My essay as to why I think clones are necessary for future Smash Bros. insallments...

[Red Arremer]

I would prefer Ganondorf to stay, by all means, but for him to have his own moveset. Why does a change in a character suggest they can no longer stay?

No, I'm not saying that they shouldn't have a unique moveset. But considering Ganon (to stay with him) only ever got into the series as playable character because the developers felt the roster was too small and he has a similar build as Captain Falcon...

 

[flyinfilipino]

♪ Wow, I remember this thread being about something, but I forgot what it use to be about... weird. I'll look at the first post now. †

ChronoBound's been editing it to sneak discussion about SSB4 into GBD.

Anyway, THE pieman does have a point; as long as there's still no word on how much time the next game has to develop, it's pretty unnecessary to claim that clones are "necessary".

 

[ChronoBound]

ChronoBound's been editing it to sneak discussion about SSB4 into GBD.

I try in my analyses and essays to focus on past, present, AND future regarding the Smash Bros. series. Obviously, a portion of the speculation of the essay will involve speculation and foresight. However, I am trying to provide much detail as to why I feel the way I do in regards to that speculation as well as I am trying to reduce the influence of my own personal bias in my speculation and analysis.

I am very pleased and humbled that many of you enjoyed this essay. I put a lot of effort into it and I am happy that it payed off. I will utilize the criticism provided within your posts to improve the quality of my work. Thank you again for reading it and providing feedback.

 

[DemonFart]

nice essay,clones are cool.

<33333 Roy
<3 pichu

 

[DarkISDA]

Why only one <3 for Pichu? Anyway, great essay

You know what's funny? When I first played Melee, I didn't noticed they were clones LOL *Fail*

 

[DarkLouis331]

Edit: nevermind...I just realized that my post wasn't relevant to the topic at all -_-;

 

[goodoldganon]

Besides for Ganondorf I have never had a problem with the clones. It's not like you can play Link and Tink in the same fashion. It's a familiar feeling with the moveset but an entirely different outcome and playstyle.

 

[MarthFanatique]

Clones are a way to make a game balanced in a way, as well as keeping it diversified. Clones maintain order, yet stir up chaos. They are loved, yet are hated. Clones are appreciated, but oftentimes misled for crappy character inclusion excuses.

--MarthFanatique

 

[DerpDaBerp]

No, I'm not saying that they shouldn't have a unique moveset. But considering Ganon (to stay with him) only ever got into the series as playable character because the developers felt the roster was too small and he has a similar build as Captain Falcon...

Hmm, yeah I can definitely see them being similar due to their build

 

[MarthFanatique]

Hmm, yeah I can definitely see them being similar due to their build

Kinda ironic since Capt. Falcon runs like an Olympic sprinter and Ganondorf runs like someone on "Biggest Loser"...

 

[Red Arremer]

Kinda ironic since Capt. Falcon runs like an Olympic sprinter and Ganondorf runs like someone on "Biggest Loser"...

It's not about their speed, but how their body is built.

 

[donkeykongdiscoguy]

theres gonna be no choice but to have clones

 

[DekuBoy]

I feel clones offer a nice alternative style of play to a character who you might not like. For example, I found Fox too fast to control, but loved Falco. My main was Ness tho.

 

[Lythium]

I feel clones offer a nice alternative style of play to a character who you might not like. For example, I found Fox too fast to control, but loved Falco. My main was Ness tho.

I agree. My friend enjoyed my style of play with Fox, but hated Fox's moveset. He picked Wolf instead, and it was love at first sight... er, play.

At ChronoBound: You mention that Ken started off as a clone of Ryu. In the original Street Fighter, clones were necessary because you couldn't have a Ryu vs. Ryu match. It was physically impossible. Although you didn't add that to your essay, I think it's a key part of the history of clones, simply in regard as to why they were created in the first place. Even if it's not applicable to Brawl.

 

[Mardyke]

I would prefer Ganondorf to stay, by all means, but for him to have his own moveset. Why does a change in a character suggest they can no longer stay?



1. Ideally, developers would use as much time as they need to get a good job done. I know that's not realistic, but niether is the claim that clones are necessary. Clones are THE thankless extra, not originals. Maybe they shoudl have taken the time they spent on SE to instead develop characters. Where is the replay value? Fighting matches, and who does the fighting rely on as a whole? The characters. And who cares how long it takes? Do you have any idea how long it takes Bethesda to develop Elder Scrolls or Fallout 3? They take hell of a long time but they always become masterpieces.

"But just how much more awesome would it have been if they had this one more extra? One more place to explore! Come to think of it, they should have taken more time to fine-tune the animations a bit more; the people look ridiculous whenever they talk. Yeah, they should have! ****, I can't believe they were such lazy morons. If they don't fix that in the next game I'm not buying it!!"

Nintendo's policy has always been to give a game as much time for development as they possibly can, and Smash was no exception; case in point, they delayed it past its original release date of 2007. Brawl has, as a result, an amazing amount of overall polish according to designer's intent.

2. I would LOVE to see Isaac, and others, but I did not suggest that they go all out to cover all viable characters for one installment, don't assume just to argue. Take a few maybe, say Isaac, Little Mac, etc. and put them in, but don't make them clones. How utterly lame would that be if Isaac was a clone? What I was saying is that they can tone down on clones. 1 original moveset is greater then or equal to like... 3 clones. The greatest Smash is the one that has many likeable/requested characters but no clones.

You're overlooking the concept of either having them cloned or not having them at all. How utterly lame would that be if Isaac wasn't in the game? Public backlash is a horrible thing, especially since Smash isn't being milked to the extent where we have a new game coming out every two years - the gap between the release of the most recent and previous game in the series was a lengthy seven years. How'd you like it if you had to wait so many years for your character to get playability? I bet you'd prefer to have a clone to practise with in the meantime while waiting for the sequel where he's fleshed into his own character.

And btw, none of the characters are perfectly balanced, developers just need to keep them from being broken or too poor--probably not so fine a line as you may think, they've been making new movesets successfully for three games so far after all.

But the objective is to make them as close to perfectly balanced as possible, right? So they need to keep trying to.

 

[SpongeBathBill]

Agree with TC's generally , although if we're going to talk Isaac, I'm envisioning more of a Luigified Link clone than a Zelda clone.

But clones are definitely necessary and beneficial. I always wished Ganondorf could use his sword he swings around in his victory poses, but I've heard that if his body structure weren't so similar to Captain Falcon's, thus making him clonable, he'd never have made it in in the first place. And with characters like Falco, creating a whole new set of moves would be utterly redundant; Fox and Falco are both spacefaring anthropomorphic mercenaries, so there's no reason to differentiate them hugely.

(...although Landmaster is stupid.)

 

[AndreVeloso]

I am not fond of clones at all. Especially clones from different series (basing Ganondorf off Captain Falcon was weird). But I love seeing Luigi-fied clones just so their are more characters. I am a big fan of numbers, so Luigi-fied clones seem perfect to add to SSB4. However, is Sakurai is having troubles thinking of characters to put in, than he should spend time making unique movesets to them.

 

[Hive]

this thread is soo right! ^^ clones are way kwl. And cloning yourself is fun too.

 

[Kinzer]

Alternate costums are a much better idea rather than having to be uneffciently lazy with coming up with movesets...

Sorry, but I like how Brawl's roster allows for diversity, not when the selection screen is pretty much just halved assuming every character had another copy...

...And no, I'm talking about at casual level, not where MK and Snake reign dominant over everyone else...

 

[breegullbeak]

I think they need charecters from all systems. I want Master Chief, Mario, Sonic, and Snake all on a single system. I want Banjo and Kazooie kicking @$$ and taking names in a subspace sequal. I want Marth and Metaknight dead (no, seriously). I want so many collectables, I'll need to play for about a year. I want a online tourtment mode, a Bunch of charecters, and more than one system.

 

[Patinator]

I think they need charecters from all systems. I want Master Chief, Mario, Sonic, and Snake all on a single system. I want Banjo and Kazooie kicking @$$ and taking names in a subspace sequal.

...No.

I WOULD leave it at that, but I won't.

It's as if people have forgotten what Smash Bros. is about. It's about famous Nintendo characters battling each other's brains out as comically as possible, with a miniscule amount of non-Nintendo characters joining in.

Smash Bros. is not a game for ALL video game characters. The day we see, of all things, Master Chief in Smash Bros. is the day I will become a Krystal furvert.

 

[Red Arremer]

with a miniscule amount of non-Nintendo characters joining in.

With at least SOME history with Nintendo.

 

[wh1te5had0w]

this was a good read! i want roy back :<

 

[7ACE7]

I'm fine with similar characters but not clones. Its better when similar characters have similar but noticeably different moves. I'm glad they fixed that for brawl. For example Fox and Falco. In Melee they were virtual clones, but in Brawl they are just similar.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Good read Chrono, love the new Essay.

 

[VietGeek]

Why is the Smash Bros. community [seem]to be the only fighting game community complaining about moves that look similar? As long as the character plays differently, I'm pretty sure this isn't a problem. Oh look, all the 'clones' in Brawl play almost completely different from their 'original.' You're going to get ***** if you play TL like you do Link (and naturally vice-versa, with even more horrid results =<).

No one complains about the fact that most of the characters in Smash 64 have the same nair (and most of the 64 roster still has the 'sex kick', as well as Sheik in Melee in Brawl). I don't think anyone complains about Sonic having basically rehashed moves taken from other characters. Yet if they're in the same series and happen to have a few similar moves, we baw.

Yeah 3 Landmasters may be one thing but if anything, Sakurai did well on making more unique characters (probably at the expense of balance though >_>).

 

[Red Arremer]

Falco was supposed to get an Arwing as Final Smash, but that idea was scrapped, probably due to time constraints. Data for an unfinished Arwing Final Smash for Falco can be found.

And yes, I agree with what VietGeek said. I especially love when people say characters like Wolf or Lucas are clones, and yet think Luigi and Meta Knight aren't. And Meta Knight does share quite a bunch of moves with Kirby.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Falco was supposed to get an Arwing as Final Smash, but that idea was scrapped, probably due to time constraints. Data for an unfinished Arwing Final Smash for Falco can be found.

And yes, I agree with what VietGeek said. I especially love when people say characters like Wolf or Lucas are clones, and yet think Luigi and Meta Knight aren't. And Meta Knight does share quite a bunch of moves with Kirby.

Only difference is that MK got superbuffed.

 

[Scott!]

I think people complain about clones in Smash and not other fighting games because, unlike in other fighting games, the characters are not original for the game. In series like Soul Calibur (the only other fighting game I'm familiar enough with to talk about), all of the characters are originals created solely for the series, with the few exceptions of guest characters, like Tekken's Yoshimitsu or the console-specific ones in SC II.

Spoiler

Link ftw!

But in Smash, every character is a well-known character from a beloved series of games. People come into Smash with an attachment to some characters.

Take Ganon. He's probably the second-best known Nintendo villain, and after Link and maybe Zelda, the most important Zelda character. He's pretty popular. Yet, when he came to Smash as a Captain Falcon clone, people, including myself I might add, were annoyed or even offended. Even though he's important, it came across like he didn't deserve his own moveset. And the character he's based on isn't even relevant to him at all to boot. Now, imagine that you played Melee for the first time, knowing nothing about the history of any of the characters at all. Would Ganon being a clone bother you? I'd guess that it wouldn't. It would be an interesting variation on an old moveset. But people get attached to their favorite characters, and when they seem to get inferior treatment, they are offended. I know I'm still offended by what they did to Link from Melee to Brawl.

 

[Darknid]

I personally like the lugified clones. Look at Falco and Fox. Is there any reason for them to have different specials? They come from a game where they don't do anything but pilot ships(well, at least their only good game), they are supposed to be similar. I also don't get the term "luigified clone" when Luigi's A moves are still practically identical to Mario's with different effects/strengths/weaknesses, with few exceptions such as fair. In fact, his specials are what are different now, which is the opposite of what you defined "luigified" to mean. I don't mind two characters from the same game having similar specials, because that makes sense.


EDIT: Also, scott makes a good point.

 

[Laem]

I'm generally against clones, they should idd take the extra time to make all characters unique. And if there's a deadline, have em expand it: A better game should mean better sales(kind of idealistic i know).
I'm perfectly fine with Luigification tho, cause really, you cant expect mario and luigi to be completely different. They barely look different :o That reminds me of one more thing, if there have to be clones, at least let em be from the same series, captain falcon <-> ganondorf is kind of awkward

PS in SSB4 i want Ken and M2K, and Chillin as a clone of snorlax :D

 

[Red Arremer]

I'm generally against clones, they should idd take the extra time to make all characters unique. And if there's a deadline, have em expand it: A better game should mean better sales(kind of idealistic i know).
I'm perfectly fine with Luigification tho, cause really, you cant expect mario and luigi to be completely different. They barely look different :o That reminds me of one more thing, if there have to be clones, at least let em be from the same series, captain falcon <-> ganondorf is kind of awkward

So would you want to have a roster of only like 15 characters in Melee? Besides, the Luigification does apply on every character in Brawl, including Toon Link, Ganondorf, Meta Knight, Lucas and Wolf. Especially the latter two, though, as they only have similar specials than their "originals" and all around are completely different. Meta Knight shares a handful moves with Kirby, yet I never see anyone calling him a clone.

As for the series, Ganondorf got into Melee only because of a similar build to Captain Falcon. If you look at Melee Ganon and Captain Falcon, you see a similar build, just that Ganon is a bit buffer. I rather have Ganon with clone moveset over no Ganon.

So, there's your choice: Do you want Luigi, Ganon and Meta Knight in, with cloned movesets or a few shared moves, or do you want them in not at all?

As for the deadline: They would've delayed Brawl further, but the fans already whined and sent Nintendo death threats (not really, although I'm sure some did), so they decided to release Brawl not completely done. Halfly finished data is one of the results.

 

[Problem2]

I personally love clones. Eventually, when you make enough characters, either the characteristics start to blend, or you end up with a huge amount of completely odd ball characters. I wouldn't say that having a few completely odd ball characters, but they tend to make the game more complicated. I would be all for it, but if Sakurai wanted to cater to a middle or casual crowd, he would have to avoid making too many.

The point being is that characters with similar traits becomes more difficult to avoid with each character you add to the roster, so you shouldn't complain too much that a massive roster of 39 has a few.

Clones do serve a nice purpose to competitive gamers. By offering a tweaked version of another character, they add variety for players who generally liked many of the traits the two characters share, but may disagree on a few minor differences.

 

[The Max is Back]

The only problem that I have with clones are cloning characters that should never have been cloned or have no relevance with its counter part.

 

[choknater]

I think clones keep things interesting, like Ken/Ryu/Akuma/Dan from street fighter, haha. It's fun to compare sometimes and choose the style you like

 

[Xebenkeck]

LIke people have said, i don't mind clones, or luigifyed versions of characters if there from the same series. Fox, Falco, Wolf all having blastersd and reflectors makes sence, they are from a shooting game essencially, what else would you propose to give to them, snipers and rocket launchers, hardly.

It is when they clone characters that have no relevence to each other that drives me nuts, the C.falcon Ganon one being the worst. Many expected Ganon to be de-cloned in this game because there was so much you could do with him, i.e. sword and electric-magic attacks. There is no reason to cross-clone characters. Luigi-mario makes sence, Link-toon link makes sence considering in all zelda games you do the same basic sword maneuvers, pichu-pikachu made sence, Doc-Mario-obviously did too.

Chrono i've argued with you in the past, but what you say here is very intellegent, clones do help bolster a roster, think of it if Brawl had no clones, we probably wouldn't have Wolf, Toon Link, Falco, or Ganon. And i like some selections you made for the next game. The Bowser Jr. one is good, same with Vaati and Zelda, aswell as the lucas-claus or ness-paula(this one especially because paula actually uses ness' moves). Good read, i look forward to reading your next post/edit.