My essay as to why I think clones are necessary for future Smash Bros. insallments...

[ChronoBound]

Alright, you went from "definite" to "very, very likely". That's good.

You also cannot say that Smash's roster will never decrease. Stop feeding your ego.

 

[Veng]

Making progress.....

But still, N64's graphics compared to gamecube suck, more people on gamecube roster.

/end topic.

 

[flyinfilipino]

You also cannot say that Smash's roster will never decrease. Stop feeding your ego.

Lol. I never said that at all. You're the only one that's speaking in definites here, which is just ridiculous.

 

[ChronoBound]

Making progress.....

But still, N64's graphics compared to gamecube suck, more people on gamecube roster.

/end topic.

Smash 64 was a low budget game that was not even planned to be relased outside Japan. Heck, Smash 64 was supposed to have Bowser, Mewtwo, and Dedede. The comparison is not valid. Also, Brawl was made on hardware that was only a slight jump over the GameCube.

 

[Red Arremer]

You 2 (ChronoBound and flyinfilipino) really should stop argueing so much... >.<"

 

[flyinfilipino]

Also, Brawl was made on hardware that was only a slight jump over the GameCube.

Exactly. That Brawl was able to make a bigger roster increase than Melee with only a slight upgrade in hardware really doesn't support the argument that you retracted earlier.

@Spadefox: You got any better things for ChronoBound to do here? Besides, you know that "arguing" is fun.

 

[Veng]

So what are you even talking about.

The roster has INCREASED while so has the speculations of the consoles graphics etc.

I can garuntee you Sakurai isnt going to make the next game of less quality than the last one.

 

[ChronoBound]

Exactly. That Brawl was able to make a bigger roster increase than Melee with only a slight upgrade in hardware really doesn't support the argument that you retracted earlier.

@Spadefox: You got any better things for ChronoBound to do here? Besides, you know that "arguing" is fun.

No, it does support my argument since because the developer's were experienced with the hardware (much of the Wii's architecture is based off the GameCube), which means, that programming the graphics was the least of their worries regarding Brawl. With Brawl, they were working on last-gen hardware that they had experience with, which allowed them to focus more on the roster than the actual graphics engine.

Also, Veng, I said that Smash 4 will have more characters than Brawl (I am guessing about 49-52, including transformations).

 

[SkylerOcon]

Well, I hope that Smash 4 will have at least SOME time dedicated to character balance. Though Brawl isn't horribly unbalanced, it still suffers from characters that are so good, such as Meta-Knight, you have to get in an argument to say that their worst match-up is below 45-55 (MKs favor) and then see character's such as Captain Falcon that are hard-pressed to find an advantageous one. We can't expect a game with the balance of Guilty Gear or BlazBlue, but we can expect at least SOME effort put into balancing the game.

 

[DekuBoy]

I think that we need.............. a director like the one the Valve team have. Have you seen TF2? Most balanced game EVER. Now, roster wise I think that all the long due characters like Ridly and K.Rool are going to be in.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Well, I hope that Smash 4 will have at least SOME time dedicated to character balance. Though Brawl isn't horribly unbalanced, it still suffers from characters that are so good, such as Meta-Knight, you have to get in an argument to say that their worst match-up is below 45-55 (MKs favor) and then see character's such as Captain Falcon that are hard-pressed to find an advantageous one. We can't expect a game with the balance of Guilty Gear or BlazBlue, but we can expect at least SOME effort put into balancing the game.

This might happen if Sakurai concentrates a little more on balancing 1vs1 play, which he might have time for if he starts earlier and doesn't put out a release date so hastily.

 

[Ochobobo]

Interesting article.

Though I could have done without your personal bias towards certain characters, that's just my personal bias.

Was a good read overall. lol

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

!Spoilers!

Spoiler

Snake is not dead, but has retired with a few months to live, according to MGS4

. Also, Metal Gear is basically identified with competitor consoles.

Finally, if you can't accept that the possibility that Smash Bros.'s roster will eventually decrease (as it has with many other fighting series), then you are going to be in for a rude awakening. Also, stop with **** myth thart Metal Gear had it beginnings on Nintendo. Metal Gear began on the MSX2. Metal Gear was then ported to the NES against Kojima's will. Kojima was so embarrassed by the port of Metal Gear and Snake's Revenge on the NES, that they decided to make Metal Gear 2 for the MSX2.

Fixed. Good Read.

 

[Plum]

This might happen if Sakurai concentrates a little more on balancing 1vs1 play, which he might have time for if he starts earlier and doesn't put out a release date so hastily.

Yeah, I would definitely prefer to wait longer for a better game than to get a poor member of a series quickly.

Something I do hope though is that the Smash series doesn't turn into something like the DBZ series. Seriously, over 100 characters gets to be too much. Balanced play > roster numbers.
But at the same time we do have to think like a business. What makes more money? A dozen characters like SSB64 or multiplying that number a few times?

Sadly few games will keep the competitor in mind through the making. Games like Starcraft are lucky to have developers thinking for the professional level.

Sakurai will just keep doing what makes him more money. Even if he changed his mind on the competitive scene and told Nintendo he wanted this game to be perfect for the competitive players Nintendo would just say to him that "We need this game released now, too bad." That's how a business works and we have to deal with that.

The least he can do though is have a group of competitive players test the game as well as casual players. The competitive players will find things in the game that they will know should or shouldn't be there and the casual players will always be in check as to whether it is fun or not. Nintendo will make more money appealing to the casual gamers, they do make up the majority after all, but to ignore a pretty sizable portion of the Smash world is wrong.

When the casual players get bored of the game and move on to the next big party game who still keeps the game alive? Us of course! How do you think classic 2D fighters still find a big fanbase? It isn't the people who picked up the game for a party or to hang out with friends and play; essentially Sakurai needs to learn that.

 

[SmashChu]

@Chronobound:A few points of interest.

1)Sakurai's reason for cutting things, from what I've read, is more due to his own reason. Nintendo has had projects go on much long and those have been released. It was Sakurai's idea because he had more ideas then would have been feasible to fit in a reasonable time frame.

2)Fighting Games have had more then 50 characters. They can also be balanced. Melee was less balanced then Brawl. More is not always less.

3)As time goes on, development will get easier and easier. Technology moves at a rapid pace, so it would not be far fetched to say that it would be easier to add more characters in the same amount of time as it took to make Brawl.

4)These so called casuals want more characters. This is the major complaint with Brawl. Also, casuals is insulting. Try using Expanded Audience.

5)just becuase some fighting games shrink their roster does mean Smash will.

 

[ChronoBound]

I just posted a new essay. This time it is about how I think clones are actuallly beneficial to Smash Bros. Yes, I know it is a controversial idea, however, it does help bring new ideas into the community. Please tell me what you all think about this new essay I posted.

 

[Nibbles 2]

Very interesting, well written, nicely done Chrono.

Personally, I don't really like clones (ruins a character's uniqueness, and due to their similarity you're sort of forced to compare the two, side with one as 'better than the other' and scorn the other) but if faced with the option of six clones or one unique character (as they had during the production) I'd choose the clones. It's always nice to look at a large roster :D

But, I look at clones as a 'better than nothing' option. They're nice to have, but if you had the choice for clones or unique characters, I'd choose unique every time, so in that respect I don't really share your enthusiasm to make the clones in your list. Sorry

But again, great essay, really fun to read.

 

[Mardyke]

That's an excellent essay which brings up significant and realistic points. It's easy for the community to complain about what they feel is lacking in any game, but often the difficulties are too numerous to overcome.

My only problem with Cloned or Luigified characters is that if the wrong choice is made on who to clone or who to Luigify, then the true potential of the character, if his potential for originality is immense, is deprived. For instance, you have Mach Rider listed as a possible Captain Falcon clone, which I disagree with strongly as he could easily be much more (case in point). Cloning should be excluded to, as you said, those who might not get in otherwise, but we should be careful about how we phrase that given Smash's criteria. A lot of people seemed to want K.Rool in more than Olimar, if memory serves - does that mean we should make Olimar a clone of someone instead of giving him the Pikmin dynamic he has?

Granted, a sequel can always fix the error. Yet there's the chance that the staple of a clone would become natural for that character. :/

 

[Yukiwarashi]

That was a very good essay, but I only have one issue. Your view of how Sakurai cut supposed clones because he heard people didn't like them...or that Mewtwo and Roy were cut for Sonic and Wolf. Where is your proof for such statements?

 

[ChronoBound]

That was a very good essay, but I only have one issue. Your view of how Sakurai cut supposed clones because he heard people didn't like them...or that Mewtwo and Roy were cut for Sonic and Wolf. Where is your proof for such statements?

They are both theories. The latter part of the theory (the part with Roy and Mewtwo being cut for Sonic and Wolf) is based off of a list within the game's coding that contains planned victory themes for every character on the game's roster with the exception of Wolf (Sakurai said Sonic was the last character added, which means that Wolf was the second to last character added since he was not planned to have his own victory theme, whereas Mewtwo and Roy were planned to be given unique victory themes).

 

[flyinfilipino]

If SSB4 isn't going to have a huge revolution in gameplay or a tine-intensive story mode, I would rather they take more time into developing the new characters, however many there would be. As you said, unique characters would definitely be a better idea if there's enough time.

And as Yukiwarashi said, it'd be nice if you mentioned that some of your statements are just theory.

 

[Red Arremer]

Don't forget Krystal as a Zero Suit Samus clone, Chrono. :3

 

[kr3wman]

Doesn't, like, Isaac fight fight with a sword?

 

[ChronoBound]

Doesn't, like, Isaac fight fight with a sword?

I already mentioned in the disclaimer before the list that a lot of the characters on the list could be made into unique characters. Also, I know Isaac uses a sword, however, so did Ganondorf but that didn't stop Sakurai from making his moveset nothing but punches and kicks.

 

[Nicole]

I dont really like clone characters. I see the appeal if you get to play your favorite character. BUT anyone who plays this game competitively (or at least the vast majority) are not going to use their favorite character if they're not good, or at least unique. I think they did a really good job making the new characters have different playstyles - Diddy, Lucario, Zamus, Snake, for example - but some of the new characters that they added are not good (Sonic, Pokemon Trainer, for instance) and few use them competitively even if they are favorites because it's simply so much easier to use characters like Meta Knight or Falco even though these aren't someone's favorite character from the series.

Clones are ok, I guess, but I would rather have a game with lots of balanced fighters, where any character could be viable against any other character (obviously there would be some disadvantageous matchups for everyone, but I'd like a game where no one gets absolutely obliterated - C. Falcon - and no one dominates - Meta Knight). So I'd opt for clones being entirely out, personally, and have the Smash team work on creating a cast of lots of viable, balanced characters, and perhaps having less characters even if that needs to be done. I don't see the need for 40 or 50+ fighters, especially if lots of them are clones (therefore not unique).

 

[MarthFanatique]

Doesn't, like, Isaac fight fight with a sword?

This is true; however, think about the other way around: When does Peach use a frying pan (besides cooking behind the scenes lol)? Yeah, Chrono, good equivalent to Ganondorf, too.

Well done overall. Made me appreciate the idea of clones, really. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said about how our condesending attitudes for clones were formulated due to the pitiful choices of clones in Melee.

Clones are overall nice though. Think about it everyone who opposes this thought: let's say you like Bowser's overall moveset, however you hate his speed (or rather lack thereof) and large stature. Well, if Bowser Jr. was actually made a clone (which is possible but a sin if done so), he would match your personal wants. Many liked Roy because he was like Marth, except he had a different voiceover, appearance (Marth's effeminate appearance pushed some away), the fact that he uses fire, and he is overall more powerful. The sweetspot of the blade promoted certain people's playstyles, as well.

IMO, final verdict stands as this: Clones are good if the character chosen is good. Clones provide almost a "customized" character in Brawl. You don't like Fox, try out Falco; you don't like Mario, try out Doc. It gives more options to the customer.


Excellently written, Chronobound. A+ as usual.

 

[Big-Cat]

This is true; however, think about the other way around: When does Peach use a frying pan (besides cooking behind the scenes lol)? Yeah, Chrono, good equivalent to Ganondorf, too.

Peach has a frying pan weapon in Super Mario RPG.

 

[Patinator]

Heeeeeere's where I disagree with you Chrono.

It's true, clones do increase the roster and lower development time...

...But with so many members of the Smash fanbase disliking or downright hating clones, why not just increase the development time? If you don't like Captain Falcon...

...Go for someone else.

:/

To add humor to a serious post, what's an insallment?

 

[trev94]

that was cool. cant wait till the next topic

 

[MarthFanatique]

Peach has a frying pan weapon in Super Mario RPG.

...hmm, didn't know that. Thx for that tidbit of info!

 

[Mardyke]

Heeeeeere's where I disagree with you Chrono.

It's true, clones do increase the roster and lower development time...

...But with so many members of the Smash fanbase disliking or downright hating clones, why not just increase the development time? If you don't like Captain Falcon...

...Go for someone else.

:/

Look at it this way; which would you prefer - the Black Knight being in Brawl, but as a clone of Ike (for some of his moves), or the Black Knight not being in Brawl at all?

 

[Deleted member]

Clones are a marketing tactic.

Obsessed Geno fanboy + Geno on box art = purchase

 

[Patinator]

Look at it this way; which would you prefer - the Black Knight being in Brawl, but as a clone of Ike (for some of his moves), or the Black Knight not being in Brawl at all?

...Hmmmm. That's a good point Mardyke. I feel the same with Wolf, too...

Bleh. X_X

 

[Mr.-0]

I like your essay. You should try to become a smash debater with this.

 

[DerpDaBerp]

this essay is stupid.

At what point was there an explanation as to why clones are necessary?

The only thing clones are necessary for is filling up space with a limited amount of time. Ideally, all the characters would have been given their own movesets. If it makes a better game, why not lengthen the production time? Why exactly are clones necessary to represent more characters from Nintendo's franchises?

Smash as it is with clones < Smash with all the same characters but given their own movesets.

If the only way to get a character into the game is to make him a clone (someone used the Black Knight example earlier), I say it's not worth putting it in. Rather take the time to develop them. Hell, Ike may very well have been the Roy replacement in that he'd be a Marth clone with Marth's moves, but slower and stronger. Developing him like they did with his own moves is exactly what should be done to all clones to make them unique (disregard how Ike isn't exactly the best character, he is his own character). MarthFanatique suggested that clones should be used to fit personal tastes, "more options to the customer". But why not give them more options via more unique chacters to choose from? If you like a certain moveset, great, play it. But if you can't stand little cosmetic matters so much as to switch to a clone, remember: it's a fighting game, not 'dress-up-barbie'.

Clones = developer laziness

 

[Red Arremer]

Words.

What would you prefer in Smash?

Ganondorf being a clone or no Ganondorf at all? (just as an example)

 

[Mardyke]

this essay is stupid.

At what point was there an explanation as to why clones are necessary?

The only thing clones are necessary for is filling up space with a limited amount of time. Ideally, all the characters would have been given their own movesets. If it makes a better game, why not lengthen the production time? Why exactly are clones necessary to represent more characters from Nintendo's franchises?

Smash as it is with clones < Smash with all the same characters but given their own movesets.

You're overlooking several obvious factors:

#1: Developers do not have all the time in the world, and cannot simply ask for more production time on a whim unless it is crucial to the game as a whole and not just for one thankless extra like a single new character.

#2: A lot of people want a lot of characters in Smash.

I wanna see Ed/Will. I wanna see Isaac. I wanna see Little Mac. I wanna see Micaiah, Mach Rider, K.Rool, Samurai Goroh, etc. in Smash. Is it realistic to expect them all? Hell no - it's hard work to program a character that works and is perfectly balanced. How do you expect them to get everyone in balanced and with their own original moveset?

 

[DerpDaBerp]

What would you prefer in Smash?

Ganondorf being a clone or no Ganondorf at all? (just as an example)

I would prefer Ganondorf to stay, by all means, but for him to have his own moveset. Why does a change in a character suggest they can no longer stay?

You're overlooking several obvious factors:

#1: Developers do not have all the time in the world, and cannot simply ask for more production time on a whim unless it is crucial to the game as a whole and not just for one thankless extra like a single new character.

#2: A lot of people want a lot of characters in Smash.

I wanna see Ed/Will. I wanna see Isaac. I wanna see Little Mac. I wanna see Micaiah, Mach Rider, K.Rool, Samurai Goroh, etc. in Smash. Is it realistic to expect them all? Hell no - it's hard work to program a character that works and is perfectly balanced. How do you expect them to get everyone in balanced and with their own original moveset?

1. Ideally, developers would use as much time as they need to get a good job done. I know that's not realistic, but niether is the claim that clones are necessary. Clones are THE thankless extra, not originals. Maybe they shoudl have taken the time they spent on SE to instead develop characters. Where is the replay value? Fighting matches, and who does the fighting rely on as a whole? The characters. And who cares how long it takes? Do you have any idea how long it takes Bethesda to develop Elder Scrolls or Fallout 3? They take hell of a long time but they always become masterpieces.

2. I would LOVE to see Isaac, and others, but I did not suggest that they go all out to cover all viable characters for one installment, don't assume just to argue. Take a few maybe, say Isaac, Little Mac, etc. and put them in, but don't make them clones. How utterly lame would that be if Isaac was a clone? What I was saying is that they can tone down on clones. 1 original moveset is greater then or equal to like... 3 clones. The greatest Smash is the one that has many likeable/requested characters but no clones.

And btw, none of the characters are perfectly balanced, developers just need to keep them from being broken or too poor--probably not so fine a line as you may think, they've been making new movesets successfully for three games so far after all.

 

[§leepy God]

♪ Wow, I remember this thread being about something, but I forgot what it use to be about... weird. I'll look at the first post now. †

 

[kr3wman]

It was about what got you into playing smash or something.