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Monado Kirby... hmm...

Phoenix502

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on the whole "monado speed useless" complaint thread, ryuu seika mentioned that apparently Kirby doesn't seem faster in the air using Monado Speed.. i did a little fiddling around, and since arts affect kirby's Final Smash much like it does Shulk's. i got to wondering...

how much of a problem would Kirby's copy ability be should he manage to copy Shulk?

as a disclaimer, I'm pretty sure it's likely called "Shulk Kirby", but I call him Monado Kirby because that's all you see on him upon copying, no hair, and a mini Monado on the little marshmallow
 
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Masonomace

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It would vary, I'd have to see Kirby effectively played with the MArts, & because Kirby can't absorb Custom Neutral Specials, they're just regular MArts.

In terms of off-stage edge-guarding, Jump Kirby or Speed Kirby seems very hazardous against Shulk regardless having Jump or Speed active.
 
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Kirby is deadly as ****

but it's important to take note that our range is still vastly superior to Kirby's so that's basically what you'll be forced to capitalize on against him even if he's got the monado
 
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Well, since we all suck against Kirby, just seek out this guy for help @ChronoPenguin
ChronoPenguin said:
Why should Kirby be fine with shulk. If you miss inhale you die. Shulk has 2x if not 2.5x more range. Even if you land inhale you are too light for 3/5 arts. Speed nerfs your damage. Kirby can rack up percent if he is allowed in but he'll be spaced out half the time and still has to respect Vision puttinf extra emphasis on his to grab which has little follow up. Sure he is a threat off-stage but shulk, marth, pit are going to be pain in general.
Help each other as a community :D

Also, I'm never aiming f-smash forward against Kirby ever
 
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Claxus

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I play Kirby every now and then... Copying Shulk was so much fun. For the one match I ever got to do so, outside of lousy gimmick matches in single player. It felt strangely right. Playing one of my sub-mains with Monado Arts was second nature and felt really cool. I gave him more of a whirl in training mode though.

Kirby definitely has his share of advantages and disadvantages... Jump Kirby is lolz, and turns him into even more of a chasing machine, and his aerial game becomes even better than it already is. But it's pretty much off limits around 80%+ because it makes him hilariously easy to KO. Still, the mobility on top of his mobility can be very hard to deal with, but Kirby needs to avoid damage even more than Shulk.
- So Shulk should focus on outranging him to rack up his damage. Maybe you can counter this with Buster to make them terrified of the damage to come if they slip up.

Speed makes his average ground approach much more threatening, grabs especially. He already has a pretty great grab without the speed. Like Shulk, his shorthop attacks also become better vs. ground. Since Kirby is a multi-hit character and already fairly weak, Speed doesn't hinder him that much, and actually helps his offensive earlier on due to the lower knockback. But holy crap, Kirby's fast with this art. A bit faster than Sonic, I want to say. The downside seems to be very small.
- Maybe Shield? It'd seriously diminish his damage to near-nothing, where even multi-hits won't do much. But maybe bad early on where it can lead Kirby to comboing you. Or Jump to play it defensive and time it out.

Shield... Is what you'd think. I think Kirby finds this more useful than Shulk. He's not as slow as Shulk, and Kirby delights in the survivability, being one of the lighter characters.
- Grabbing and spacing should easily deal with it. Maybe Buster since it's actually very easy to zone him offensively in this state.

Buster is... As mentioned; evil. Mostly for U-tilt early on, it easily racks up to 50%. Problem is how he can start it from D-air, too. The majority of Kirby's attacks aren't too changed in terms of damage, but geez, he may very well be the best 'combo' character in the game. His aerials lead to some nasty landing lag for the opponent, or knockback that's very easy to follow-up very fast. Not to mention the overall damage from aerials.
- Thankfully, Shulk's Vision will be able to break out of anything not airtight. Going Smash may help a bit from that monstrous U-tilt. But mainly you better space this guy out for reals.

Smash Kirby... Is what happens when a character with a great, fast KO attacks... Gets Smash. D-smash and U-Smash will kill around 115% anywhere. Probably more dangerous is F-smash, which while slightly weaker, is insanely fast. His D-air also becomes quite a hefty spike. And down-B will kill early, too... U-throw can also KO later. B-air is instant and dangerous. His hammer is also a kill option. F-air can also kill off-stage later... And sometimes Kirby can combo his smash attacks from D-air. Oh boy.
- Jump, Speed, Shield. Pick a god and pray.
 
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Nammy12

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How about a Kirby and Shulk tag team since Kirby can swallow Shulk as a teammate if friendly fire is on.
 

Claxus

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My thoughts exactly. It's like the ultimate versatile team. Shulk has the range, and Kirby the more aggressive potential. With Smash, Kirby can seriously secure some of those kills Shulk has trouble with. Both have some great edgeguarding, too. With Monado Arts on both of them, they both do whatever they need.

I wonder, Shulk's Vision pierces shields... But does it go through Kirby's down-B? If not, with two players in sync, Shulk's vision could be a scary offensive tool while covering Kirby's down-B. If both are in Smash... Oh well, it actually does break through. But here's another idea. Kirby's up-throw is relatively safe in a 2vs2 setting, and since it's so telegraphed, it'd be easy for Shulk nearby to throw out a backslash as Kirby lands and the opponent goes flying.

--- Wait, hold on, Vision doesn't break through Kirby's down-B! I may have subconsciously canceled the rock form since I was spamming it on an AI Shulk praying he'd use Vision. Ultimate tag team confirmed.
 
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how much of a problem would Kirby's copy ability be should he manage to copy Shulk?
I always fear fighting Kirby when I play as Shulk. Once he copies Shulk, he becomes a bit more difficult to defeat with the Monado Arts. I've admittedly have a difficult time fighting Kirby as Shulk and I kinda panic when he does copy him.
Kirby has some powerful attacks, which is great for Smash. He has some multi-hit combo moves, which is great for Buster. Speed will give Kirby more mobility on the ground, making him more difficult to predict. Jump is probably the scariest Monado Art to me due to Kirby's multiple jumps and good aerials; his recovery is greatly aided, he has a lot of free movement in the air, and he can really have a safe time gimping you with Jump.

I'll have to think of strategies to safely approach Kirby and prevent getting Inhaled. Once he copies Shulk, he's a lot more difficult to beat.
 

Phoenix502

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Smash Kirby[...]- Jump, Speed, Shield. Pick a god and pray.
hmm, Jump doesn't sound wise, due to less weight, Shield has trouble recovering... Speed could maintain some distance with some care.

it's worth pointing out that while Kirby has increased knockback for him, it also works against him as well, if I were Monado Kirby, I would only use Smash if I was certain any tilt attack can finish off the enemy (Shulk's Ftilt KOs at around 130% or so pretty reliably).

there's also considering Vision, if you're on the ground and you see it coming, a Forward Vision has more knockback, so a lightweight like Kirby plus the drawbacks of Monado Smash makes him the epitome of the term "Glass Cannon", way I see it.

until i can really test this, though, this is mainly conjecture based on what i know
 

Zephil

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Actually Jump doesn't affect weight, instead it affects the damage you receive so if a move did 10% now with Jump it will hurt you >10% but the knockback is still the same.
 

Claxus

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The thing about Kirby and using Smash against him is that he definitely has some scary speed in his attacks that could get you killed with one wrong move, and one misread Vision will be the end of you. I think Kirby is really just much better at the offensive. And since Kirby was balanced without Smash in mind, he becomes pretty fearsome with lightning fast kill moves.

As for the arts I suggested to deal with it, Jump has the best keepaway in the game IMO. I don't think any character can really keep up with Shulk jumping and fast falling around. Shield recovery doesn't matter much since you can cancel the art. You can focus on zoning, and if you get hit, it sort of cancels out Kirby's Smash buff. Speed is an alternative to stalling/zoning.

Actually Jump doesn't affect weight, instead it affects the damage you receive so if a move did 10% now with Jump it will hurt you >10% but the knockback is still the same.
Are you sure about this? Where did you find out? If it's true that his weight isn't changed, it's some pretty big misinformation that has been going around... But if a move does more damage, technically the knockback is greater, too, as knockback is partly calculated with damage.
 
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Zephil

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I am pretty sure I red that in one of the topics in this forum but to be honest I havent tried it myself so I might be wrong but thats what I understood was the difference between smash and buster/jump "defense" reduction.
 

Masonomace

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Frankly the best MArts for Kirby imo are Speed Shield & Buster.

We don't know Kirby's weight when he copies the MArts & uses them, but let's imply that the MArt's affected weight changes are the same for Kirby as they are for Shulk:

Kirby's weight = 77
Shield mode's weight increase = +44 = :4kirby:'s almost as heavy as :4dk: by one point!!!
Smash mode's weight decrease = -12.5 = :4kirby:'s lighter than :4jigglypuff:. . .

If we take Aero's table of MArt data into this, then Jump & Buster reduce weight as well, however Jump is not my concerned point because Kirby doesn't really need this MArt that much (unless you're getting Meteor smashed a lot as Kirby then definitely). Both Speed & Shield reduces jump height, but that matters little when Kirby already has in-total 6 jumps (5 if you're only counting his airborne jumps) & an Up-B recovery move to boot. Speed & Jump increase air speed, but Speed fairs greater for Kirby than Jump since Kirby's weight decreases, while Speed doesn't affect weight. Buster is just a small mention here for the weight reduction being a risk, but Monado Buster Kirby U-tilts are just godlike to the max.
 
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Claxus

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I like Jump with Kirby because it lets him get really tricky with his already awesome aerials. Falling really fast with his D-air from a good height in a flash, which is a combo starter from him, and with good air control, can be difficult to punish. But overall, Kirby doesn't need it much.

Though, come to think of it, I wonder how much further Kirby's D-air can spike off stage with Jump, fast falling with it. And I think Kirbycide would be better, too.
 

Masonomace

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@ Claxus Claxus Jump Kirby's D-air drillcides!

Kirby can't Kirbycide if the MArts are active though (if inhalecide is what you really meant by Kirbycide that is)
 

Claxus

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@ Claxus Claxus Jump Kirby's D-air drillcides!

Kirby can't Kirbycide if the MArts are active though (if inhalecide is what you really meant by Kirbycide that is)
Oh, I derped pretty bad there in my thought process. Was just thinking of Kirby falling with more gravity. Not like Kirbycide needs a buff, anyway.

D-air though, it really would be more lethal off stage. Some characters can make it back on stage after hit by it, but if Jump Kirby fell even faster with the drill kick, he'd carry the opponent down deeper, and could likely finish with a footstool.
 
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Smash Kirby feels really double edge'd. Although your KO power is ridiculous, your weight is 64.5

That's ever lighter than Hyper Smash Shulk
 

Masonomace

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Kirbycide falling like a brick, I imagined that lolsly moment. Drill D-air would be dope with the footstool finisher to the max. Smash Kirby vs Shulk seems like a lose-lose situation considering the Monado's range, & Kirby's not-so-good-range versus that.

And about something interesting in regards to Kirby using Stone (Down-B) against us at any moment:
If Kirby copied our MArts & had Buster on while using Stone, then we have a huge advantage against that stone if we Vision counter it. Buster makes the user take 1.2x more additional damage right? So that would hopefully mean that our Vision would already deal additional damage on top of our own 1.3x damage multiplier when countering Monado Buster Kirby's Stone, which deals 18% on impact. Haha. . .Forward Vision sounds disgusting for Kirby. .:shades:.

Note: When Kirby is hit with a move that deals 30% or more, then the full knockback will apply knocking Kirby out of the Stone form, but will not receive the damage. (if this didn't change from Brawl that is)
 
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Claxus

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Kirbycide falling like a brick, I imagined that lolsly moment. Drill D-air would be dope with the footstool finisher to the max. Smash Kirby vs Shulk seems like a lose-lose situation considering the Monado's range, & Kirby's not-so-good-range versus that.

And about something interesting in regards to Kirby using Stone (Down-B) against us at any moment:
If Kirby copied our MArts & had Buster on while using Stone, then we have a huge advantage against that stone if we Vision counter it. Buster makes the user take 1.2x more additional damage right? So that would hopefully mean that our Vision would already deal additional damage on top of our own 1.3x damage multiplier when countering Monado Buster Kirby's Stone, which deals 18% on impact. Haha. . .Forward Vision sounds disgusting for Kirby. .:shades:.

Note: When Kirby is hit with a move that deals 30% or more, then the full knockback will apply knocking Kirby out of the Stone form, but will not receive the damage. (if this didn't change from Brawl that is)
Just tested it, looks like that Stone threshold is in fact still there, which explains why I originally thought Vision broke through Stone, and then thought it didn't. Didn't even know that 30% rule. Buster Kirby/Shulk will make the Vision break through.

Kirby's aerials seem to revert his air speed during their animations... So D-air is the same after all. However, it may still be able to net more footstools after it, since Kirby could fastfall immediately afterwards super fast.

I can't vouch for how useful Jump practically is for KIrby, but it's truly amazing how much air control he has.

EDIT: Extra stuff. Seems like the threshold is additive. Shulk's Buster D-smash broke through stone on the second back hit, I believe (both hit). Also, Kirby does take damage from it. Buster Kirby got Stone Vision'd, and took 18% while flying off.

Buster Kirby's Stone deals 22%, 18% is without it. Neutral Vision doesn't break it if neither of them are using Buster. Can't really get the AI to do the f-Vision to try that one though.
 
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Masonomace

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Just tested it, looks like that Stone threshold is in fact still there, which explains why I originally thought Vision broke through Stone, and then thought it didn't. Didn't even know that 30% rule. Buster Kirby/Shulk will make the Vision break through.

Kirby's aerials seem to revert his air speed during their animations... So D-air is the same after all. However, it may still be able to net more footstools after it, since Kirby could fastfall immediately afterwards super fast.

I can't vouch for how useful Jump practically is for KIrby, but it's truly amazing how much air control he has.

EDIT: Extra stuff. Seems like the threshold is additive. Shulk's Buster D-smash broke through stone on the second back hit, I believe (both hit). Also, Kirby does take damage from it. Buster Kirby got Stone Vision'd, and took 18% while flying off.

Buster Kirby's Stone deals 22%, 18% is without it. Neutral Vision doesn't break it if neither of them are using Buster. Can't really get the AI to do the f-Vision to try that one though.
All of that is very educational. I initially thought that it was one-hit-only & not additive. And because Kirby now takes damage & knockback from his Stone being broken, this changes a lot of things.

Now I'm terrified of a Shield mode Stone Kirby. . . All we can do is hopefully get in & grab him before he de-activates Stone.:ohwell:
 

kenniky

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Can Kirby taunt out the Copy Ability but still keep the Art he has on him currently? That'd allow for some scary Kirbycide...
 

Masonomace

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Can Kirby taunt out the Copy Ability but still keep the Art he has on him currently? That'd allow for some scary Kirbycide...
I wouldn't think so. Any Hat Kirby's wearing instantly goes away the moment he taunts. It's like the MArts for example: You can't carry-over the effects of your current MArt to the next one you activate, (aka you can't jump really high with Jump's boost if you have Speed active)
 
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N7Kopper

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Can Kirby taunt out the Copy Ability but still keep the Art he has on him currently? That'd allow for some scary Kirbycide...
Well, it's the Monado's power - if you destroy your Monado, you lose the power.

(How scary is Kirby anyway if he can casually create and destroy Monados on a whim? Jesus.)
 

Masonomace

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IIRC, once Kirby uses a MArt stance & it goes on cooldown, Kirby's Monado hat disappears. I don't own the game so.
 

Phoenix502

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actually, the Monado hat doesn't vanish, it just goes on cooldown like normal.

Given that Robin's hat vanishes when the Thunder Tome is used up, though, I can understand where you're coming from on that


Well, it's the Monado's power - if you destroy your Monado, you lose the power.

(How scary is Kirby anyway if he can casually create and destroy Monados on a whim? Jesus.)
or, if you want a sillier perspective, Kirby's just that good at making knockoff products! Just make some disclaimers, and he could form a market on copied Monados... assuming he's not required to gulp shulk for every one, which... kinda skews the comedy a bit.
 
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Masonomace

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actually, the Monado hat doesn't vanish, it just goes on cooldown like normal.

Given that Robin's hat vanishes when the Thunder Tome is used up, though, I can understand where you're coming from on that




or, if you want a sillier perspective, Kirby's just that good at making knockoff products! Just make some disclaimers, and he could form a market on copied Monados... assuming he's not required to gulp shulk for every one, which... kinda skews the comedy a bit.
Thanks for clarifying this. The comedy is decently appropriate so there's that.:shades:
 

breadstick24

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I main Kirby, my brother mains Shulk, this is a matchup I'm very familiar with. (doubles is also the most fun imaginable). As mentioned the up-tilt plus buster is, quite frankly, a little unfair. you basically get an automatic 50% minimum. After that Shulk can vision but if that vision gets read... that's a forward throw followed by Up-air or fair or whatever kirby's in the mood for. With that said, jump kirby is amazing. the mobility is awesome and if you pop shulk up into the air the you can chase HARD. The upside shulk has is his outrageous range. there isn't any particular monado that shulk can use that really can protect him besides smash. because smash shulk can KO kirby easily with tilts.
 
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