO correspondes directly to a chars ability to approach safely + (and this is important) how neccesary it is for them to approach.

Essentially, a char like Falco has one of the safer approaches in the game (why? d lazrrs o'course!). Yes he can vary how often, how high, etc. his lasers come out but good falcos can put together nearly inescapable approaches using their lasers. No mindgames crucailly needed there.

Plus, Falco has the option of not approaching at all. His lasers rack up enough damage without an approach and thus no mind game. Remember, the ultimate goal of a mindgame is to hit the opponent. Falco can do this with lasers from afar.

No say you have Bowser. His dash dance isn't fooling anyone. I'm not even sure what his main approach is and he can't get around as quickly as others to vary his approach and be unpredictable. Still he has to approach or be camped against the spacies, Marth, Shiek, anyone with a decent projectile, the list goes on.

All in all, I'd say Bowser's need to approach and inability to do so very safely requires that he has the most mindgames. I'm not firmly set on this opinion or anything though since there are more than a few bottom characters that I'm not very knowledgeable about.

Then again, I'm wondering about chars who cannot comobo well or set up for and execute edgeguards well might also need more mindgames since they have to approach many times for a kill. The more I think about it the more I'm start to think the tier is the best indicator. The higher up you go the more chars who have more guaranteed type combos and whatever.
Plus, Bowser edgeguards like a champ in alot of matchups. Mewto . . . Pichu . . . not so much.
Your thoughts?
 

Brainjack

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
279
IrArby, great post

i completley agree with the falco statement (for you *******es out there, YES WE KNOW HE STILL NEEDS MINDGAMES). i was talking about this with my friend the other day, and yes basically falco's lasers cause him to at least start off with less mindgames and consequently cause his opponents to need MORE mindgames to actaully attack him

and with your discussion about the tiers....i believe this is kinda obvious that the worse the char, generally speaking, the more mindgames you need, but if you actually looked at my initial post, i really wanna just talk about high and top tier....for this reason EXACTLY

comment.
 

Binx

Smash Master
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You can't do anything with Falco vs my friends Marth, he powershields while running at you like 95% of the time and then your stunned and he grabs you once and then you basically die. So when I play falco vs him I have to mindgame lasers lol, I have to even choose if its worth the risk to shoot them off at all lols, prolly why I play fox instead.
 

Brainjack

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
279
got any vids?

.....lol not that i dont believe you or anything i'm just really interested in seeing this.
 

IrArby

Smash Ace
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Messages
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Portsmouth VA
Technically speaking if you are Falcon or Fox vs. a Marth you spend most of your time trying to make Marth whiff an attack. That is really the simplest mindgame but any not dumb Marth knows you're trying to do this but has to do something so that if you do do (ha ha) something he isn't completely ****ed right?
Fox and Falco have the more accesible and less escapable combos followed by Shiek and Falcon more or less. I'm pretty sure Marth has the least except maybe Peach in that area of the tier list of highly reliable combos. He also has a predictable recovery (then again all those chars do sorta except Peach). For those reasons and the reasons I listed earlier about having to approach (since Marth can't throw the sword) I'd say he needs the most. I'm partial as a Marth main though.

Falcon also needs alot but I'd agrue his tech chasing is as much reaction as it is prediction at the top levels of play.
 

Brainjack

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
279
hm....i agree marth needs more than spacies....not sure more than falcon though....what are these "less escapable" combos you speak of lol, seems to me that falcon combos are **** hard and require sweet mindgames....


btw, im also a marth main...
 

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
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Corneria, Lylat System
Falcon has no priority...and thus its ***** hard to get grabs/attacks in on people with either priority or range (i.e: Marth/Sheik/Fox)

I think playing Falcon at high level requires a huge mental game. The prediction, tech-chasing, d.i. following...and the ability to weave around hitboxes and priority and do **** stuff. Its really hard to **** with Falcon. vs other good people.
 

Ðesh•

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
52
marth doesnt require any mental game of any sort ever
just press ****ing buttons and you some how win.
its just how it works.
you press buttons, and things protect you
you press butons, and you win.

you'll all have to come to a realization of how gay marth is eventually . -_-
this wasnt a complete joke, but it was a joke
 

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
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Messages
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Corneria, Lylat System
marth doesnt require any mental game of any sort ever
just press ****ing buttons and you some how win.
its just how it works.
you press buttons, and things protect you
you press butons, and you win.

you'll all have to come to a realization of how gay marth is eventually . -_-
this wasnt a complete joke, but it was a joke
Wtf are you talking about?

Its ****loads easier to beat a Marth that presses buttons randomly because he's so laggy compared to all the other broken characters.

Namely, SHEEEEEIK. You press any button in succession while in close proximity to your opponent and it registers as a combo.

Fox and Falco have a really high learning curve...but once you PRACTICE pressing buttons fast and are good at pressing buttons in general all you have to do is press those buttons to win.

Just look at Silent Wolf. -_-
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
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Nov 18, 2007
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17,679
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Spiral Mountain
If we're just doing high + top I'll go with IC or Falcon (operating under IrArby's definition).

Falcon has priority issues and dies really easily. He sucks when he's in shield and his ground game on the whole aside from moving really fast with DDing is limited. His combos might be more reaction-based than prediction, but getting inside someone with his terrible priority is difficult.

ICs don't die as easily but they're reliant on Nana being alive (which is bad), and synched, and sometimes desynched, and their aerials blow, and their range is actually pretty bad, and their priority is so-so. Then when you're stuck with a single IC oh boy >___>
 
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