Data Mr Frame&Data- Frame Data information + KO%

[lllp3lll]

Thanks Neb, I'll clean up the op soonish.

0-70% on diddy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycVDZn7KO7A
Upsmash>ftilt>dash grab>pummelx2>dthrow>uptiltx3>upb

Upsmash>ftilt is legit dash grab is a mixup can be replaced with dash atk. Dthrow>uptiltx1 is legit the other uptilts can be avoided so be ready to chase with nair if they try.

 

[Neb]

Can this be performed out of a grab at 0? Having something like this on Diddy certainly develops the matchup.

 

[SFA Smiley]

I'll sticky this once the OP is cleaned up. I don't want to yet because i don't want new users to be confused about the goal of this thread.

Thanks for the hard work though, I actually have been labbing it up myself and already have incorporating some of your discoveries into my gameplay with much success

 

[lllp3lll]

Can this be performed out of a grab at 0? Having something like this on Diddy certainly develops the matchup.

With a 0% grab on diddy you can get

Upthrow>UpB>Strong Fair...

At this point you have the following options:

Double jump > Nair > UpB - for around 40%

or

Fast Fall > Landing trap UpSmash OOS > Nair > UpB - for around 63%

You can also do a landing Uair after the Fair which will raise Diddy via its windbox for addition aerial pressure.

 

[TheMiSP]

Idk if really productive or even true, but I think it's possible to do sweetspot Trampoline Launch > falling or fast-falling uair (second hit only). Only when they pretty much launch a bit below you after ascension. Somewhere in that range.

Got my friend's Lucario up to the vertical magnifying glass doing this.

Also, anyone else feel that both custom up specials can be used as a great OOS option/anti-grab/shield pressure (heavy trampoline)?

And yeah, you get to nair/any air attack with direction input by inputting L or its equivalent after the ascension of these up specials.

 

[lllp3lll]

I don't have all gw's customs but is there a up special with fire's height without the windbox? Because off stage:
Soft fair > Dair
Is a thing but fire usally saves them from the spike

 

[BlakDragon]

@ lllp3lll His Up-3, Trampoline Launch, lacks a wind box (and the parachute of course) and gains more height than Fire.

The hitbox attached to him comes out a bit later than the other Up-B attacks, so the victim might get popped up during recovery anyway.

 

[Neb]

Something that could vastly benefit our counterpick is knowing kill % for dthrow> uair on various platforms.

 

[lllp3lll]

Something that could vastly benefit our counterpick is knowing kill % for dthrow> uair on various platforms.

Mario dies @ 80% top of battlefield
Luigi @ 75%

Dthrow > uair @ ground level usally stops working at %s that uair would kill.

So on platforms it seems we have a kill setup. I'll test the cast on top bf when I get the chance.

 

[Neb]

Thank you. Testing the extremes (ie jiggs, mario, bowser) ought to suffice, and save you some time. Other platform maps, or stages with low ceilings are also worth researching. This is practically gold. Having a guaranteed KO option at 80% demands presidential respect.

 

[Kofu]

Thanks Neb, I'll clean up the op soonish.

0-70% on diddy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycVDZn7KO7A
Upsmash>ftilt>dash grab>pummelx2>dthrow>uptiltx3>upb

Upsmash>ftilt is legit dash grab is a mixup can be replaced with dash atk. Dthrow>uptiltx1 is legit the other uptilts can be avoided so be ready to chase with nair if they try.

This needs to be tested on a human opponent since CPUs do not have especially good DI. Still, interesting string, something I ought to work at adding to my game.

 

[Neb]

I just can't resonate with the popular opinion of this character. People are literally placing him at the bottom of their tier list e_e

 

[X3I]

To me, it's a solid mid+... We have very strong tools, seriously
- An invincible Usmash, the only move we can use as a Shoryuken in this game... It destroys A LOT OF mix-ups. Best move ! <3
- The best UpB of the game, that comes with the best edgeguarding game (we should focus on that too).
- A godlike Dthrow that allows sweet combos whatever the %... Fastest grab/nice range, also.
- Disjointed hitboxes, we're unbeatable in air-to-air...
- ...and on the ground too, our Ftilt and our Dash Attack are awesome.
- The fearful Judge 9 that can steal a stock, now easily do-able in combo.
- Bucket, so we don't have much problem against projectiles.

I think people just fought against bad ones who approached with Fair/Bair in the shield and got punished easily.
G&W HAS strengths. Maybe sometimes you can struggle to have a kill... But once you know some Usmash setups, it's okay.

Though, I like to laugh with my friend on that. Each time a broken thing happens, I'm like :
"Well... I play a low tier, guys :3", and they say "Well, shut up, it's definitely not one !".

 

[SFA Smiley]

People do not understand that GW isn't the greatest but he isn't garbage tier.

He's not THAT bad.

But he does have pretty weak neutral, and is light as ****.

I'm working on a video though that will likely change people's opinions. People are just ignorant of what the character is capable of.

I'll definitely give you props X3l for recognizing how good Usmash was, though, I definitely thought you were crazy at first but that move does work

 

[X3I]

Finally some acknowledgement *-*

I think the two main things a G&W's player has to learn, are : how to approach and Usmash mindgames.
The edgeguarding part comes more from experiences. It will improve by itself.
But approaching without hitting shields in close range is VERY important.

 

[pepi1197]

Approaching is the most difficult thing for me as G&W. I rarely go to the air anymore and opt for a dash attack that stops short and goes into ftilt but I still struggle with it.

 

[Neb]

Mid to bottom High is an educated placement in my opinion. Perhaps not presently, but down the road when we become more scientific with his grab game. Dthrow, uair, and usmash have a high potential.

Dthrow being the biggest learning curve for G&W. You have general tools guaranteed on the entire cast, which is already more than we could say in Brawl. But they pale in comparison to the options G&W has when exploiting the individual mechanics of a character in order to rack 40+%.

Having a f4 invincible smash attack, it is not logical to go on struggling for the KO. That obstacle will fizzle out as we better understand each matchup.

Together, grab punishes and usmash counterbalance his lightweight and create momentous cqc options by quickly racking damage, and bullying for early knockouts. Also note how each of these tools are difficult to restrain.

On this thought, G&W is a character that can be played in several differing styles - which is not the makings of a low tier. However, unlike Brawl, he is not so easy to pickup.

 

[TheMiSP]

Besides empty hops back and forth and quickly foxtrotting the other way, is there another way to "test the waters" without fear of punishment? I think I should be walking > ftilt more. It hurts to dash attack at a shield, it lets the opponent grab.

Some things I found. Maybe you can protect yourself from punishment on a landing fair by immediately dtilting afterwards (is ftilt better for this?) because I've seen opponents drop their shield after the fair hit, letting me dtilt them and run away.

Also, if they grab the ledge, running off > rising bair into them would cover getup, getup attack, and getup roll I believe. Don't know any other options for this situation.

How do you use dair appropriately? How about in the dreadful scenario where you just daired and are about to eat landing lag? Where should you land? What to do when you're going to eat the lag of landing with bair?

Is there a such thing as mastering the art of landing with uair? I want to know.

 

[SFA Smiley]

Fair>Ftilt

Only dair as a reaction punish

Landing with uair is great

 

[Neb]

Fair>usmash if they're too close since ftilt must be spaced on shield. Jab is also good. But don't land with fair if you can help it.

 

[jsqrc]

When would it be applicable to use dtilt when ftilt is an option? (Not including scenarios with the "table flipping" tech or abusing the windbox.) Maybe it's my ignorance, but I feel that the extra 4 frames is worth the increase in damage % and knockback. Hopefully with the developing metagame I will soon see G&W at around high mid-tier as opposed to absolute garbage tier as considered by the other boards =)

 

[lllp3lll]

Erm. So guys erm here's now to tech chase.

These are all based on mario, and show the minimum % that the move will cause them to hit the ground for a tech. If they miss the tech that's a free:
Dash attack
Fair
Full Bucket

Or

If they tech you dash grab them

Mario

Dash atk 0%-

Fsmash- 2%

F-tilt 22%

Fair- 32%

Dair (ground hit) 54%

Dtilt- 66%

Chef (Aerial pan) 94%

Rough Video:

https://youtu.be/9IutwLOq4fw

 

[BBC7]

I've some really valuable data, guys. Guaranteed D-Throw to U-Air Kills on FD/Omega on every character. You read that right, trust me. I'm adding some "commentary" as well

= 94%-115% (22 percents, better nerf greninja haha original and hilarious)
= 122%-143% (22 percents)
= 102%-122% (21 percents)
= 87%-106% (20 percents)
= 90%-109% (20 percents)
= 97%-116% (20 percents)
= 95%-112% (18 percents)
= 95%-111% (17 percents)
= 77%-92% (16 percents)
= 92%-107% (16 percents)
= 108%-123% (16 percents)
= 85%-99% (15 percents)
= 91%-105% (15 percents)
= 96%-110% (15 percents)
= 96%-110% (15 percents)
= 106%-120% (15 percents)
= 92%-105% (14 percents)
= 101%-114% (14 percents)
= 106%-119% (14 percents)
= 89%-100% (12 percents)
= 95%-106% (12 percents)
= 96%-107% (12 percents)
= 96%-107% (12 percents)
= 99%-110% (12 percents)
= 100%-108% (9 percents)
= 102%-110% (9 percents)
= 82%-89% (8 percents)
= 94%-101% (8 percents)
= 91%-97% (7 percents)
= 94%-100% (7 percents)
= 106%-112% (7 percents)
= 80%-85% (6 percents)
= 90%-95% (6 percents)
= 113%-118% (6 percents)
= 92%-95% (4 percents)
= 111%-114% (4 percents)
= 83%-85% (3 percents)
= 90%-92% (3 percents)
= 95%-97% (3 percents, wtf)
= 105%-107% (3 percents)
= 80%-81% (2 percents)
= 85%-86% (2 percents)
= 88%-89% (2 percents)
= 73% (1 percent)
= 89% (1 percent)
= 109% (1 percent)
= 95% (1 percent, difficult link)
= 98% (1 percent, difficult link)
= 111% (1 percent, difficult link hehehe get it)

I'm missing Mii Fighters because they have a bunch of weird stuff I'd rather not factor in, so someone else can do that if they want. Unless you're at 4 percents or below, you're decently vulnerable.

EDIT: I didn't realize the list would be this big in terms of size, should've stuck with text

 

[Neb]

How exactly did you test this, if I might ask? This is glass cannon voodoo.

Grab (0 - 30-60%) > whatever > grab again (90+%) = KO

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

What about factoring in rage?

 

[BBC7]

What about factoring in rage?

Idk about rage percents, all I know is that these percents stop working with rage. I'd assume that perhaps a kill at 90% drops down to a kill at 85%?

 

[Nose]

Idk about rage percents, all I know is that these percents stop working with rage. I'd assume that perhaps a kill at 90% drops down to a kill at 85%?

Yes, this is true.

I've been figuring this out the past few days (as you have been apparently), and have been applying it wonderfully in FG myself. I'm glad you made an intensive write-up!

At 100% rage, expect to try d-throw to u-air a max of 10% earlier than usual.
Anywhere above or below, add or subtract 5% liberally.

It's extremely fun killing Mewtwo at 85%.

If your opponent DI's to the right, you won't be able to hit them in time with uair most likely due to positioning reasons-- a fair does just as well in that situation.

If they DI to the left, though, you can't reach them without the first gust sending them too far up, because GnW can't ascend that fast vertically. I'd suggest a wait for an airdodge if your opponent hasn't learned to jump as soon as they get the chance, or a simple and clean up-b.

 

[GimR]

can someone explain to me the B-air frame data? I think it's incorrect:

1. Bair
2. Frame 10-13: [2%]x3 100f/40w 25° 1.5-Hitlag Slash
3. Frame 10-13: [2%]x3 30b/40g 366° 1.5-Hitlag Slash
4. Frame 22-22: 3% 30b/170g (KO@ 239%) 361° 2.5-Hitlag Slash
5. Max Damage: 9%
6. Article generated on real frame 1
7. Enables transition to Bair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 10
   
   Can someone explain? Also, regular get ups only have 1 frame to punish and b-air seems to always hit which leads me to believe that it's active in its entirety. Lastly, why doesn't the frame data have cooldown? ROFL

 

[BBC7]

can someone explain to me the B-air frame data? I think it's incorrect:

1. Bair
2. Frame 10-13: [2%]x3 100f/40w 25° 1.5-Hitlag Slash
3. Frame 10-13: [2%]x3 30b/40g 366° 1.5-Hitlag Slash
4. Frame 22-22: 3% 30b/170g (KO@ 239%) 361° 2.5-Hitlag Slash
5. Max Damage: 9%
6. Article generated on real frame 1
7. Enables transition to Bair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 10
   
   Can someone explain? Also, regular get ups only have 1 frame to punish and b-air seems to always hit which leads me to believe that it's active in its entirety. Lastly, why doesn't the frame data have cooldown? ROFL

Doesn't Bair have that one hitbox that only comes out when G&W is grounded? Maybe it lingers long enough to punish regular get ups, that's the only thing I can think of. The data might not be taking it into consideration because max damage is actually 12% if you include the weird ground hitbox.

 

[Nose]

bair has a lingering hitbox property when landed while active,
or it might be a completely separate landing hitbox like falco's fair

 

[ToTs]

Is everyone aware that BAIR cancels all lag if landed before the hitbox comes out? It gives you the animation, but can be cancelled into anything.

Not sure if 89. Is referring to this....

 

[NouveauRétro]

bair has a lingering hitbox property when landed while active,
or it might be a completely separate landing hitbox like falco's fair

It's a landing hitbox. The knockback on landing is completely different from the usual ending hitbox. Which is a shame beacause that makes bair to bair only work air to air.

 

[Nose]

ah, thanks for clarifying

i wonder how big the hitbox is, i know falco's is pretty generous

 

[NotAsian]

Anyone else having trouble with down throw up air? I have this page bookmarked so I look at it as I play but I swear they can air dodge this or something unless I'm not fast enough on the jumps. Any advice on how to land this correctly?

Oo one more thing get anyone ever get an early kill with bair? Ive killed with super early like at 100 at the top of the map. IDK does it have to do with which hit you start on when you land like if you get the ending hits then the ground hitbox they fly farther?

 

[NouveauRétro]

Anyone else having trouble with down throw up air? I have this page bookmarked so I look at it as I play but I swear they can air dodge this or something unless I'm not fast enough on the jumps. Any advice on how to land this correctly?

Oo one more thing get anyone ever get an early kill with bair? Ive killed with super early like at 100 at the top of the map. IDK does it have to do with which hit you start on when you land like if you get the ending hits then the ground hitbox they fly farther?

*Looks 10 posts up*
Well there's your first answer. Isn't there a Q&A? Also, bair shouldn't be killing off the top at 100%, but if you get the grounded finishing hitbox the knock back is higher and more vertical.

 

[NotAsian]

Anyone have up air precents on ryu roy and Lucas?

 

[NotAsian]

OK I don't have the dlc characters but I might be close on these
Roy-103~107 i think
Ryu-105~
Lucas~yet to land it might be harder than ness

 

[steuben]

I've some really valuable data, guys. Guaranteed D-Throw to U-Air Kills on FD/Omega on every character. You read that right, trust me. I'm adding some "commentary" as well

= 94%-115% (22 percents, better nerf greninja haha original and hilarious)
= 122%-143% (22 percents)
= 102%-122% (21 percents)
= 87%-106% (20 percents)
= 90%-109% (20 percents)
= 97%-116% (20 percents)
= 95%-112% (18 percents)
= 95%-111% (17 percents)
= 77%-92% (16 percents)
= 92%-107% (16 percents)
= 108%-123% (16 percents)
= 85%-99% (15 percents)
= 91%-105% (15 percents)
= 96%-110% (15 percents)
= 96%-110% (15 percents)
= 106%-120% (15 percents)
= 92%-105% (14 percents)
= 101%-114% (14 percents)
= 106%-119% (14 percents)
= 89%-100% (12 percents)
= 95%-106% (12 percents)
= 96%-107% (12 percents)
= 96%-107% (12 percents)
= 99%-110% (12 percents)
= 100%-108% (9 percents)
= 102%-110% (9 percents)
= 82%-89% (8 percents)
= 94%-101% (8 percents)
= 91%-97% (7 percents)
= 94%-100% (7 percents)
= 106%-112% (7 percents)
= 80%-85% (6 percents)
= 90%-95% (6 percents)
= 113%-118% (6 percents)
= 92%-95% (4 percents)
= 111%-114% (4 percents)
= 83%-85% (3 percents)
= 90%-92% (3 percents)
= 95%-97% (3 percents, wtf)
= 105%-107% (3 percents)
= 80%-81% (2 percents)
= 85%-86% (2 percents)
= 88%-89% (2 percents)
= 73% (1 percent)
= 89% (1 percent)
= 109% (1 percent)
= 95% (1 percent, difficult link)
= 98% (1 percent, difficult link)
= 111% (1 percent, difficult link hehehe get it)

I'm missing Mii Fighters because they have a bunch of weird stuff I'd rather not factor in, so someone else can do that if they want. Unless you're at 4 percents or below, you're decently vulnerable.

EDIT: I didn't realize the list would be this big in terms of size, should've stuck with text

BBC7! i want to write your holy toot toot scripture down for reference and eventually memorization. do you have any reason to believe that any of these percents changed since 4/20 (ha ha)? going through the patches, d-throw and u-air are untouched, and i don't think they've changed anyone's weight or fall speed.

EDIT: ALSO! what's the timing? haven't had a chance to lab test these. d-throw and then jump twice as fast as possible ending with the u-air?

 

[thisNeko]

Since GW has some troubles killing, i did some research to optimise his kill power.

I focused my research on Upsmash and Dthrow->Uair kill.
The % in BBC7 post are wrong (or patched), and by wrong i mean sometimes you can kill earlyer sometimes you can kill later.


About stages : (training mode Mario)

UPsmash kill%: 100-BF 96-SV 96-FD 95-Omega-BF 91-T&C ~81-Delfino-low-ceiling
Dthrow->Uair kill%: 101-BF 96to112-FD 92-T&C ~82-Delfino-low-ceiling

As you can see, for both killing methods we have the same gap between stages. It might change a few % depending on the character but since it will take a lot time to test it i decided to do it only for Mario. It still give you an idea.
(i tested with Luigi and the gaps are the same)

I realise after testing that Mario die 1% earlyer on Omega-BF than DF. Its really annoying and i am not even sure the ceiling is the cause. but w/e

For the sake of simplicity all the testing will be done on Omega-BF.


About Rage and fresh moove : (Smash mode Mario on Omega-BF)

Upsmash kill %
Training mode Upsmash : 95%
Fresh : 93%
50% rage : 92%
75% rage : 87%
100% rage = 82%
110% rage = 80%
150% rage = 73%

With the Dthrow->Uair 70% rage + fresh i killed Mario at 83%, so it seems the dthrow->Uair kill a bit earlyer with Rage.
Once again it will require a lot of testing to test everything. I'am just trying to give you an idea.

Others things you have to keep in mind :

-Upsmash and reverse Upsmash kill at the same %
-The Uair combo % are perfectible, it just become really hard to time correctly.
-The Uair combo is easyer on fastfaller.
-Against heavys you have to double jump Uair as fast as you can because their hitlag is lower and you have more lag after your Dthrow
-Against floatys you have to jump wait a little bit than jump Uair because they stay in hitstun while falling

Now lets update BBC7 list : (training Omega-BF) (no rage no fresh)


= Uair : 96-112 // Upsmash : 95

= Uair : 90-97 // Upsmash : 92

= Uair : 91-111 // Upsmash : 87

= Uair : 108-130 // Upsmash : 102

= Uair : 90-111 // Upsmash : 86

= Uair : 92-110 // Upsmash : 85

= Uair : 85-101 // Upsmash : 85

= Uair : 102-119 // Upsmash : 99

= Uair : 85-93 // Upsmash : 87

= Uair : 101-122 // Upsmash : 99

= Uair : 101-121 // Upsmash : 97

= Uair : 100-118 // Upsmash : 98

= Uair : 99-120 // Upsmash : 95

= Uair : 108-115 // Upsmash : 107

= Uair : 94-106 // Upsmash : 96

= Uair : 80-91 // Upsmash : 82

= Uair : 101-120 // Upsmash : 101

= Uair : 113-135 // Upsmash : 110

= Uair : 77-95 // Upsmash : 79

= Uair : 95-118 // Upsmash : 92

= Uair : 102-120 // Upsmash : 100

= Uair : 97-98 // Upsmash : 87

= Uair : 106-113 // Upsmash : 102

= Uair : 89-95 // Upsmash : 90

= Uair : 98-101 // Upsmash : 99

= Uair : 95-115 // Upsmash : 95

= Uair : 89-105 // Upsmash : 88

= Uair : 95-109 // Upsmash : 94

= Uair : 105-122 // Upsmash : 102

= Uair : 96-112 // Upsmash : 94

= Uair : 97-118 // Upsmash : 96

= Uair : 80-94 // Upsmash : 81

= Uair : 120-146 // Upsmash : 115

= Uair : 87-108 // Upsmash : 86

= Uair : 100-108 // Upsmash : 101

= Uair : 71-80 // Upsmash : 74

= Uair : 94-116 // Upsmash : 90

= Uair : 90-105 // Upsmash : 91

= Uair : 92-102 // Upsmash : 93

= Uair : 90-105 // Upsmash : 91

= Uair : 100-118 // Upsmash : 98

= Uair : 96-112 // Upsmash : 95

= Uair : 95-115 // Upsmash : 95

= Uair : 95-109 // Upsmash : 94

= Uair : 91-100 // Upsmash : 94

= Uair : 105-125 // Upsmash : 102

= Uair : 94-108 // Upsmash : 92

= Uair : 82-100 // Upsmash : 81

= Uair : 90-105 // Upsmash : 91

= Uair : 102-125 // Upsmash : 97

= Uair : 98-116 // Upsmash : 98

= Uair : 95-110 // Upsmash : 96

= Uair : 101-118 // Upsmash : 99


Dont forget, when you grab at these % you can do at least ONE pummel at 4%. It help getting the good range. You want to be the closest to the lowest killing % so the opponent DI will be minimised.

Also if you hit with the Uair wind box it might stale your Uair. If your Uair is fresh you can kill 2% earlyer.

So for exemple i have 100% and my Uair is fresh, i am fighting a on T&C. I know the regular TooT-TooT(Uair combo) Kill between 90 and 111 on training mode. So i count, 90 - Fresh(2%) - T&C(around 4%) - rage100(around 13%) = i can kill at 71%. I see that has 69% so i grab her and hit one pummel before doing my combo 69 + 4 = 73. I am able to kill her at 73.


A good mixup is to Upsmash instead of grab when you run to your opponent if they think you will grab they will spotdodge and the Upsmash will catch the spotdodge.
An other good mixup is when you know you cant true combo to Uair after a Dthrow, just jump and wait for the airdodge. If you already did a good Uair combo they WILL airdodge 99% of the time.

Basically the main goal of GW in a game is to put your opponent in this range since it's really hard to kill after without a read.


Well that's it. Sorry for my english

 

[steuben]

awesome, thanks so much! gonna mess around with this later