Movement

[Angell]

So If you have been on the Zelda boards anytime after 3.5 dropped (which you probably have) you would know that there was mass outrage about her current build. Zelda was a high-mid-tier in 3.0.2 and now she is low-mid to low. While you can win with every character, you have to outplay your opponent a lot to win as Zelda. Making reads and playing defensive. Well... kind of. There are like 7 or 8 threads on the Zelda boards about fixing or improving her current design. But something that is never discussed within these threads is her movement speed and other movement options.
For a defensive character she has an absurdly short wavedash, her dash dance is too short and she is very venerable to dd camping, and her slow dash speed means she is too slow to cover reads. There have been times when I have had a perfect read on a roll away, but because Zelda is so slow I cant even punish my opponent. I think making an effort to kind of address these kinds of things would make Zelda mains feel less robbed. I think these are even changes that would get past Zelda Johners. It would raise her skill cap and she would feel "more like melee"
Thoughts?

 

[4tlas]

So If you have been on the Zelda boards anytime after 3.5 dropped (which you probably have) you would know that there was mass outrage about her current build. Zelda was a high-mid-tier in 3.0.2 and now she is low-mid to low. While you can win with every character, you have to outplay your opponent a lot to win as Zelda. Making reads and playing defensive. Well... kind of. There are like 7 or 8 threads on the Zelda boards about fixing or improving her current design. But something that is never discussed within these threads is her movement speed and other movement options.
For a defensive character she has an absurdly short wavedash, her dash dance is too short and she is very venerable to dd camping, and her slow dash speed means she is too slow to cover reads. There have been times when I have had a perfect read on a roll away, but because Zelda is so slow I cant even punish my opponent. I think making an effort to kind of address these kinds of things would make Zelda mains feel less robbed. I think these are even changes that would get past Zelda Johners. It would raise her skill cap and she would feel "more like melee"
Thoughts?

I agree with many things and disagree with many things. I will start out by saying that I would prefer buffs in other areas, and I'll explain why later.

1) I don't think Zelda was high-mid in 3.02, I think that was mostly scrub salt. But this is irrelevant.
2) There is discussion about improving her generic speed options. I don't remember where so I can't link it, sorry. =/
3) I like her slow because that allows her to have power elsewhere. My read-based playstyle works well because of the strengths she has, which she is only allowed to have because of her abysmal speed.
4) I would personally not use an improved wavedash or dashdance, so I would prefer buffs (or at least no nerfs) in other areas as opposed to improved movement.
5) I think homogenizing her movement may improve her as a character, but homogenization makes me sad.
6) I don't think it would raise her skill cap. I don't know what it would do. But it would certainly shift where her skill is coming from. I like having to read things because Zelda is too slow to do things on reaction.
7) I agree that most people would probably not complain about this at first, so it could happen. But then everyone will complain about the "slower floatier Captain Falcon with 2 knees, a projectile, and a good recovery) even more, because she will be faster like him.

 

[Downdraft]

@ 4tlas : Do you forget that a significant factor in her reduced movement options and viability (regardless of where one thought she stood on the tier list) were the removal of aerial intangibility of Nayru's, Love Jumping, Diamond Diving, and teledashing? She had her own special movement options, and they were all nerfed or removed without adequate compensation. 3.5 Zelda was already a step towards homogenization. No character has the ability to control the stage like 3.02 Din's. No one has swift, powerful sweetspots like the critical heels. ROB is the only character I know of with a momentum altering special attack that can allow him to escape combos, but it's not invincible and to my knowledge doesn't have hitboxes. I don't know of a special attack with as much utility as 3.02 Nayru's Love.

 

[ted dorosheff]

This is slightly off topic, yet kind of relevant, but what would happen if you took the character files for zelda for 3.5 PM and just overwrote them with 3.02 zelda files? Is that even possible?

 

[Downdraft]

This is slightly off topic, yet kind of relevant, but what would happen if you took the character files for zelda for 3.5 PM and just overwrote them with 3.02 zelda files? Is that even possible?

@ otheusrex may know. That is a very interesting question. If it's that simple, I'd do such as an alternate build.

 

[otheusrex]

Most of it would be ok, the game wouldn't crash or anything, but Dins fire has some verticle momentum code in the actual gtc file, apprantly that without the 3.5 pac file codes makes her float upwards during dins fire in the air.

 

[Downdraft]

Most of it would be ok, the game wouldn't crash or anything, but Dins fire has some verticle momentum code in the actual gtc file, apprantly that without the 3.5 pac file codes makes her float upwards during dins fire in the air.

The game not crashing is good enough for me. Din's mostly working fine is alright too.
I'm going to test this out. 3.5 Zelda gets old.

 

[justanull]

When Project Meme was first being tested, we tried out 3.02 Zelda.

You have 3 Dins, they preserve vertical momentum on startup, and when they are clanked they don't go away or return, they just stay there. Teledashing is back over cancelling, no other unexpected/nonobvious things I saw.

 

[4tlas]

@ 4tlas : Do you forget that a significant factor in her reduced movement options and viability (regardless of where one thought she stood on the tier list) were the removal of aerial intangibility of Nayru's, Love Jumping, Diamond Diving, and teledashing? She had her own special movement options, and they were all nerfed or removed without adequate compensation. 3.5 Zelda was already a step towards homogenization. No character has the ability to control the stage like 3.02 Din's. No one has swift, powerful sweetspots like the critical heels. ROB is the only character I know of with a momentum altering special attack that can allow him to escape combos, but it's not invincible and to my knowledge doesn't have hitboxes. I don't know of a special attack with as much utility as 3.02 Nayru's Love.

I don't forget. I disliked all the homogenization in 3.5. However, I didn't use those techs and much prefer the teleshort over the teledash. I constantly talk about critical heels and multiple Dins, and I have talked about how removing aerial Nayru's intangibility is sad but ultimately I can live with.

She was given slightly better base movement in 3.5 I believe, and I don't care about it at all. This is consistent with my post =)

 

[otheusrex]

what is project meme exactly?

 

[4tlas]

Project M Minus, essentially.

 

[Angell]

I agree with many things and disagree with many things. I will start out by saying that I would prefer buffs in other areas, and I'll explain why later.

1) I don't think Zelda was high-mid in 3.02, I think that was mostly scrub salt. But this is irrelevant.
2) There is discussion about improving her generic speed options. I don't remember where so I can't link it, sorry. =/
3) I like her slow because that allows her to have power elsewhere. My read-based playstyle works well because of the strengths she has, which she is only allowed to have because of her abysmal speed.
4) I would personally not use an improved wavedash or dashdance, so I would prefer buffs (or at least no nerfs) in other areas as opposed to improved movement.
5) I think homogenizing her movement may improve her as a character, but homogenization makes me sad.
6) I don't think it would raise her skill cap. I don't know what it would do. But it would certainly shift where her skill is coming from. I like having to read things because Zelda is too slow to do things on reaction.
7) I agree that most people would probably not complain about this at first, so it could happen. But then everyone will complain about the "slower floatier Captain Falcon with 2 knees, a projectile, and a good recovery) even more, because she will be faster like him.

I'd like to post a reply after all this time b/c I think you are right on most points
1.Yep
2. missed that lol mb
3. yeah
4. I disagree, her biggest current flaw is her horrid movement. buffing her in these areas would be a buff only to higher skill players, which are the kind of changes I love because I consider myself to have very good tech skill.
5. I guess I agree
6. yes and no. Should reads be the main thing, imo yes. But, if your opponent decides to roll away, you cant cover that roll, even with a read. That is what this thread was planned to be about. She's currently not fast enough to capitalize on reads on rolls away and IT P***ES ME THE H**L OFF! (sorry, anger not directed at you)
7. yeah

Idk I just thought the best way to improve her was through movement.

 

[BlackMamba]

I COMPLETELY understand your complaint about her movement, I've had the issue with reading someone's tech option and having no way to punish it and yes, it is indeed frustrating. I'd be happy with a slightly longer wavedash rather than increased run speed (though either would be nice). Can you imagine how much everyone would whine if they made her faster? lol the more subtle the "buff", the better for us. Btw, I generally use Farore's for tech chasing if I read a roll. It works relatively well, though its less dependable than her just being faster or having a longer WD would be.

 

[4tlas]

New dins punishes read techs/rolls very well. I often get either a lightning kick or a grab off of them. Alternatively, start a teleport and follow them with it.

I do just fine with her movement as is. A buff to it would be a buff, it just wouldn't be one I'd notice.