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My humble view on competitive Brawl

fr0st2k

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 23, 2006
Messages
383
Location
PA - Philly - North East
Melee, oh what an absolutely fabulous game. We will never forget the great memories it has given us; the hours of dedication to mastering each character, the frustrating moments all of us have shared, and of course, the countless hours of fun it provided for us.

However, like all good things, Melee's time has come and (whether or not you accept it) gone. Melee has had a huge impact on all of us here. We all love the game, or else we wouldn't be on this site patiently awaiting brawl (for those of use who havent gotten it yet anyway). But the impact it left, just might be too much to shake off.

We have played for years and years. I won't take credit, but many of us have worked hard to create a proper competitive atmosphere for the previous two installments, and have been very successful.

With the advent of Brawl, a new wave of fans have emerged and entered this competitive community. This is where my humble view begins. The years spent developing the Melee scene into a competitive one was the work of a relatively small group of dedicated fans (small when compared to the fanbase as it is NOW). They toiled, they discussed, they argued, and of course, THEY PLAYED, they played a lot. They learned what works, they learned what didn't, and the eventually all came to a communal understanding of how things worked.

However, the new wave of smashers flooding into their peaceful commune, never came to this communal understanding.

This is where my first fundamental point lies. It is that this understanding between the two groups is nonexistant. When one talks to the other, there is an large wall separating the twos thoughts and opinions , and it must be chiseled and broken before any kind of understanding can take place (the strength of the wall varies person to person of course).

Both groups have their flaws, which is making these walls harder and harder to break.

The newcomers:
I see a lot of the old members trying to chisel this wall down between you newcomers and themselves, although many times, they find themselves faced with unbreakable walls. A lot of people simple won't except that they have more experience than yourself, and you can learn a thing or two from them.

So I ask this question to the newcomersL: Can you at least try and be considerate of others opinions. Accept that there are indeed some things that you can't argue, or out of proper respect, shouldn't argue?

The old members:
It wouldn't be fair to ignore you guys while pointing blame. The biggest problem I have seen with older members their inability to bend. Bending helps a team stand tall. As i stated in my opening paragraph, Melee has indeed left a large large impact on us all, but on the older players much more so than the newer ones. Don't allow yourself to be so encompassed by what Melee WAS, to forget that Brawl CAN BE, something entirely new, and better.


Melee's potential and competitive spirit was founded through experimentation and through time. I agree, that using the past to enlighten the future is going to be a great benefit while shaping brawls future, but to infuse Brawl with as many of melees traits as possible, hardly seems fair for Brawl.

This is my second fundamental point. We need to shake off melee. We have all had a lot of fun with melee, and we all want to start having that same amount of fun with Brawl. In fact, we all want it TOO quickly. I see many topics where people are trying their hardest to find out the newest "advanced techniques." Perhaps looking for a little smashboards fame, or maybe they just really want to find that replacement for wavedashing. It's of little importance, but it shows that people are trying, actively, to seek for similarities between melee and brawl.

I really dont think this is a good idea. I think by doing this, we aren't allowing brawl to be as unique as it can be. We are infusing Brawl with our melee experiences, and detracting from Brawls true potential.

As a smash community who should emphasis true professionalism, this is a downright crime.

I ask that we all, as fans of the series, and fans of Brawl, try to push forward with Brawl as it is, and not as what we all hoped it to be, or hope it will be.

I'll leave it at that. I hope i offended no one, and I hope people get something out of this. This board is in a huge cacoon right now, and the actions we take now will decide on whether it emerges as an ugly moth, or a beautiful butterfly (lame i know ...lol)

Thanks for reading this book....:psycho:
 

Ichida

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
895
Location
Toronto
I ask that we all, as fans of the series, and fans of Brawl, try to push forward with Brawl as it is, and not as what we all hoped it to be, or hope it will be.
Nope. Sorry. SmashBoards won't do it. After all, it doesn't have wavedashing. As everybody with a post count that merits listening to their views knows, Brawl fails for being too slow and not having wavedashing.

</sarcasm> (OOC: Since many people's sacasmeters are busted lately.)

But seriously, this essay-class post is the truest thing posted in the last 24 hours.
 

Turtlefox

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
53
Location
Mississauga, Ontario
I just skimmed through it, so I'm not sure if what I'm about to say is relevant, but maybe the newcomers (that is, assuming you're talking about people new to the series or the people who played melee casually, and wish to play brawl competitively) will lead the way in developing the meta game for the competitive scene. x_X
 

Betaz

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 28, 2005
Messages
742
Location
Auburn, WA
Finally something that I can read without seeing "Landmaster"
quite a bit of intelligence and work in that post nice job!

@Turtlefox
that's not what I got out of it...
I think you need to read all of it >.>
 

Fallen Pit

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Messages
16
Location
California
I like ur last point. We shouldnt disect brawl from a melee viewpoint. We should see it as a new game-not an addition
 

Lavos

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 4, 2005
Messages
299
Location
Purdue, West Lafayette
Despite this point being brought up again and again, Wavedash devouts don't get the message.
Dude, you're begging to start a fame war. Stop talking if all you're going to do is insult people who wish WDing was in Brawl. That's obviously not the point of the topic.

Good post TC. I think you covered all fronts fairly and have a good grasp on the situation!
 

The_Woebegone_Jackal

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
378
Location
Minnesota, USA
NNID
Faver_Jo
3DS FC
4854-6514-7143
*claps*

Very good post :bigthumbu

Comparing Brawl to Melee is like a parent comparing their younger son to his older brother. In their drive to praise what the older brother is and what the younger lacks they may miss out on what he is and/or could be...
 

squarez

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
186
Despite this point being brought up again and again, Wavedash devouts don't get the message.
It seems sir that it is YOU who does not get the message. First you say it's sarcasm and then you reply again with these sort of comments? Looks like you are the type of people who

"However, the new wave of smashers flooding into their peaceful commune, never came to this communal understanding. "

How to double quote?
 

Tajem

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 19, 2006
Messages
127
Location
Louisiana
This is all so true. A lot of people really can't accept that Brawl isn't Melee2.

Internets to you, good sir.
 

Blackshadow

Smash Ace
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
900
Location
Adelaide, Australia. Along with my Mad Duck.
I appreciate the fact you're trying to help, but all of what you've said has been said so many times before. Making these topics will only cause more flame wars, because its obvious no-one actually takes the advice thats in the first post. The constant flames wars prove this.
 

Yeroc

Theory Coder
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 28, 2004
Messages
3,273
Location
In a world of my own devising
I agree with the premise of coming to accept Brawl for what it is. People that can't do that need to grow up. But that in no way should entail or necessitate "giving up" either of the previous games. I played Brawl last weekend, and it was a fun and refreshing new experience. The next morning after a few more rounds, we dusted off the n64 and played that for a while. Guess what? We fell right back into it, no problems, and it was still just as fun. A few days later I went to a different friend's house and played some Melee. Still the same awesome game from the past 6 years.

There are 3 different Smash games now, all with their own unique charm. Play what you want to play, but don't bash others for their differing opinion. We should be a Smash community, united across one common series.
 

Eaode

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
2,923
Location
Glen Cove/RIT, New York.
I read the whole thing, and you were doing great, right up until the end, when you wrote this:

fr0s2k said:
This is my second fundamental point. We need to shake off melee. We have all had a lot of fun with melee, and we all want to start having that same amount of fun with Brawl. In fact, we all want it TOO quickly. I see many topics where people are trying their hardest to find out the newest "advanced techniques." Perhaps looking for a little smashboards fame, or maybe they just really want to find that replacement for wavedashing. It's of little importance, but it shows that people are trying, actively, to seek for similarities between melee and brawl.

I really dont think this is a good idea. I think by doing this, we aren't allowing brawl to be as unique as it can be. We are infusing Brawl with our melee experiences, and detracting from Brawls true potential.

As a smash community who should emphasis true professionalism, this is a downright crime.

I ask that we all, as fans of the series, and fans of Brawl, try to push forward with Brawl as it is, and not as what we all hoped it to be, or hope it will be.
Advanced techniques aren't exclusive to Melee. SSB64 had them. Brawl has them. ANY fighting game will have them. I'd even say that any competitive game, fighter or not, has advanced techniques. It's not searching to make Brawl like Melee, it's finding out the intracacies and unique aspects of Brawl, so we can bring it to a new level, and open the doors to fun, high-level competition for years to come.

Finding advanced techniques in Brawl is how we truly delve in and examine Brawl's unique mechanics, and analyze its special potential. It shows how much the players here on smashboards appreciate this game. They are willing to examine every little tidbit of Brawl's engine and find different ways to use it to further the goal of winning.

You must also understand that whatever we find in Brawl is unique to Brawl. If we find out something in Brawl's mechanics that re-enstates an old Melee aspect, it's not like we're turning the game into Melee, this nuance was hidden in Brawl all along. Just learn to accept Brawl as another smash game in the series, and let it become what it is destined to be, whatever it may turn out as.

By trying to restrain the finding of advanced techniques, you are trying to restrain our understanding of Brawl. Limiting the community to ignorance of how deep this game can be is a crime, not finding and appreciating the depth it holds.
 

S623

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
183
Location
Homewood, IL
Oh man. I love you, man. The only thing I disagree with is what Eaode posted about. There will always be AT's in Smash. You've got to let people play games to deepest bowels of darkness in which enlightenment may be found.
 

Doggalina

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 25, 2005
Messages
1,958
Location
Chicagoland (NW Indiana)/Purdue West Lafayette
Finally something that I can read without seeing "Landmaster"
quite a bit of intelligence and work in that post nice job!
Agreed. Ever since Brawl came out, the Brawl boards have been (almost) nothing but spam that I usually find perusing the IGN or GameFaqs forums. When I come to Smashboards, I want to see intelligent discussion about Smash.

I've been here for a while now, and I remember the time before the huge influx of new members after the Brawl trailer. Better times? Maybe, but hopefully we get some new members who will help develop Brawl.
 

S623

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
183
Location
Homewood, IL
I've been here for a while now, and I remember the time before the huge influx of new members after the Brawl trailer. Better times? Maybe, but hopefully we get some new members who will help develop Brawl.
Or maybe we'll clear away off the boards once we've been distracted by something else? Not me. I'll help develop game-play!
 

Blue sHell

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 17, 2007
Messages
385
Location
Spread across toast
Alot of the things we've said we're sincerely very well said, but really some was so far off it's almost crazy how all these people are praising it. No offense.

Advance tactics aren't being found to make the game into Melee, they aren't being found to make the game look like Melee, feel like Melee, or even play like Melee. They are being found to add more depth to the game. And depth in the competitive scene is what we competitive players always strive for.

Most of the advanced things we've been finding lately have absolutely no relevence to Melee except the title of "advanced". Really now. The game is fantastic and we are trying to make it even more fantastic by studying all its possibilities. I see nothing wrong with that, and in the end the newer smashers won't see anything wrong with it either.

The new mindset of Brawl, isn't very new at all. It's the same its been for smash since the competitive N64 days. We strive for fairness and depth. If Brawl has something that is part of its game(i.e. Final Smashes), but it in turn takes away fairness and actually unbalances competitive fighting, then it won't be used in tournaments. We don't tell people never to turn on Final Smashes, because they are fun, but really for pure raw competition we need to focus on depth and fairness
 

fr0st2k

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 23, 2006
Messages
383
Location
PA - Philly - North East
Oh man. I love you, man. The only thing I disagree with is what Eaode posted about. There will always be AT's in Smash. You've got to let people play games to deepest bowels of darkness in which enlightenment may be found.
this is in response to Eaode and your own post.

I really didnt mean brawl SHOULDNT have advanced techniques. I just dont feel people should constantly be looking for, and trying to find them as fast as possible.

Every day i pop on these boards and see a new post with a new "possible" advanced technique.

Its just too darn early to worry about these things yet. They'll just happen, no need to rush the experience, its just probably wont work.
 

Chaosblade77

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
1,958
It just comes down to people being impatient and unwilling to change. A lot of people had the mindset they didn't like Brawl after the first time they played it and closed their minds completely. That also applies to people who felt it had no depth whatsoever, their minds are closed to anything that comes up that potentially adds depth; they either forget about it or argue against it.

I'm not a competitive, tournament player and to be completely honest I don't care what they do. As far as I care, they can drop Brawl and play Melee for 7 more years until a possible Smash 4 comes out. I'll enjoy Brawl, and that's that.
 

kilroy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Messages
442
Location
Smashachusetts
good show, fr0st. everyone around here just needs to calm the heck down, let the game be released for goodness sake, and spend some time just playing it.

the metagame will develop naturally. it can't be forced upon the game, then subsequently followed by the distraught player declaring that Brawl is useless for competitive play when their square peg doesn't fit the round hole.

early import impressions are well and good, but it's a small sampling over a small period of time. we need a much larger view to even begin seeing the big picture.

and in the end, play the game you have the most fun with and don't be hatin'. ;)
 

Blu-ninja

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
479
Location
you know the place.
Glad you brought this up here on SWF.

ile quote from what i said at brawl central.

Zamu said:
love this.glad you took to the time to spark this convo up!
;)

...why cant everyone just be both?
love the game..but contribute to the smash competitive commune?


ive done this for the longest time.

but its hard for others since its a basic human trait to want to KNOW you're better than someone else in the world.

so long as the need to be better than others goes around in the smash community, this war WILL rage on.

only when casuals organize, come up with theyre own system for doing things and completely DISBAND from Pro precense will both sides EVER find peace.

the new online really opens up a bridge for that kind of gameplay..and i hope we can all take advantage of these new oppurtunities in hopes of resolving this...pompous...conflict.

*Casual Pros FTW

EDIT:

Kilroy has something too.
 

RednaXale

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 29, 2008
Messages
189
*claps*

Very good post :bigthumbu

Comparing Brawl to Melee is like a parent comparing their younger son to his older brother. In their drive to praise what the older brother is and what the younger lacks they may miss out on what he is and/or could be...
Good analogy.
In the last year I have practically forgotten about Melee. I can't even remember the last I played it.
 

SN3S

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 26, 2006
Messages
194
1. /Salutes; That was an excellent post.

2. This whole Melee/Brawl Transition/Separation that's going on is just like SRK back in the day... So fun to watch.

Grabs Popcorn
 

M.K

Level 55
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
6,033
Location
North Carolina
This. Post. Is. Made. Of. Winning. Walruses.

I agree, people need to let go of their Melee roots. Melee's been voted out of the tribe, it's the last to reach the checkpoint, it's fired, it didn't receive a rose tonight, it's not America's Next top model/idol, it's not dancing with stars, and it IS the weakest link. Good bye.
 

Nitoheilapine

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 23, 2008
Messages
110
Location
California
I'll have to agree with the OP that amateurs need to learn from veterans and shouldn't shun advice.

I don't know what we are talking about now, so I'll just sit back and smile. (^-^)
 

Embrio

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 21, 2008
Messages
59
You know a lot of top players have slammed this game for it's lack of depth and universal sub systems, it seems like any typical casual noob can hang with good players.....I doubt this game will get more then 4 months worth of heavy rotation in tournies.
 
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