need ness help

[pupu_brawler]

ive played brawl for a few months now and ive gotten the hang of a few basic things with ness

and now i need some new things to get better and i need some advice on what moves i should and shouldnt use.

 

[kennypu]

Welcome to the ness boards x].
anyways, to start off, go familiarize yourself with ness's basics with ref's guide. Once you feel pretty comfortable, and you feel you know ness's moves front and back, go check out EB 360s PK Cross guide, that'll teach you some essential ATs, most notably, stutterstepping, pivots, short hops, fast falling, etc. Don't worry too much about the PK Fire techniques until you get comfortable with ness, they're pretty tricky.
Most importantly, go watch the videos posted in the video thread here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=140239
watching other good ness players will definitely improve yours if you try to copy. Good luck x]

 

[AvariceX]

Fair is your bread. Dair is your butter. You can have bread without butter but it's not very good, but butter without bread is just bad (mix them up, use fair more often...usually). Nair is the tazer you keep concealed walking down a dark alley for when someone won't get off your nuts.

^ Agree with most of that except there is one PK Fire technique you need to learn and that is pivot PK-Fire (it's not hard, just press B right before pressing the analog in the opposite direction you're facing).

 

[xoxokev]

do you have a video of yourself playing? (against someone of the same skill level/better) a video would be helpful for us to see what you are doing right and what you need to improve on

 

[kennypu]

do you have a video of yourself playing? (against someone of the same skill level/better) a video would be helpful for us to see what you are doing right and what you need to improve on

very true, that will allow us to help you a lot better. make sure you post it in the video critique thread and not here though, or you might get yelled at. lolol

I don't know what level you are at, but most people starting out ness like to pkt2 a lot (pkt2 is the pk thunder tackle, where you hit the pk thunder to yourself). If you want to get better, try not to use that at all, maybe once or twice during a match just for surprises.

 

[Uffe]

Yes! Let me see a video so that I may crush your hopes and dreams! Not really. That'd be messed up. Anyway, a video would be great! Someone awhile ago came to me and asked me, "Uffe, could you teach me how to use Ness better?" I told him that I don't have a working Wii, but I can help him out with my experiences. By the way, welcome to the Ness boards. We love having new members here. And I like to smile a lot.

 

[PMKNG]

most I've ever seen you smile uffe, most I've ever seen you smile....



Pupu, if you know, it may also help if you could describe what playstyle you emphasize more, as in offense, defense, whether you use a lot of pkfire, or pkt, or just aerials. (Not that you shouldnt mix these up in a match, but it may help us if we know which you already are more familiar with)

 

[pupu_brawler]

thanx guys for the help and i looked at the pk cross guide and it really helped a lot.

ill probably post a video up soon if i can find my parents camera, so youll have to wait for that.
im pretty sure i play a lot with my aerials and grabs.

 

[1337-Zero]

Just my own input:

I noticed you mentioned what moves you should/shouldn't use. You should use ALL of Ness's moves. They all have useful applications. Some moves, like f-tilt and u-throw, are less useful than others so you should use them less often, but don't forget that you have these moves.

I'll give you more once I see the video you plan to upload. From what you posted you seem to already understand the basics of playing Ness.

 

[Uffe]

Just a quick rundown.

PK Thunder
Use this at a distance and on characters who are in the air or characters that are trying to come back. But know that doing this against a returning opponent such as Pit can easily fire their arrows at you as a way to return. If they're above you, this is good for juggling them around. If the decide to be smart and airdodge, go ahead and tailwhip with your PK Thunder. Same can be applied on returning opponents.

PK Fire
Same thing. Use this at a distance and don't always use it to where it becomes predictable. Learn how to Pivot PK Fire, too, if you haven't already. Useful on a character like Marth. Now I'm not hating on Marth because I do use him, but here's a thought. Apparently some Marth's like to stay in that PK Fire and use their Counter.

Because PK Fire makes Ness move forward slightly, doing that a lot will make Ness get hit eventually. That's where the useful Pivot PKF comes in. Also, don't just do these on the ground. Use them in the air or add it to an attack that'll catch your opponent off guard.

PK Flash
This is good for edge guarding. Using this tactic on opponents with good recoveries is not a good idea. This also might not work on characters with tether recovery. Know which characters have good recoveries and know which ones that have decent recoveries. There's a little trick I like doing every now and then, but I'll let you know via PM if you want to know about it. It's probably already basic knowledge to Ness mains, though.

Recovery
You know how to recover, but some people are bias and think that Ness is easy to gimp. Show them that they're wrong. I don't think I need to go into detail with this one since if you are using Ness, you should know how to recover. If you want some tricks, just PM me.

 

[AvariceX]

Some moves, like f-tilt and u-throw, are less useful than others so you should use them less often

What? K I'll stop using Ness' best low % throw....or maybe you meant d-throw?

The moves you'll use least often are probably (in no real order) ftilt, dtilt, dthrow, PK Flash, and PSI Magnet; but as mentioned they are all still useful and you need to know when to make use of every move.

Also after the OiN tourney yesterday I realized Ness' biggest 2 weaknesses and when I can get a good picture to show them I will (and neither of them have anything to do with recovery...or even PKT for that matter).

 

[Uffe]

I hope he meant d-throw. That attack only does 9% while his others do about 10-11%. F-tilt actually isn't bad, either.

 

[pupu_brawler]

thanx for the xtra help guys but d-throw can be useful because i use it to combo into a fair.

 

[Dajayman]

An opponent can DI away from the dthrow and avoid the fair with a dodge or a defending aerial, it's not a combo.

 

[AvariceX]

Never rely on d-throw to combo into anything (except Snake's dsmash mine on a platform above you.....hi Ally ). Dajayman speaks the truth, you will get punished if they just DI away from you.

 

[1337-Zero]

Lulz, I knew people were gonna defend those moves when I mentioned them. *sigh*

Okay, forgive me for having my own playstyle. I've always used d-throw wayyy more than u-throw. I'm aware that d-throw is the weakest throw damage-wise. I still use it more than u-throw, regardless of whether or not it ALWAYS combos into something (seriously, has anyone here heard of pivot pk-fire?).

I find it funny that nowhere in my post do I say d-throw should be used, yet you're acting like I said it was his best throw (which I've always believed is his f-throw. Kill me for being different).

Nowhere did I say those moves were bad. I was just saying some moves (like F-air or N-air) are more useful. The whole point of my post was that ALL of his moves are useful. ALL OF THEM!!! (head asplodes)

Forgive me for spoiling your topic with my rant pupu_brawler. I was only trying to tell you to mix up your playstyle, but I guess there's only one way to play Ness. My bad.

(We play a low teir character for gosh sakes. Play the same way, lose the same way. Mix it up or your dead. I use PSI Magnet more than u-throw BTW)

Don't mean to flame, sorry if someone was offended

 

[pupu_brawler]

well a lot of the time that does happen which whenever i play usually or always leads into another fair or a bair

 

[pupu_brawler]

An opponent can DI away from the dthrow and avoid the fair with a dodge or a defending aerial, it's not a combo.

Never rely on d-throw to combo into anything (except Snake's dsmash mine on a platform above you.....hi Ally ). Dajayman speaks the truth, you will get punished if they just DI away from you.

usually when i play that happens, but it usually or always leads into either another fair or a bair.

 

[pupu_brawler]

Lulz, I knew people were gonna defend those moves when I mentioned them. *sigh*

Okay, forgive me for having my own playstyle. I've always used d-throw wayyy more than u-throw. I'm aware that d-throw is the weakest throw damage-wise. I still use it more than u-throw, regardless of whether or not it ALWAYS combos into something (seriously, has anyone here heard of pivot pk-fire?).

I find it funny that nowhere in my post do I say d-throw should be used, yet you're acting like I said it was his best throw (which I've always believed is his f-throw. Kill me for being different).

Nowhere did I say those moves were bad. I was just saying some moves (like F-air or N-air) are more useful. The whole point of my post was that ALL of his moves are useful. ALL OF THEM!!! (head asplodes)

Forgive me for spoiling your topic with my rant pupu_brawler. I was only trying to tell you to mix up your playstyle, but I guess there's only one way to play Ness. My bad.

(We play a low teir character for gosh sakes. Play the same way, lose the same way. Mix it up or your dead. I use PSI Magnet more than u-throw BTW)

Don't mean to flame, sorry if someone was offended

sry to make it seem lik i dont lik your playing style. it is good and u r right that i should mix up my playstyle.

so yet again sorry if i make it seem like u spoiled something.

 

[1337-Zero]

sry to make it seem lik i dont lik your playing style. it is good and u r right that i should mix up my playstyle.

so yet again sorry if i make it seem like u spoiled something.

Whoops, no I was talking about Avarice, I'm here to help you

EB360 thinks d-throw is good too, and he's really good.

Again, none of that was directed at you. Sorry if you thought that

EDIT: *sigh* I guess I've learned why your not supposed to rant. You're a good guy pupu, I'm looking forward to seeing you get better.

I never thought u-throw was that good. I guess I should try it out more often...

 

[xoxokev]

Don't be predictable. Please use and love all of Ness' moves equally.

 

[NintenJoe]

Don't be predictable. Please use and love all of Ness' moves equally.

I can never love PK Flash. Ever.

 

[xoxokev]

I can never love PK Flash. Ever.

its a good edge guard. it really screws with people's recovery, sometimes they get so scared they completely miss the ledge. and in the off chance that you do land it... they feel really stupid

 

[kennypu]

its a good edge guard. it really screws with people's recovery, sometimes they get so scared they completely miss the ledge. and in the off chance that you do land it... they feel really stupid

he speaks the truth

 

[Levitas]

I disagree, I really do think PK flash is almost always a bad call.

 

[Uffe]

PK Flash is probably only best used against opponents who have decent recovery. Of course I have my own tricks up my sleeve for PK Flash, but we will not discuss it here for it is good. But other than that, you're probably better off using PK Thunder and maybe tailwhipping your opponents when they're off the stage or above the stage or being completely stubborn to get close to you.

 

[Dajayman]

I have gimped many recoveries with PK Flash scaring them away from the ledge, I think this works extremely well in tournaments since it gives that extra scare. PK Flash is easily the scariest move in the game. Though this means sh*t if you are playing someone who can think clearly during pressure since it so easy to avoid. Personally I use pkt 95% of the time when I can use either, but that other 5% when I use PK Flash is when I just feel like throwing it out there and seeing what happens.

Again, it's good to mix up your moves. Throw PK Flash out there every once in a while.

 

[AvariceX]

The beauty in PK Flash comes from controlling how your opponent will recover. Don't even try to hit with it; just move it in such a way that your opponent will be forced (or be mindgamed) to recover in a spot where they are easily punished. This weekend at OiN even KingAce (one of Canada's top players) fell right into the tipper fsmash I had ready for him after avoiding my PK Flash that I wasn't trying to hit with anyway. I don't even know if he realized I had the whole scenario planned out before I even started the PK Flash. He was far from the only player who fell for this trick on Saturday.

 

[1337-Zero]

I'm pretty sure the only people who never use PK Flash are the ones who ALWAYS charge it all the way. It's not half bad as a surprise explosion to throw off someone's timing.

I have a question for the people who supported PK Flash as an edge guard. Do you ever actually expect it to hit? Like Dajayman said, it's the scariest thing out there. I usually use it JUST to scare people. The flash actually making contact is just a nice little extra if they get too scared. Oh, and there's nothing wrong with expecting it to hit, I was just wondering if we had the same mentality.

 

[CarVac]

I'm not sure: Is there any lag after releasing the button and the hitbox appearing? How long is it?

 

[Eagleye893]

@carvac: it takes a little while for the attack to go off, but it isn't that big of a deal once you get used to it. It's not a whole lot of time, but i have no way of saying for sure, but a few frames would be my estimate, not anywhere near a full second.

PK flash can help... a lot. I landed 3 uncharged pkflashes in a row during one match against someone. it was awesome.

 

[Levitas]

A full second is about the amount of startup of a falcon punch. iirc it's somewhere between 1/6 and 1/3 of a second.

And even if you aim to zone, I really think it isn't a good move. Even if you don't take the full time to charge, it's still inefficient to use and the dair, nair, or PKT probably could do a better job unless you somehow expect to land it or kill with it.

 

[1337-Zero]

I have a feeling all of us are going to learn more from this thread than pupu will. So many varied opinions...

PK Flash works for some people, but not for others. For instance, some people have trouble with GaW, but I have an easy time. The Pika vs. Ness matchup is 50/50, but I'm horrible at fighting him. The point is, depending on who we fight and how you play, different moves can be more useful to certain players. If you fight someone who knows how to deal with all of Ness's moves except for PK Flash, you'll be glad you had practice using it, no? Try PK Flash out for yourself pupu_brawler and see if it works for you.

Just a final note: I'd be more likely to listen to the people who say PK Flash is a good move, because they've obviously found ways to make it useful, even if those ways are situational. Those who say it's a bad move might not have been using it at the right times, or just ignored it thinking a different move would always be better.

This kind of debate is just what these boards needed. Thanks pupu!

 

[Dajayman]

I'm going to start using more mindgames with fully charged PK Flash so it actually hits. I had this amazing idea to startup PK Flash later than normal so that the opponent makes it to the ledge and their invincibility frames end by the time PK Flash gets there and explodes.

I was inspired by this idea when I noticed people almost always stay on the ledge and try to wait out their invincibilty and my PK Flash wouldn't hurt them. Again this involes the scare factor since most people won't want to leave the ledge if they see PK Flash coming at them. Again though, a smart and calm player can realize that they can do a getup attack/roll from the ledge for more invincibilty to avoid PK Flash (although it could still possibly hit during those first few frames of vulnerabilty during every off-the-ledge action).

Anyone else got any other flashy (lol, pun) PK Flash mindgames? It certainly has some mindgame potential. Just remember that it is the LAST move anyone wants to get hit by.

 

[1337-Zero]

Well, if I realize that I've charged PK Flash for too long, I move it back to Ness. That way, if the opponent rushes to attack me the explosion will protect me from being punished.

 

[xoxokev]

Like all moves, you must be wary about who you are playing against. I would never use PK Flash as an attack against Lucas/Ness/G&W, charged or uncharged. I would only use it against them to bait a Psi Magnet or Bucket. Keep in mind that you should never move PK Flash towards yourself if your opponent has a reflector, as you will do massive damage to yourself... unless you cancel it on the floor, of course. PK Flash, as an attack or scare tactic, should be used when you know you will not get punished, i.e. when the opponent is knocked far enough off of the stage.

To answer 1337-Zero's question, you shouldn't really expect to hit with PK Flash, its more of a move used to control what your opponent will do next. But when you do hit with it, you will feel a great sense of satisfaction, and as i said earlier, your opponent will feel really stupid

 

[Uffe]

Well, if I realize that I've charged PK Flash for to long, I move it back to Ness. That way, if the opponent rushes to attack me the explosion will protect me from being punished.

That's pretty much what my secret was. I just never see other Ness' do it. I've had this land more than enough times on different occasions.

 

[Dajayman]

Like all moves, you must be wary about who you are playing against. I would never use PK Flash as an attack against Lucas/Ness/G&W, charged or uncharged. I would only use it against them to bait a Psi Magnet or Bucket. Keep in mind that you should never move PK Flash towards yourself if your opponent has a reflector, as you will do massive damage to yourself... unless you cancel it on the floor, of course.

Good, obvious point. I NEVER use PK Flash against an absorber.

That's pretty much what my secret was. I just never see other Ness' do it. I've had this land more than enough times on different occasions.

I do this all the time to protect myself, most people I face aren't stupid enough to go into it trying to attack me. Luckily PK Flash's ending lag prevents intense punishment in this case.

And here I thought UffGay had some cool, flashy technique. I am quite disappointed sir...

 

[1337-Zero]

That's pretty much what my secret was. I just never see other Ness' do it. I've had this land more than enough times on different occasions.

Useful ain't it? Yeah, I never use that tech against an absorber/reflector either.

And here I thought UffGay had some cool, flashy technique. I am quite disappointed sir...

Lol.....Hey, wait! Are you saying my technique isn't cool and PK Flashy?

@xoxokev: I was mainly wondering if you guys used PK Flash to scare rather than damage, since I almost always use it to scare. I agree with just about everything you've said about PK Flash.

 

[TRAMD]

I use PK flash as an edge guard (when I'm too lazy to use Dair, PKT or other air), when someone is on a platform above me (although I usually use SH Nair or Uair if they are at KO percentages) and as a guard against characters with superior Dairs such as the Links. My bobble head doesn't like that sword stuck into it but the blast of energy never complains!