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Nana is not all that blonde! : A guide to Nana's A.I.

swordgard

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
5,503
Location
Canada
Remember last time you and nana were separated, then she randomly SD-ed. Or that other time where snake f-smashed her and you were out of range to save her? Or when metaknight started air comboing her into a gimp and you stood there watching without any means to counter this. This is why I decided to make an analysis of Nana's AI in order to understand and use it to our advangtage.


List of known facts:


1. When within your range, Nana will use any attack you use after a set delay, copying the input and not the output.
2.Even within range, some moves will allow you to desynch from Nana for long enough to use different inputs.
3.B-Moves will instantly desynch ics for a short period of time.
4.Out of your range, you can use Up-B and Side B resynch both ice climbers.
5.Whenever out of range, Nana will hold the control stick towards you and try to reach you, resetting output after every time she is interrupted(she gets hit, then start pressing towards you directly after).
6.Nana determines her path using the angle rather than the obstacles between you and her!
7.Whenever offstage, Nana still abides by those rule but will jump and Up-B by herself.




Application:
A) Teaching Nana to DI!
Whenever Nana is out of range, she is automatically holding in your direction and will reset the input on first frame of hitlag when she gets hit. The result of this is that she will not only SDI once in your direction, but also automatically ASDI/DI in your direction. If for example you are to the right of snake and nana is coming from the left and he forward tilts her, chances are her SDI will get her behind him before the second attack hits her. This is also very useful for example whenever MK is too high for you to hit but he is consistently U-Airing Nana in the hope of doing a 0 to death finishing with tornado. If you stay under him, Nana will DI downward meaning that it will extremely easy for him to finish the combo. On the other hand, if you run to either side of the stage, Nana will angle her DI more horizontally which will allow her to get out of the combo because she has good SDI abilities due to the new angle created by going to the sides as seen here.








B) Controlling Nanas movement from afar to escape bad positions
Whenever Nana is stuck away from you, she will by default follow the angle to get to you no matter what. This can be a problem when she is high up in diagonal away from you but going directly towards the opponent which is going to consistently attack her as she moves towards you. The best way to fix this is by changing the angle radically by running across the stage to get nana to go another way. This can be seen here. This is very noticeable whenever Rob for example tries to N-Air multiple time Nana out of your range and you want her to get out of his range because she is technically aiming at him.






C)Forcing Nana to jump to potentially escape fatal moves
Whenever Nana is across the stage she usually directly runs towards you which results in her getting directly punished by receiving a fully charged forward smash from many characters. This can be especially dangerous vs characters such as snake. Many people tend to use Up b or ice block to try and save nana from the hit but the ice block is often too slow and up B leaves you in a position just as punishable. Since nana act according to the angle and not the distance, you want to radically change your angle to something more vertical so that Nana will jump since as soon as your reach a certain angle she jumps. Ice block keeps you longer and the air and even allows you to sometimes to stop the F-Smash.




D)Understanding the various AI problems with nana.

Nana sometimes cannot recover from under the stage and dies instead of recovering, this is because she goes by angle and not by path as seen here. You can try to go more to the left to help her or use up b since the range goes through even solid objects.




Whenever Nana is right by you and she is falling and you are near the edge of the stage and she is about to grab it, if you shield an attack she will automatically airdodge, miss the ledge and die since she copies the input.




Whenever you use a b move and up directly after, since you are desynched you will both up b at the same time but desynched meaning you will both die.








Problems remaining to be analyzed: Get up options for nana and more
 

Katakiri

LV 20
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967
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Katakiri
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Well I sure learned something today. Draw a line between Nana and Popo and guard that line with my life. D:<
 

EverAlert

Smash Master
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Australia
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Also would like to point out that the thread title is misleading, this proves that Nana is a blonde! xD

But yesh, good stuff, very informative. :)
 

IxxI

Smash Fence
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
2,147
Location
Berkeley, CA
I haven't read it completely, but this does look completely amazing. I love you swordgard.

Edit: Can someone explain to me why sometimes when I'm off stage with Nana, and I Up-B or Squall she won't resync? I thought those two moves resymc Ice Climbers?
 

Funen1

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 2, 2008
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362
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Bloomington, IN
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Funen1
I figured that Nana would try to come back to Popo when separated, but I never put this much thought into it. Maybe because I always thought Nana couldn't DI in the way you described. Well, I learned something new today. Thanks Swordgard.
 

swordgard

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
5,503
Location
Canada
boo u were suppose to keep this a secret :laugh:


You know i dont mind either sharing or keeping stuff secret and i do realize why you and lain want some stuff to remain secret, but i posted this for 2 reasons.


A) I felt like ics board were in a "down" phase. Too much offtopic stuff, lets get productive!
B) For my matchup book, if i reference something and people dont know how to do it they go wtf. I dont wanna hold 2 versions of matchup book either(1 public, 1 for myself), would take too much time. So sometimes il be randomly releasing stuff like this.


EDIT: Today if i have time il sligtly elaborate on snakes fsmash part and anything else i may have forgotten/
 

Smasher89

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Messages
1,936
Location
Sweden
So this would basicly mean when separated against snake, and Nana is coming towards the fsmash that Popo should doublejump Iceblock for another option to save Nana, interesting find^^
 

Nick A

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
61
Location
Sacramento, CA
Another thing that most IC players know and which might be worth putting in here: When tumbling, having not yet recovered with a dodge/attack, a side-b or up-b will result in a desynced Nana; which will probably result in your death or getting punished.

Nana... what a *****.
 

swordgard

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
5,503
Location
Canada
I never told lain, doubt he had this much info on his own. Im the one who also pointed out to meep how to DI with nana. This is pretty much all from my own observation.
 

lain

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
4,278
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Ann Arbor, MI
I knew most of this months ago

Figured it was common knowledge Nana walks to you, so she's holding a direction, so she's di'ing.
 

Prawn

Smash Master
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Apr 27, 2009
Messages
3,031
Yeah Lain(and Meep too I beleive) told me almost all of this when we were smoking at SNES and he's seemed to know it for a while lolololol. Still useful to know though.

I seriously hope I start doing better at some of the tournys out here because my ICs are getting good, I just **** up in tournies :/
 

swordgard

Smash Hero
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Messages
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Canada
Lain not to attack you or anything, but every time m2k upaired nana to nado to death, you just stayed under. If you knew about this stuff, you certainly did not apply it in matches.
 

lain

Smash Master
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M2K did that to me once in that one set and you have to pick it out and call me out on one mistake? Hooooookay.

Meep, Prawn, and I were talking about this at SNES like 3 months ago or w/e.
 

Prawn

Smash Master
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Apr 27, 2009
Messages
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Yeah swear on my life he said run to the farthest side if it happens and I think he said spam fsmash IIRC but I was super baked at the time so whoooooo knows.
 

swordgard

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
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Location
Canada
M2K did that to me once in that one set and you have to pick it out and call me out on one mistake? Hooooookay.

Meep, Prawn, and I were talking about this at SNES like 3 months ago or w/e.
Weird, seemed to me like when i talked to him (meep) it seemed like the first he heard about it, just saying, might have interpreted this wrong though. I have however
A) Not seen you use very actively nana DI before tbh to evade comboes shes in
B) Have never seen you actually write stuff like that. Having a vague idea of what characters and putting it on paper is different, you need clear direct understanding and it is very easy to go from "vaguely knowing" something into assuming you knew everything after reading the more precise version, its simply how humans work, we have a tendency to believe that we are the pinnacle of knowledge.
C) Note that i also never claimed to have been the first to discover any of this, i just said i did not get this from you or from meep. If you dont share your stuff thats your choice, but dont go omfg if i say i discovered something, you never talked about it on the boards and then say you always used it when videos show no evidence of it.

EDIT: Its not the only time it happened, i watch alot of your matches, and tbh i feel like your not using it that much.
 

Neherazade

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 5, 2009
Messages
359
Location
Gensokyo.
This is helpful... I guess.

It's hard for me to fathom using it effectivley in a tourney.
with so much happening, It would be hard to keep track of all teh angles (for me, at least.)

Still, knowing how Nana responds to things is the first step to controlling her (outside of desynch).

Nice job!
 
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