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Need Help against Snake

Yomi-no-Kuni

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Messages
1,016
Location
Freiburg germany
Hey guys...
sorry, but i couldn't find the match-up thread, and i lost to a Snake player at a recent tournament, which i expected to beat...

i was actually pretty helpless, and i was wondering if there are any specific things that you should use or note when playing against a good snake...
(shame on me, i didnt manage to get into top8, and i expected to get Top5 at least -.-)
 

Yomi-no-Kuni

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Messages
1,016
Location
Freiburg germany
i just saw that in the chart anyways :D
but yeah, it´d help if you say a thing or two about it :D
i have problems killing with ivysaur :/
 

Vegeta214

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Messages
114
sorry for kicking you out of the tournament, mate.

try not to be predictable with rolls etc. iirc, I f-smashed you like twice for the kill. always keep your eyes peeled for grenades and especially C4. grab instead of attacking if the snake is holding a grenade. try to rack up damage with squirtle and use charizard to finish the snake off.

never try to outcamp him with pt, its impossible. your counterpick gave you a disadvantage, allowing me to be in a favourable position throughout the second match.

I feel that ivysaur is helpless against snake, I can edgeguard him so well its not even funny. so try using squirtle's grabs for damage and his fluid movement to pressure your opponent, then bring in charizard once either you or snake are at high percentage.

judging from the matches the two of us have played so far, I think PT has a huge disadvantage vs snake. maybe you should think about using another character in that matchup.
 

Retro Gaming

Black and White Thinking
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
1,088
Location
Iowa City, IA
Ivysaur, without a doubt, does the best in this matchup. He's capable of preventing Snake from grenade countering because of Razor Leaf spam into Ftilt, which is a feat at long range. Yukiwarashi was able to keep pressure on me using a full hop double Razor Leaf > close range Ftilt into Dtilt.

Snake is most vulnerable in the air, that's a given. Anything can keep Snake in the air, use it. Though, Ivysaur truly does not have many options for off the stage edge guarding. As Steeler said, Ivysaur's UpB vine is something you should think about setting up as Snake is Cyphering, but a Snake player can prevent this by Cyphering vertically from the stage and FFing/air dodge quickly back on. Also, in this situation, if Snake pulls out a grenade when falling back to the stage it may discourage the Ivysaur player to vine whip or approach. Other than that, Razor Leaf can rack up damage off the stage, heh.

Against Ivysaur I encourage not to use yr C4 on the stage simply because of Ivysaur's grab range. It can reach pretty far off the stage which could be trouble for Snake. This way, if yr incapable of recovering with yr Cypher away from the stage and get grabbed, you can C4 yrself and get back on. Costs a bit of percent, but nothing Snake can't dish back out.

Unfortunately, Razor Leaf can only do so much. When Snake isn't holding a grenade he is able to Ftilt Ivysaur's Razor Leaf barrage. If an Ivysaur player spends the whole match Razor Leafing his stamina will drop extremely fast and Snake will have taken little to no damage.

I believe what works best for spacing is Bair > Fsmash/Ftilt, Fsmash > Dtilt, or any variant using those three moves. Fsmash to bait Snake in, and since both D and Ftilt are quick you can get them in before the shielding or approaching Snake has time to tilt you to death. I would suggest Ftilt unless you are getting too predictable since Dtilt may have a little less priority than Ftilt.

Ivysaur's dash attack, Tackle, has great knockback. Use it for mix up off Razor Leaf or moves with lots of end lag.

Out of shield close range, a Nair > bulletseed works wonders on Snake because of his heavy weight. Guaranteed atleast 60%. Otherwise I wouldn't be in the air all that much unless you are pressuring with Razor Leaf because it will encourage plenty of grenade shielding. If yr going to be in the air and are bent on spacing with an aerial, use bair. It's autocancelled and easy to spam and not easy to punish whereas weaving in and out with Fair can be deadly for Ivysaur. The thing is about this is that you can easily perfect shield Ivysaur's fair, but not bair because of its multihit, so keep that in mind.

For Snake, it's very easy to edgeguard Ivysaur. Ftilting Razor Leaf until you get close, or perfect shielding, can lead to you pushing Ivysaur towards the edge or off the edge. Because of Ivysaur's horrible recovery, he wants to stay as far away from the edge as possible. NEVER not UpB onto the stage. Do NOT approach the edge and think you are simply going to GRAB it. Snake can Jab > Ftilt or just Ftilt (first hit) you while you are attempting to the grab the edge and quick hug > bair you until Ivysaur's UpB vine can't reach anymore.

Ivysaur is weak to all of Snake's explosives because of his grass type. It acts as "Fire" on the super effective chart. I don't think Ivysaur should remain at long-range for too much of the match because it will encourage lots of grenade cooking and that's BAAAAD for Ivysaur.

Out of the three, I believe going into the match as Ivysaur first is the most success you'll get at the start.
Cat Fight wrote this up on the Match-up discussion thread that has probably disapeared by now.

Charizard does better than Squirtle, too.
 

Yomi-no-Kuni

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Messages
1,016
Location
Freiburg germany
yeah, i thought a bit about the matchup, and came up with ivysaur as a starter too...
use ivysaur to rack up damage, and if you cannot get the kill with uair or fsmash, change to charizard at high percentages and kill with the stone or some other move
then stall with squirtle (maybe chaingrab him, or uair combo him) and then switch to ivysaur again after a downthrow, or if he recovers with the cypher.
rinse repeat
i´ll try that when i next play against a good snake offline

edit: thank you retro ;)
 

Onxy

Smash Lord
Joined
May 15, 2008
Messages
1,568
I hate that Snake can Ftilt you from across the map. Snake's all over the place because of that stupid "snake dash", not to mention that almost all of his attacks are fire-based, which kills Ivy at low percentages. I can hardly touch Snake with Charizard 'cause I'm constantly being juggled around. I can't space Snake because his Ftilt can hit you from anywhere, and also his aerials. Don't get me started on all of his 126,642,648,232 projectiles. I don't care what anyone says, that character is broken out the @$$.

I don't have much to say because I get owned too much by Snake, and I couldn't tell if the Snake user was better than me or not, considering that your character in this game means more than your skill.

I would love to keep Snake in the air the most, but it isn't easy because of the broken airdodge in this game.
 

Kemious

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 30, 2007
Messages
77
Location
Binghamton
I agree that Ivy is the best match up. He has all the tools necessary to actually damage and kill snake.

The other two I have noticed actually swap rolls. Charizard actually has an easy time damaging snake. Flamethrowers take care of mortar slidders, Campers and Grenade spammers. Rock smash isnt so useful in this match up and Grab release into second grab into jab combo or ftilt is pretty damaging. However you really cant execute your kill moves here. Hitting with dtilt or filt sweet spot is unlikely,bthrow dthrow upsmash all require and insane amount of damge to kill the guy. Fly is risky when you know theyre gonna tilt and Rocksmash is unlikely to hit most of the time. You can him with dair if your luck enough to have him rising from below but its not every time.

Squirtle oddly enough actually has an easy time getting the kill hit. When I say this I mean killing pure and simple. All aerials seem to hit easy enough once you have him aerially bounded hes yours for the kill. getting a grab kill isnt to difficult if you use water gun as a momentum killer or do a sudden switch from aerials to grabs. But once you kill
your better of goingto Ivy if your damage level isnt to high. Cause its unlikely your gonna get as second kill unless you so much better than them. or you can get a gimp
 

Retro Gaming

Black and White Thinking
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
1,088
Location
Iowa City, IA
I disagree about Charizard having difficulty killing because of Snake's recovery. I love it when he's forced to Cypher since it's as simple as jumping out and swatting him with Bair or spiking him into oblivion and taking like 6% from Cypher. Either way, Charizard and Ivysaur have a very easy time forcing him to detonate himself or else take a death grab.

I 'dunknow, I don't really think Snake is as bad as some other characters. The projectiles are annoying but Razor Leaf and Flamethrower both clank grenades during the initial toss and destroy any Dsmashes that are lying about.
 

Fearmy

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
563
Squirtle can handle a lot of characters. just be more Dodgy. Squirtle actually does pretty good against MK, or atleast mine does. Easiest Way to kill a MK is by a grab, and Squirtle has a nice D-throw waiting for him
 

Retro Gaming

Black and White Thinking
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
1,088
Location
Iowa City, IA
Which kills at least ten percent sooner, I might add. =D

But really, we just say bad things about Squirtle because he's not as cool as the other two. I'm starting to like him a little more now. He's still really bad versus Marth, DK, Dedede, Mr. Game & Watch, and basically every character with stregnth and range. .-.

Good thing he does something against Metaknight, though.
 

johnmcgerber

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 21, 2007
Messages
73
Cat Fight wrote this up on the Match-up discussion thread that has probably disapeared by now.

Charizard does better than Squirtle, too.
NAH i fell that squartle does wayyy beter than charizar because squartle can defend agaisnt snakes moveset because of his speed and his withdraw.there other reasons why but i cant remember them lol
 

PkTrainerCris

Smash Ace
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
762
Location
colombia
I think that charizard does better than squirtle, because he is more resistant to snakes kill attacks, and also can kill snake fairly easily, something that my squirtle at least just cant do. Ivy is the best of th three, he has good range, bullet seed, and has a good fight overall, its just that it may be hard to land the killing blow, but you can change to zard to kill, but fighting against a low percent snake may be a hard fight for our favorite dragon, so watch out
 

Onxy

Smash Lord
Joined
May 15, 2008
Messages
1,568
Zard gets owned harder than Squirtle if I'm right.
 
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