NEED MOD APPROVAL: A proposal to end the Melee vs Brawl Debate Thread Spam

[feardragon64]

As I'm sure everyone is aware, the brawl forums have been spammed repeatedly with Brawl vs. Melee threads. Some of them describe in depth, why Brawl is an unplayable game competitively. Some of them attempt to redeem it's value as a game with a different play style. Well, I hope I can speak for MOST of the community in saying, enough is enough. As half of the responses in those threads say quite sarcastically, "lookie here, a NEW opinion, just like everyone else's." Can we please stop the complaining? I understand the value in determining whether or not Brawl can be played competitively, but I know I can't be the only one being tired of sorting through these threads where it almost becomes flame wars or spam because there are 50 other threads with the exact same idea. The moderators have been attempting to close down the worser of the threads, but it's not helping that we KEEP MAKING NEW ONES!

So I propose one or more of the following plan of action:


A NEW forum section be made so that everyone who wants to argue their hearts out about Brawl Vs. Melee can spam to their hearts content and rant to everyone on why they're incompetent for taking a side. By doing this, users will have no excuses for posting this in the Brawl tactical thread(how is this a tactical topic in any way, shape, or form?) can people can actually focus their attention and time on the USEFUL threads that actually involve a discovery or intelligent discussion of sort.
Let me repeat something I said earlier for clarification. I have no problem with people intelligently discussing brawl's competitiveness, but for the love of smash, stop bringing in melee. If you keep complaining that Brawl is horrible, then don't go through the brawl forums. If you feel like you're masculinity(or femininity for the females on the forum) has been challenged when someone creates a "Brawl sucks" thread and feel the need to defend yourself for playing it, relax and DON'T CLICK ON IT. Let the moderators handle it if it's truly spam. The purpose for my proposal is to clear up forum space from unwanted spam that only results in hate.

My proposal also has the option of making a thread in the "debate" forum so if people REALLY want to argue about it, they can do it in the debate forum where hopefully it can be intelligent and civilized conversation, as it usually is in there.

Now there is a thread discussing the guidlines for making threads on forums that states that if a forum doesn't leave room for response, it's not a good thread. So instead of posting "you're a *******," or a 3 character response saying "qft" respond on what YOU think SHOULD be done about the problem, or if ANYTHING should be done about the problem. If not, then why not? Clearly there are intelligent beings among smashboards or the smash community wouldn't have been able to succeed has it has. Moderators, I hope you take the time to respond to this as well, describing why or why not this idea would work(or any idea along these lines).

Thanks for reading the entire thing if you got to this point. If you didn't actually read the entire thing and skipped to the end, shame on you. :embarrass

Edit: For those who might not think there is a problem, here is my evidence. For the record, I didn't even go to the second page. And this is on just two of the forum pages:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167082
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167139
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=166998
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167042
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=166990
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=149606
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=166398
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=166862

Note that some of those topics weren't even INTENDED to become a Brawl vs. Melee debate(such as the "where do I start on playing Brawl competitively" thread). I think something really needs to be done.

Edit 2: I just remembered that there was a thread for all of these rants about brawl. Why do people keep making new threads other than actually wanting to have an intellectual discussion rather than a rant?(which is where the whole new forum section comes in).
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=145377

 

[frankisvital]

I fully support this idea. These arguments are old and played out, and the debate hasn't seen any intelligent and/or fresh opinion in a long time. Clutter is clutter, and it deserves to be dealt with as such, no matter who posts it.

 

[Iwan]

Fully agreed with both of the above posts. Complaining about the same, dried out, over-stated issues is useless. It won't help brawl progress forward, and it won't solve any issues the game has.

Either you think it's competitive or you don't, and that's really, super cool....but unless it's constructive, lets just start keeping it to ourselves.

But i agree, this debate is getting old and rather useless.

 

[Andromeda]

Yeah, the discussion Melee vs Brawl has gone too far, lasted too long and has locked itdelf in a position where everyone comes with the same arguments. But I think that in time, the discussion will just die by itself, even if it may take a long time. I don't think it helps trying to rush it. It simply won't stop that easily.

 

[frankisvital]

It's fully possible to stop with the right enforcement. I realize the mods have enough on their plates already, but this has gotten ridiculous and really does need to be dealt with. It's a poison to the forums and needs to be treated as such.

Mods aren't the only ones who need to address this problem. Regular members need to just ignore the threads and allow them to die, no matter what side they're on or how incredibly ******** some of the posters may be.

 

[Clear171]

you should just let the people vent. melee was a great game and people need time to adjust to change. over time it will probably work itself out.

 

[Cookiez]

Actually, a Brawl Vs. Melee subforum would be absolutely awsome. Not that I believe it's neccessary, however.

 

[Iwan]

Actually, a Brawl Vs. Melee subforum would be absolutely awsome. Not that I believe it's neccessary, however.

EXACTLY. A "Brawl Vs. Melee debate" forum would be pretty nice....

Good idea? lol, where you at mods.

 

[SmashBro99]

Very good idea.

I'm tired of reading kids complain in the Brawl forum.

 

[captainfalconmute]

Melee vs Brawl has indeed gone way too far

 

[DragonBlade]

I don't think a Melee vs. Brawl subforum would be enough. I could not mention Melee at all, and start a thread criticizing Brawl in the Brawl forums, but someone will eventually respond with "dis iz nawt melee 2.0" or something similar and turn it into a Melee versus Brawl thread. I think the problem really starts with the difference in Competitive vs. Casual expectations that people have. If we move they Melee vs. Brawl debate to a subforum, people will just find other things to argue about. I think it would be more effective to make casual and competitive subforums instead. That's ultimately the root of the problem, imo.

 

[feardragon64]

I'm glad I'm getting positive responses(even when clear171 disagreed, he provided some reasoning for it). Anyways just to answer a few posts.

Andromeda, Frank, & Clear: I wholeheartedly agree that regular members need to take action as well! We can't just make life hell for the mods or they won't WANT to clean up the few threads that are created. In other words, people need to stop spamming as you said. But I do think that(which they are already doing but could do more effectively with some official notice of it) increased attention and warnings for responding to these spam threads could help(after a clear notice not to respond to these has been given of course).

Cookiez: I honestly don't think it's "necessary" either. People could just ignore the threads, live and let live, etc. But I think it would be beneficial to do something about the problem because people won't feel so cluttered. When I go through forums, I feel the need to look at every single new topic(in the sections I normally read anyways), and read all the new posts. Obviously I have full control to not read the posts that are spam, but who knows: there might be some hidden knowledge or important notice given that I would never have known about before if I didn't. I do it because I pursue knowledge. However, often times I feel like it's a CHORE to do so because of all the pointless brawl vs. melee spam. Again, I understand it's fully in my control, but this promotes a system where desiring to learn, improve, etc. is put down by burdening those who like to be thorough with excess spam. (note, I know this is merely because the moderators are already overwhelmed and working hard so I don't actually blame them for this).

Dragonblade: Unfortunatly, it's the truth. As I edited into my first post, a discussion about, "how to start playing brawl competitively" was turned into one of these spam threads. I hope that this plan will do a few things though:
1) Redirect efforts about complaining about brawl/melee to an entirely different area(thereby cutting back on the unwanted spam)
2) Give people the feeling that posting reasons why brawl>melee or melee>brawl is WRONG because it is a misplaced comment and belongs in another section.
3) Ease the moderator's job a bit. That much less spam by simply creating a sub-forum makes life that much more enjoyable =]

But yes dragonblade, we would need some additional effort from mods to start enforcing this idea. That is why I really want a moderator's response to this to see if they are willing to do so.(I understand it'll be more work at first and that the moderators have lives beyond smashboards, but I believe in the end it will result in less work in the long term =]).

Keep the responses coming guys.

 

[DragonBlade]

Well, I made a thread suggesting to have casual and competitive subforums before, and it was locked with no response. Then again, I also made a thread about how there would only be 5 neutral stages, and it got locked for being "narrow minded", and a thread about random tripping long before it was common knowledge and it was also locked. Maybe you will have better luck.

 

[Jaxx Raxor]

A new Brawl vs Melee subforum should be made if it's such an popular and prevalent topic.

 

[Fletch]

I don't think a Melee vs. Brawl subforum would be enough. I could not mention Melee at all, and start a thread criticizing Brawl in the Brawl forums, but someone will eventually respond with "dis iz nawt melee 2.0" or something similar and turn it into a Melee versus Brawl thread. I think the problem really starts with the difference in Competitive vs. Casual expectations that people have. If we move they Melee vs. Brawl debate to a subforum, people will just find other things to argue about. I think it would be more effective to make casual and competitive subforums instead. That's ultimately the root of the problem, imo.

While I think this is more the root of the problem, I think that a majority of the actual "casual" players do not consider themselves as such, and will ultimately pour into the wrong boards anyways.

 

[DragonBlade]

While I think this is more the root of the problem, I think that a majority of the actual "casual" players do not consider themselves as such, and will ultimately poor into the wrong boards anyways.

That's probably true, but if there were different subforums, different standards could be enforced on each one without censoring either side's opinions.

 

[Egret]

It's not spam and it's important that it's discussed as much as possible. I for one welcome our new brawl vs melee debate thread overlords. It is the biggest issue facing the competetive community and there's not much to say about the game in a competetive sense that isn't comparing it unfavorably (and in a few cases favorably) to melee, so while "general brawl discussion" certainly deals with more than competitive brawl this particular debate should be encouraged for its importance to competeitve smash which is a major part of these forums.

Maybe not actually

 

[DragonBlade]

Its not that the discussion isn't important, but I really wouldn't call it whats going on much of a discussion (in most cases). Its usually the same arguments over and over again with the same replies, and eventually some insults, more offended people, etc.

 

[Demon Kirby]

It's not spam and it's important that it's discussed as much as possible.

It makes me want to hurt someone.

Yes I have anger issues.

 

[iredecent]

hmm and its about to happen with this thread. i mean look at the discussion already.

 

[Clear171]

If anything, I just think that the person who starts a thread should have the option of deleting any comments that deviate too much from what the original thread was intended for. I could definately sympathize with someone who started a thread wanting to know how to begin playing professionally, and having it turn into an arguement that has nothing do do with their question. But i think that if a comment gets removed from a forum in such a manner, the poster should not be punished if they didn't violate any rules.

 

[feardragon64]

If anything, I just think that the person who starts a thread should have the option of deleting any comments that deviate too much from what the original thread was intended for. I could definately sympathize with someone who started a thread wanting to know how to begin playing professionally, and having it turn into an arguement that has nothing do do with their question. But i think that if a comment gets removed from a forum in such a manner, the poster should not be punished if they didn't violate any rules.

It's a nice idea, but this gives too much power to the creater of the thread. While a scenario doesn't pop into my mind at the moment, I'm sure people would find some way to abuse this power(I mean, our entire professional community revolves around exploiting), so I think this would result in more problems, being able to delete anything that the original poster didn't like.

And as dragonblade clarified, I don't want to impose the idea that it's not an important discussion. I'm merely stating that it's not in the right place and that most of the arguments have been made. It's also encouraging people from steering off topic by changing the subject. Also, note that I approve of discussion between the competitiveness of each, but not the comparison of which is "better." Brawl should not be compared to melee because it is not the same game as melee. The same way it's pointless to argue between if it's better to play Counterstrike 1.6 or Source, they should be considered individual games and thought of individually for their competitive abilities, not in comparison to each other.

 

[feardragon64]

Bump for justice(sorry for double post).

I still need more responses on this and a mod to comment on the idea. =[

 

[frankisvital]

Re-bump for a good idea.

 

[DeliciousCake]

I think the only logical solution is for a battle between the rosters of both games, each using their own respective physics engine. Whoever wins takes it all. Now go make it happen.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

I'd rather see the debates end, because this is how they usually turn out:

Player A: It's a proven fact that Melee is the better game.
Player B: Brawl is the better game. Player A is a moron.
Player C: Player B is a moron because he thinks Player A is a moron.
Player D: Player C is a moron because he joined in 2008.
Player E: Player A is a moron, because any game with King Dedede in it is a better game.
Player F: Player E is a moron, he only beat me because he could chaingrab, if he was playing Melee, it takes more skill to chaingrab.

And so on... Notice how this goes nowhere.

But if you do have to have the topics, there should be a new section of the board for them. I don't like to have to sift through 10000 topics of "OMG Brawl sucks!" and "OMG Melee sucks!" to find a topic with useful information that ends up being buried under a pile of ****....

 

[Best101]

It's the Nintendo Nsider forums all over again lol

 

[feardragon64]

I'd rather see the debates end, because this is how they usually turn out:

Player A: It's a proven fact that Melee is the better game.
Player B: Brawl is the better game. Player A is a moron.
Player C: Player B is a moron because he thinks Player A is a moron.
Player D: Player C is a moron because he joined in 2008.
Player E: Player A is a moron, because any game with King Dedede in it is a better game.
Player F: Player E is a moron, he only beat me because he could chaingrab, if he was playing Melee, it takes more skill to chaingrab.

And so on... Notice how this goes nowhere.

But if you do have to have the topics, there should be a new section of the board for them. I don't like to have to sift through 10000 topics of "OMG Brawl sucks!" and "OMG Melee sucks!" to find a topic with useful information that ends up being buried under a pile of ****....

This expresses my feelings about those threads to the teeth. It doesn't matter if you like the ideas or not, the fact is that the dicussions don't GO anywhere.
And that's exactly what I wish would happen. Let everyone who wants to argue about it do it in an area where not EVERYONE has to shift through it to get to threads they want to read. I could easily make an argument to say that discussions involving melee in anyway do not belong in the brawl forums, and vice versa. So why not make an indivual thread/forum for all of those complaints >>...not to mention half the time it's like after 4 pages, people just post after reading the first and/or last page. This only INCREASES repitition so it eventually becomes:


Player A: It's a proven fact that Melee is the better game.
Player B: Brawl is the better game. Player A is a moron.
Player C: Player B is a moron because he thinks Player A is a moron.
Player D: Player C is a moron because he joined in 2008.
Player E: Player A is a moron, because any game with King Dedede in it is a better game.
Player F: Player E is a moron, he only beat me because he could chaingrab, if he was playing Melee, it takes more skill to chaingrab.
....
Player R: Brawl is the better game. Player A is a moron.
Player S: Player B is a moron because he thinks Player A is a moron.
Player T: Player C is a moron because he joined in 2008.
Player U: Player A is a moron, because any game with King Dedede in it is a better game.
Player V: Player E is a moron, he only beat me because he could chaingrab, if he was playing Melee, it takes more skill to chaingrab.

etc...etc..etc...It doesn't go anywhere =[

But anyways, bump again because I really feel like this thread hasn't gotten much NEGATIVE feedback, so I'm assuming people just haven't SEEN it >>

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

you should just let the people vent. melee was a great game and people need time to adjust to change. over time it will probably work itself out.

even if people just need time to vent it out if a sub forum is made then all the people who dont need to vent it out dont have to put up with it a sub forum cant hurt only help if u ask me

 

[Clear171]

After reading around the general thread more, I changed my mind. There are at least three active thread debating which game is better, they all virtually say the same things, and sadly, most of them are depressing. Considering that there are so many and they all are so similiar, I think they do deserve their own subforum.

 

[Pink Reaper]

You know what would have worked better than this thread? A PM >_>

 

[mzink*]

i think people should be free to discuss and work through the melee brawl thing and it doesnt really bother me how many times i see threads like this. everyones opinion deserves to be heard even if its to simply bash one simple aspect of the game. though i do understand what you mean about the spamming, however the importance of the good debates outweighs the minorly irritating brawl or melee sucks spam.

however i dont see an issue with having a separate forum for it so sure why not? if it'll satisfy both the people that wish to discuss it and the people that dont wish to see the same threads over and over then sounds like a good idea to me.

 

[feardragon64]

Pink: Heh, ya I'm starting to realize how much better a PM would have worked >> LOL. But at least now I can show that people support the idea >>

mzinkk9: I think generally we're on the same side of the issue. If only pro's were allowed to voice their opinions, smashboards would only allow people to create an account on invite and the community would be so much smaller. I think that would just end up being worse for the community unless done properly(properly done via BRoomers). But yes, everyone should have a chance to voice their opinion. It's not entirely spam. People end up making good points. I just feel that too much of it RESULTS in spam to have in THIS section of the forum. And the thing is, it's not even JUST the general brawl discussion. It's even the tactical discussion. I can sort of understand the general brawl discussion section having it, but all the threads there seem to result in spam. Then you have the tactical dicussion threads that get a little bit further, but are still out of place and STILL result in spam....

I'm not suggesting to silence anyone's voices. Just to move them so people who want to hear them can hear them, but people who don't, don't have to >> =]

 

[Kirby King]

You know what would have worked better than this thread? A PM >_>

For serious. The mods who really read this room can't set up a new subforum, and the people like me who can are too strapped for time to read through the Brawl rooms thread by thread.

Anyway, it's an idea, but I don't know how prevalent the issue really is. Could the issue just be addressed by confining things to a single Brawl vs. Melee thread? If the discussion really is as repetitive as you all seem to think it is, making an entire room for the discussion would be going in the wrong direction--that's supposed to let the discussion expand, not just get it out of the way. If it's taking up space but being repetitive, the answer is just to make sure people keep it to a thread (or maybe more, if it's warranted).

Obviously that will require some help from mods to make sure new threads don't spawn up, but in principle, does that sound like it would address things?

EDIT: Not to mention, making a new room will probably intensify the debate, which might not be a good thing in the long run.

 

[Valdens]

I support this notion.

 

[-Linko-]

For serious. The mods who really read this room can't set up a new subforum, and the people like me who can are too strapped for time to read through the Brawl rooms thread by thread.

Anyway, it's an idea, but I don't know how prevalent the issue really is. Could the issue just be addressed by confining things to a single Brawl vs. Melee thread? If the discussion really is as repetitive as you all seem to think it is, making an entire room for the discussion would be going in the wrong direction--that's supposed to let the discussion expand, not just get it out of the way. If it's taking up space but being repetitive, the answer is just to make sure people keep it to a thread (or maybe more, if it's warranted).

Obviously that will require some help from mods to make sure new threads don't spawn up, but in principle, does that sound like it would address things?

EDIT: Not to mention, making a new room will probably intensify the debate, which might not be a good thing in the long run.

Then make an "Official Complaint threa..." well, nevermind.

Then lock all Melee vs. Brawl threads, make an "Official Melee vs Brawl thread" and tell people to stick the f*ck up with that thread.

But I think the "Melee vs Brawl" subforum would really help. Do you know http://www.smogon.com, the Pokémon equivalent of Smashboards? On that forum, they have a subforum called "Firebolt Development Lab", subtitled "Keep flames and stupidity here", and all the other subforums are completely free of that ****. (Well, except the typical "LOL, Smashwavedazhing/PokémonCloning is t3h H4XXX and thou shalln't uze it FTW!1!" n00bish thread that gets closed in ten minutes)

 

[mzink*]

i think it is a big enough subject that it could have its own forum and that people would be more drawn to put their posts there rather than if it was just its own thread, as ive seen certain threads like that ignored. i dont think its all just repetitive, the debate does seem to evolve and grow over time the longer brawl is out. i personally enjoy reading good debates but some people get irritated by them and this often results in flame and spam. maybe by giving it its own forum the user then must choose to view the threads, hopefully decreasing the amount of people irritated at seeing the same argument.

EDIT: Not to mention, making a new room will probably intensify the debate, which might not be a good thing in the long run.

i see what you are saying but im not sure if it would actually have that big of an effect.

 

[Bowser King]

For serious. The mods who really read this room can't set up a new subforum, and the people like me who can are too strapped for time to read through the Brawl rooms thread by thread.

Anyway, it's an idea, but I don't know how prevalent the issue really is. Could the issue just be addressed by confining things to a single Brawl vs. Melee thread? If the discussion really is as repetitive as you all seem to think it is, making an entire room for the discussion would be going in the wrong direction--that's supposed to let the discussion expand, not just get it out of the way. If it's taking up space but being repetitive, the answer is just to make sure people keep it to a thread (or maybe more, if it's warranted).

Obviously that will require some help from mods to make sure new threads don't spawn up, but in principle, does that sound like it would address things?

EDIT: Not to mention, making a new room will probably intensify the debate, which might not be a good thing in the long run.

There are a lot of sub-forums that IMO shouldnt have been made. This is a issue that is like a virus (yes it has caught on to me to, all this talk makes me feel like I need to choose a better game which I shouldnt have to because there both great games). It has spanned out beyond the melee vs brawl debates and has reached into casual threads. If a sub-forum is made people who feel the need to choose a better game can discuss there opinions (hopefully it will also allow for smarter debates).

You might think that for a sub-forum you will need multiple threads talking about diffrent things while the brawl vs melee room would only have continuses remakes of the same idea. If you belive that is true make a offical thread that would be sticked and from then on all debate threads would be locked. Thats just my thoughts on this all.

 

[leafgreen386]

The problem with making a single topic for the melee vs brawl debate is that posts like alphazealot's or scar's would get completely ignored, and brushed by in mere moments from when they were posted, when they really do deserve to actually be seen. Although many threads about the topic do eventually degenerate into the same thing over and over again, well thought out posts shouldn't just be ignored, and with a single big thread, they would be.

 

[frankisvital]

The problem with making a single topic for the melee vs brawl debate is that posts like alphazealot's or scar's would get completely ignored, and brushed by in mere moments from when they were posted, when they really do deserve to actually be seen. Although many threads about the topic do eventually degenerate into the same thing over and over again, well thought out posts shouldn't just be ignored, and with a single big thread, they would be.

What if, in the large thread, there were links to the most well-thought out posts, along with a quick summation for easy browsing? The more notable posts that have already been made could easily be copied in, and their original threads could be closed to free up space and keep down spamming/flaming (which they either already have or invariably will degrade into, no matter who started them).