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My Fox

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
6,454
Location
Corneria, Lylat System
There were two major things I never saw you do in your matches.

The biggest mistake you made, was the choice in almost never grabbing. uthrow to anything works, you should know that. uthrow usmash->tech-chase to w/e.

You really need to start grabbing in the ditto. I see that you have nice dashdancing and movement, but you need to put it to use and bait your opponent in order to get a grab and **** the **** out of him.

Second mistake you made was spamming nair approaches. If that wasn't enough, you would go for a thunders after EVERY SINGLE NAIR.

Like you said yourself, use dair more, and stop going for thunders all the time. Try just aerial->shine->techchase grab or usmash.

Hope I helped man.

edit: I made a thread with vids too. :)
 

Falcinho

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 5, 2006
Messages
831
Location
Austria
RaynEX is everywhere in the Melee forums =O

Yeah, he pretty much pointed out already what i wanted to say

vary your approaches
grab more

and your edgeguard could be more efficent ^^
 

Pye

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Messages
496
Location
Montreal. PM me if you're on the island! I need op
I think that to improve, you need to find a better opponent.

Yes, the advice you're being given here is correct: you need to vary up your approaches (a more varied approach would lead to more grab use naturally, if you put in a marginal effort to approach with grabs sometimes, you'd get used to doing it).

But at the same, why WOULD you practice these things? Your current opponent falls for your shffled nair -> thunders approach EVERY TIME YOU DO IT. There's no pressure on you to try anything else. Against a better opponent who perhaps shielded your nairs and punished you for your constant thunders attempts, you'd be pressed to find different approaches or lose games.

That being said, against this Fox player, you could simply make the effort of varying your approaches, and that would help you on a technical level. However, because you wouldn't see -why- varying your approaches is helpful, it'll be more technical practice than actual thinking practice. You won't see yourself get inside certain defenses because your opponent wasn't expecting your approach, and you won't see your opponent punish approaches you previously thought were safe (shffl nair -> shine isn't a perfectly safe approach, despite your experience of it not being punished, ever).

You can improve on this opponent, sorta, with some effort, but at your level, finding new opponents who are significantly better than you would teach you everything you need to improve pretty quickly.
 

DippnDots

Feral Youth
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
2,149
Location
Cbus, Ohio
You shine a lot when it's completely useless, and you also don't follow/follow-up on your opponent well enough.

Up throw, up throw, up throw, even if they DI it you can fux them.


Edit: On the second match, you could have ended the CG with something better than the shine. Shine does little damage, try an upsmash or something.

Second edit: Seriously you shine waaaaay too stupidly
 

Tee ay eye

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
5,635
Location
AZ
Lol I was trying to shine->b-air to be flashy. ****ING LOVAGE. YOU'RE MAH HERO.

I suck at it, I know. I WOULD have done something better, but since it was just a friendly, I decided "Why not?" And I'm trying to get out of the habit of trying to shine->b-air because in my mind, I know I can't do it :[

And, if you're not referring to that, please elaborate.

Also, I DO play with better people, but it's usually at places where I'm unable to capture videos. This guy just happened to come over to my house.
 

DippnDots

Feral Youth
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
2,149
Location
Cbus, Ohio
I was referring to that in the first edit, but my second edit was more geared towards how in the first video I saw three times (in the first 30 seconds) where you shined after a Nair and it was completely useless. It gave me the impression that you were paying attention to your fingers instead of your opponent.

I understand that most videos uploaded are friendlies, but I assumed this thread was asking for advice.

If you just want advice on approaching, I can't help you much with fox, I haven't played him past the point of dash dancing around and ****ing people up when they make mistakes.


Edit: And, after watching the matches more, I'd work on your short up uair, because I saw a lot of times when you could have knocked him up with that but instead you threw a bair and knocked him outta combo range. I'm under the impression that if you get 1 uair off you can always land second, but that might only be out of an up-throw.
 

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
6,454
Location
Corneria, Lylat System
Lol I was trying to shine->b-air to be flashy. ****ING LOVAGE. YOU'RE MAH HERO.

I suck at it, I know. I WOULD have done something better, but since it was just a friendly, I decided "Why not?" And I'm trying to get out of the habit of trying to shine->b-air because in my mind, I know I can't do it :[

And, if you're not referring to that, please elaborate.

Also, I DO play with better people, but it's usually at places where I'm unable to capture videos. This guy just happened to come over to my house.

Man, you've got it all wrong. The shine bair has so much more to do with how your opponent d.i.s, than how efficient you are with it personally.

This isn't some waveshine combo you can practice at home. Its a combo that is wholly d.i. dependant; and as such, saying that you suck at it makes no sense.

The fact that you aren't hitting it is because your opponent isn't survival d.i.ing your shines.

The sad part is, the other fox. probably isn't d.i.ing the shines at all.

I apologize if you already knew this, but it sounded like you really didn't.
 

Tee ay eye

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
5,635
Location
AZ
Man, you've got it all wrong. The shine bair has so much more to do with how your opponent d.i.s, than how efficient you are with it personally.

This isn't some waveshine combo you can practice at home. Its a combo that is wholly d.i. dependant; and as such, saying that you suck at it makes no sense.

The fact that you aren't hitting it is because your opponent isn't survival d.i.ing your shines.

The sad part is, the other fox. probably isn't d.i.ing the shines at all.

I apologize if you already knew this, but it sounded like you really didn't.
Oh, really? I don't know much about shine->b-air. I just played/watched Lovage play and he seems to be able to pull it off so consistently, so I thought it was mainly about your ability to do it.
 

Deadandlivin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
77
Location
Sweden
Need more Ù throws --> Usmash/Uair based on percentage.

If you feel really confident perhaps shining incomming Recoveries. It's quie hard but atleast something to work on.

Could aswell add some thunder comboes when you've shined him and abuse the blaster alittle when you know you wont get hit.
 

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
6,454
Location
Corneria, Lylat System
The only reason Lovage could do it was because his opponent was probably stupid. He di.ed right into the bair after he got hit by the shine.

Everybody has this natural instinct to auto-d.i. towards the stage after almost any attack if they are near the ledge. If you d.i. towards the stage after the shine the bair hits.

The whole concept is lulz because it relys on epic d.i. fail.
 

Lovage 805

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Messages
2,197
Location
I left my wallet in
No I still get it when people DI away, like conn0r. Do you really have to be stupid to get hit with shine bair? Mango lucky and silent wolf are stupid? really, everyone gets hit by it and its hella fun to do so i dont know why you hate it so much
 

ConnorTheKid

Treat Yo' Self
Premium
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
6,782
Location
SoCal
Lovage is good at doing Shine > bair and he does it a lot on the best of SoCal. He did it like 10x vs Silent Wolf and countless times against Mango and Lucky. Shine > bair is flashy and awesome, I know uthrow > uair is more effective but that's just not fun =/
 

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
6,454
Location
Corneria, Lylat System
Lol, I'm not hating. You guys are in denial. I

Do you not see how ridiculous that sounds? Think about it in your head:

With proper d.i., how is anything after Fox's shine in the air possible?

I mean, if you play a lvl 9 cpu they will d.i. into everything you do, thats why you can do shine->nair, shine->bair, and even shine-DAIR. Because they smash d.i. everything from jabs to shines towards you, it now becomes possible to pull some Falco combos. 0_0

Trust me when I say that if you get in on Mango or whoever, they survival d.i. the shine because they EXPECT A BAIR, thus they actually d.i. the shine instead and get hit by the bair. Its their mistake really.

I'm just trying to teach you that its not about how good you can do it, its about your opponent's d.i.!

Just like the Ken combo with Marth. If you survival d.i. the fair you get hit by the dair. If you d.i. the fair away you can't get hit by anything except a reverse up+b, and even that is not guaranteed. When you see people get Ken comboed/shine->baired, you just know that somebody ****ed up d.i. real bad.
 

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
3,186
Location
Göteborg, Sweden
Im sure that shinebair can work on every character if you hit with the right part of the shine and cancel it to a bair fast enough without DI. I'm sure, I've tested this. If you dont beleive me, go to training mode (or vs mode and play against a controller port that noone is playing), uthrow anyone and jump up and shinebair. If you cant do it you're either not hitting with the top part of the shine or you're not canceling it into a bair fast enough. Start on bowser if you can't do it btw, it's easiest on him (you can even do a shinebair from the ground on him lol). It's hardest on kirby.
But you should be able to get out through DI:ing down and away. Haven't tested this though.
 

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
6,454
Location
Corneria, Lylat System
I know you can do it on every character, and I know some of it depends on where you hit with the shine.

Bottom line is this:

with no d.i.: It will hit if you connect with the right part of the shine (and this isn't even absolute, it misses alot.)

with d.i. in any general 'AWAY' direction: You don't get hit by ****.

with d.i. in any general 'towards' direction: You get baired in the face.

okay thats it...I <3 the fox boards no moar fighting.
 

Lovage 805

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Messages
2,197
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I left my wallet in
no, you can still hit with the bair if they di away from the shine, just do it faster
the only way you can di away from shine bair is down and away
 

unknown522

Some guy
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
8,047
Location
Toronto, Ontario
The only reason Lovage could do it was because his opponent was probably stupid. He di.ed right into the bair after he got hit by the shine.

Everybody has this natural instinct to auto-d.i. towards the stage after almost any attack if they are near the ledge. If you d.i. towards the stage after the shine the bair hits.

The whole concept is lulz because it relys on epic d.i. fail.
No I still get it when people DI away, like conn0r. Do you really have to be stupid to get hit with shine bair? Mango lucky and silent wolf are stupid? really, everyone gets hit by it and its hella fun to do so i dont know why you hate it so much
you have to shine the VERY BOTTOM of the character to link shine -> bair when they DI away
 
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