Delta-cod
Smash Hero
Due to recent popularity, I think it's time we made a thread for this guy! Discuss the Greninja MU here.
Please stress MU tactics and approaches, the ratio is much less important than helping discover ways to effectively combat this character.
From the social thread discussion:
Please stress MU tactics and approaches, the ratio is much less important than helping discover ways to effectively combat this character.
From the social thread discussion:
Greninja is a rare MU. I know it but its really weird to explain. His frame data is not the best but its really not his frame data that makes him so good. Good greninjas can do 60% true combos just from a nair. Theres really no way out of any of his combos besides DI but that really dosn't faze greninjas.
You can tech greninjas up air spike so thats a goood thing to learn in the MU since he can kinda kill you from a combo at 60% unless you learn to tech his up air.
Learn the shadow sneak timing. That will help ALOT. Challange it all you want unless at kill percents. Make sure they can't go behind you though. Nair normally stops his shadow sneak. Dash attack always works to but a good greninja knows how to sneak in a shadow sneak without you realizing. They can jump, double jump or even taunt while charging shadow sneak and cancel the jump or taunt so don't be tricked. Don't let them fool you with walking to. Just because there walking away doesn't mean there charging up shadow sneak... I learned the hard way lol.
A good greninja doesn't charge neutral B all the way. Don't expect them to charge it all the way because most of the time they just use the shorter version. Its kinda like luigis fireball but with a bit more knockback and it allows followups.
I wouldn't play patiently against greninja anyways. Its good to actually punish his jumpings with eggs, nair and fair.
For counter picks. Don't take him to stages like duck hunt, wii fit omega, punch out omega.
How did I do @ Degerix
Good Greninja's barely use shadow sneak and just use their great combo game for 30+% or even a kill.
The diversity in Greninja's kit allows him to have a plethora of kill moves from 2 or 4 different moves if he reads the opponent correctly.
Like say Nair at around 80ish %, he can prolly chase afterwards to hit with fair Shadowsneak or even ty and guess that they DI'd down and he just does a running Usmash.
Yep @ YoHeKing ! Here are my insights on the rare Greninja vs. Yoshi matchup (as a Greninja main):
Two big parts of Greninja's battle strategy is to dodge attacks with his short hop so he can punish with a Short Hop Fast-Fall NAir to get in a sweet combo and using his Water Shuriken to keep the opponent guessing and baited.
I'm not sure if Greninja's FAir or Yoshi's FAir has the longer reach. A well-spaced FAir is a good approach option for Greninja due to shield pressure, range, and possibly pushback.
Yoshi's counters against a Greninja (based on my experiences from fighting YoHeKing) are:
-Yoshi's NAir may be able to cancel out an unsuspected Shadow Sneak since it takes a while for Greninja to actually attack.
-Since short hops are SO good for Greninja, people that main him jump a lot with him. If Yoshi can figure out the movement patterns of Greninja, he'll have an upper hand since he can... sayy.. for example, anticipate a jump and punish with an Up Smash. I've lost plenty of matches against YoHeKing since he anticipated a jump from me.
-PRETTY IMPORTANT ONE: Try your best to avoid getting hit by Greninja's Nair! It's among Greninja's best combo starters. Also, I'm pretty sure you Yoshi players are familiar with Greninja's insane combo potential with footstools and jab locks. Yoshi is amongst the characters those combos are easiest to execute on.
-Greninja's Hydro Pump can be troublesome for Yoshi if used correctly. May not be as effective on Yoshi as it is on most characters, but Greninja can still use Hydro Pump as a way to reposition or disrupt Yoshi's recovery into a bad spot for dangerous attacks such as a FAir or Up Smash.
Greninja is one of those characters that is weird and unique in the roster so you have to fight him differently from how you fight a character like Mario, Luigi, and Captain Falcon.
That's all I've got!
Yup. Good greninjas use shadow sneak when you least espect it. Degerix is probably the only few greninjas I know that doesn't abuse it but its kinda funny how the start up is just enough to react to (well for me).
Also greninja has ALOT of kill set ups and combo starters. Down air, counter(yes it does have a kill set up and combo starter) nair, fair, up air, footstool, grab, down tilt, up tilt, charged neutral B, up throw and forward throw are all combo setups and/or kill set ups.
Nair is a serious problem in the MU though. Theres like no way Yoshi can punish well used nairs unless he gets a read before it comes out. It has really low lag and can combo Yoshi hard at low percents. Since Yoshi can't break most of greninjas combos hes like CF when it comes to combos.
Also greninja has pretty good tools against Yoshi when they hit his sheild. He actually has a good enough dash grab to punish fair and nair landings mostly because of the range in most cases.
You really can't play patiently in the MU though. Greninja actually can camp Yoshi from what I hear and see.
I forgot to mention Greninjas kill set ups work diffrently on Yoshi. Nair actually doesn't combo into a up smash at high percents or kill percents. Really only works around low percents with correct DI.
For a very odd reason Greninja can't kill set up a Yoshi like many other characters he fights. Possibly because heavy+floaty and fast. Just be aware that he can get massive damage on you pretty quick.
Okay I'm done with what I had to take care of so I can put down some more points.
Shadow Sneak cuts down Greninja's ground and air mobility. If you have good reactions and learn how he moves, you can prevent a sneak attack from being successful on most Greninja's. As for trickier ones, it's pretty much a matter of guessing.
I'm PRETTY sure Yoshi can punish Greninja's NAir with his jab after he blocks it. May not be much damage but everything counts in a fight. Greninja's NAir and FAir have plenty of start up so there's plenty of time to react accordingly. Greninja's NAir may have low end lag (if it's grounded) but it has low priority and doesn't work like Mario, Yoshi, Link, and Fox's NAir.
Greninja's grab has deceptive properties. It can catch opponents as they're jumping and at weird distances. However, it's slower than most grabs. I'm pretty sure Yoshi can work around that.
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