Multishining Timing Difference Between Fox and Falco

[sirlaser]

Can someone explain please?

 

[ETWIST51294]

Falcos is slower.

 

[Brookman]

fox has a 3 frame knee bend and falco has a 5 (?) frame knee bend

 

[Doser]

Yea Fox has 3 frames and Falco has 5, so you have to go slower with multishining for Falco otherwise you will just jump.

 

[sirlaser]

So one can shine on frames 2-3 during Fox's jump and 3-5 during Falco's jump?

What frames during the shine animation(s) can one jump-cancel it?

 

[Brookman]

I see, let us go over the mechanics.

When I say "knee bend" I am referring to the animation of fox/falco preparing to jump. During this time, no inputs are accepted by the game. In order to "JC shine" you must shine on the first airborn frame.

fox:
1. input jump
2.-4. knee bend
5. airborn, input shine
6. shine comes out
7. input jump
8.-10. knee bend
11. airborn, input shine
12. shine comes out

repeat etc.

If you are really interested in developing muscle memory for this trick, I recommend SLIDING your thumb from Y to B.

Think of it as one motion, repeated over and over.

First thing is first, you need to develope the technique of Y to B, Y to B etc.

Once you can do a single, grounded double shine you can start developing the stamina for mass repetition.

 

[Bones0]

fox:
1. input jump
2.-4. knee bend
5. airborn, input shine
6. shine comes out
7. input jump
8.-10. knee bend
11. airborn, input shine
12. shine comes out

Fox is airborne on 4, not 5. It's like this:

FOX
1: Jump Crouch
2: Jump Crouch
3: Jump Crouch
4: Shine
5: Repeat frame 1

FALCO
1: Jump Crouch
2: Jump Crouch
3: Jump Crouch
4: Jump Crouch
5: Jump Crouch
6: Shine
7: Repeat frame 1

Most people do not do multishines frame perfect. You MUST shine on the first airborne frame (frame 4 for Fox, frame 6 for Falco), but you do not have to jump out of your shine immediately. When you are actually hitting people with multishines, you won't be able to jump out of your shine after just one frame anyway. The hitlag of hitting someone's body (or their shield) will determine how long you have to wait after the shine before you can jump again. The timing for shining after the jump, however, is constant.

 

[Brookman]

bones. learn to read.
[COLLAPSE="???"]Your explanation is superfluously masturbatory while simultaneously being incorrect beyond reason. You should just edit your post to say:

"dear brookman, please teach me how to be awesome."

But seriously, please edit your post before someone takes you seriously.

I think I'm going to throw up now. . .

I LOL more and more evey time I look at your post.[/COLLAPSE]

 

[Strong Badam]

i hate the term kneebend
it isn't technically incorrect, but it's fairly inaccurate in reference to characters like Jiggs and Kirby who have no knees. the game's coding refers to it as "JumpSquat" which is fairly accurate in and of itself.

but yeah the other people covered the basics. shine on frame 4 for fox, frame 6 for Falco.

Bones: he included the frame you have to wait for the jump input to go through.

 

[Glöwworm]

wut

so who's correct?

edit: got it

 

[Brookman]

See, you're already causing confusion.



1.DERP
2.DERP
3.DERP
4.DERP
5.DERP


[collapse="DID I DO IT RIGHT??"]

[/collapse]

 

[sirlaser]

I just realized the title is kinda misleading...it implies previous knowledge about multishining

So you only have 1 frame to shine? ****....alright, so this is why my Falco always shine like 2 cm off the ground...probably doing it on frame 7 or 8.

This is how IJC shines work right?

 

[darkatma]

I didn't know there was a frame needed for the input.

Interesting

 

[Brookman]

>___________________________>

These things are not instantaneous. . .

 

[Bones0]

>___________________________>

These things are not instantaneous. . .

You don't need a whole frame dedicated to inputting something...

fox:
1. input jump
2.-4. knee bend
5. airborn, input shine
6. shine comes out
7. input jump
8.-10. knee bend
11. airborn, input shine
12. shine comes out

See the bold part where it tells the player that they must have their shine out for 2 frames? Or perhaps that's telling the player they need to make Fox's jump last one more frame? Idk WTF is happening on frame 7. There's another anomaly right after. How come you input the shine on frame 11 (the first airborne frame), but you don't shine until frame 12. Are you supposed to wait until you've been off the ground for one frame before you shine?

None of that really makes sense.
Probably because it's wrong.
GTFO.

 

[Biglard]

I guess you just land on frame 7 because you have fallen a little bit from the 6th to the 7th frame.

 

[Brookman]

Bones. . .have you ever played this game in frame by frame??


Here, let me respond for you:

"derp, derpity dupurp."

I'm fairly certain we are both incorrect, however, I am much closer to being accurate than you since you account for . . . nothing.


edit: just re-read your post. . . this is me holding back something offensive.

 

[sirlaser]

Thank you

 

[Brookman]

You don't need a whole frame dedicated to inputting something...

Yes, ACTUALLY, You do.

Let me demonstrate by using a 60-fram cycle for you.

Let us pretend we are on fram 35/60.

On this frame you are static. You can input any command on this frame (A, L, S, Z, B, C, +/- directions.) For the sake of EASE we will assume you want to shine.

35/60 = INPUT SHINE
36/60 = SHINE COMES OUT (ONE FRAME MOVE =/= INSTANTANEOUS, ONE FRAME = ONE FRAME)

Now, assuming that I am correct in assuming you can jump out of Shine the frame after it comes out you can input a JUMP on frame 37/60

36/60 = Shine comes out
37/60 = INPUT JUMP - YOU WILL NOT INITIATE AN ACTION ON THE FRAME THE COMMAND IS INPUT.
38/60 = JUMP SQUAT BEGINS. Since melee has no BUFFERING, The game will IGNORE INPUTS
39/60 = JUMP SQUAT CONTINUES...
40/60 = JUMP SQUAT CONTINUES...
41/60 = AIRBORNE. The game will NOW accept inputs. This is where you INPUT the COMMAND for SHINE (AKA DOWN AND B)
42/60 = SHINE COMES OUT, AMAZINGLY, IN ONE FRAME (AKA, NOT INSTANTANEOUSLY), the game will not accept inputs.
43/60 = assuming there is not lag from landing in the shine, you can now input jump
44/60 = JUMP SQUAT BEGINS
45/60 = JUMP SQUAT CONTINUES
46/60 = JUMP SQUAT CONTINUES
47/60 = AIRBORNE. YOU CAN NOW INPUT COMMANDS SUCH AS AIR DODGE/AERIALS, ETC.

If you still don't understand, you are likely beyond my help.

 

[Strong Badam]

you can't JC shine until frame 4. input the jump on frame 3 of the shine, not frame 2.
and you can input something on frame 3 of jumpsquat and it will occur frame 1 of airborne. this is how JC shines work. perfect wavedashes land on frame 1 of airborne this way.

otherwise Brookman is correct, albeit he's being somewhat unnecessarily belligerent while doing so.

 

[The Star King]

otherwise Brookman is correct, albeit he's being somewhat unnecessarily belligerent while doing so.

How dare you? Never question Brookman's methods again.

I used to not like Brookman that much. But then I saw the light, and I realized he's the best poster in Melee Discussion.

 

[crush]

the difference is around 6 seconds in dog years
this post will help you more than book mans

 

[TheDekuNut]

the frame that the game reads the input is the frame that the move comes out

i had written a breakdown of why both of you are wrong much more nicely put than brookman has it of course derp. *winky-smileyface* But you can't really argue with what the frames look like so i made this instead

its a png of each frame with and without hitlag for both spacies
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=GSIZEN08 hope you have winrar

there has been an extensive thread dedicated to this for a long while courtesy of Stratocaster
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=214549
follow the falco set of screenshots without hitlag with this thread to understand precisely what goes on

1 full cycle of multishining for Fox takes 8 frames and for Falco it takes 10


notice the stance that fox and falco have during the frames of hitlag. they stand straight up without the shine stance

 

[sirlaser]

Better than Winrar: 7zip

You guys are so helpful. Why are you guys so helpful? Thanks again, makin' a newbie feel welcomed

 

[CloneHat]

the difference is around 6 seconds in dog years
this post will help you more than book mans

Useless information. We're dealing in Fox years here.

 

[darkatma]

the frame that the game reads the input is the frame that the move comes out

great, this is what i thought was true lol

 

[Brookman]

the frame that the game reads the input is not the same as the frame you press a button.

 

[Strong Badam]

true facts presented by Brookman

 

[Mooo]

multishining is the same for melee as nutrition facts are for the real world

it's inevitable to have a discussion about it without smartasses getting at eachothers throats, and when one smartass comes out victorious, it becomes clear that it really wasn't worth the argument

 

[Varist]

that was probably the worst analogy i've ever heard. and you used the word inevitable wrong.

 

[Strong Badam]

I'd say something here but Varist already said all that needed to be said.

 

[TheDekuNut]

i think the frame for inputs and outputs issue is a matter of perspective. yes you need to be holding a button before a frame switch for the move to come out the next frame, but is is possible (not humanly possible) to press and release a button between frame switches. go to training and set time to 1/4 speed press and release jump or something really freaking fast and you wont do anything because it was never down during a frame switch, this may take a few tries but is possible. you consider the time before a frame change as one frame and i don't, i look at the frame switch as one frame because of this. that's how my logic works anyway you're not really wrong

 

[sirlaser]

Language is an inherently imprecise device cultivated across years to eventually address our need to communicate. Why is writing very clearly so difficult? It's because it is difficult; language is not designed or anything for the construction and communication of very precise ideas, it is a conglomerate of habits and zeitgeists from across time which happened to pass through the generations, largely due to chance (I'll use that word because we do not understand exactly how the human brain operates).

That being said, it is almost always possible to interpret a phrase, a sentence, a paragraph in such a way that, when compared to facts, will not result in a conclusion stating that the aforementioned phrase/sentence/paragraph is incorrect.

Given my interpretation of how most people who commented on this thread interpreted Bones0's comments, I think we can safely conclude that his comments were not accurate with regard to multishining and the mechanics involved

 

[TheDekuNut]

ok my post is confusing lol

i guess i should start asking for operational definitions before discussion

nonetheless sirlaser is now among my top favorite posters here on trollboards smashboards

 

[RyeJew]

fox= triplets bxb fast
falco= metronome bxbx moderate

 

[Brookman]

Your notation is nearly flawless in conception.

 

[sirlaser]

fox= triplets bxb fast
falco= metronome bxbx moderate

Holy ****. Mind-blasting. It works.