ness discussion

[The Star King]

Meh

Pokemon TCG is for collecting, not actually playing ^_^

Why is 5th gen stupid?

 

[asianaussie]

Have you played it or heard any rumours?

And TCG is very competitive at the moment.

 

[The Star King]

I haven't played it. I listen to the Smogcast, though, so I guess I know some things.

RNG abuse doesn't take that much time if you're good at it btw

 

[asianaussie]

Took me three hours to RNG a magikarp from when I didn't even know what RNGing is.

That's far too long, I could breed 3 or 4 acceptable magikarps in that time, or EV train one or two acceptable ones.

 

[The Star King]

I said if you're good at it.

I remember a video of somebody hatching a perfect shiny Togepi in like 20 mins. And catching a near-perfect Heatran in like 10.

 

[asianaussie]

i maintain if you're going to go to all that trouble you may as well order a pokegen

i do perfectly fine against pokegen'd teams with my 2-3 perfect IV mons

 

[Peek~]

I think its time to redo my Ness

 

[The Star King]

Implement reverse weak fair/bair into your combo game. Do it.

 

[ciaza]

I'm pretty sure I've seen Peek attempt to get a weak reverse fair off in a livestream match against malva.

 

[The Star King]

Maybe. I've personally never seen him use them.

 

[Sangoku]

I think it's time people redo some Ness video library too.

 

[weedwack]

where can i find animations of all of ness' hitboxes/hurtboxes?

 

[ciaza]

Click me!

Though as you can see the table is incomplete.

 

[SSBPete]

On topic, are there any other cool Ness channels/videos other than Peek's so I could learn stuff?

Yeah you should check out Sima, the Japanese player. He makes Ness look playable.
Heres a random vid I just found of him. Theres plenty more and much better ones too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O28L2va8lYA&feature=related

The combo at the end of this game is genius:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMWt0gMwPPU&feature=related

Probably the number 1 Ness in my opinion

 

[Sangoku]

I didn't even think someone would answer! :O
Thanks for this, I'll take a look.

 

[Battlecow]

Don't forget the legendary "Triumph of Sima."

Also check out Firo's Channel

 

[weedwack]

what is the best way to counter fox's dair approach? once it lands the suffering never ends -_-

 

[clubbadubba]

what is the best way to counter fox's dair approach? once it lands the suffering never ends -_-

DI out of it, for one. Drills are easy to DI out of because they hit you multiple times. I would say try to get behind fox if you can because it makes it harder for him to follow up. I'm no ness player, but I know I've been ness utilted countless times while doing any kind of approach with any character. once the utilt hits the suffering never ends

utilt probably isn't the best counter, but its simple, easy, and it does work if timed correctly

 

[The Star King]

I would DJC Uair. It's safer/less laggy than utilt, still leads to high punishment, and is a great way to beat aerial approaches in general, thanks to the fact that Ness's head is invincible during the uair, effectively giving it a huge range. Utilt comes out significantly faster in front of you, though, since uair starts behind you, so utilt may sometimes be better if you don't have time to DJC Uair.

 

[clubbadubba]

I would DJC Uair. It's safer/less laggy than utilt, still leads to high punishment, and is a great way to beat aerial approaches in general, thanks to the fact that Ness's head is invincible during the uair, effectively giving it a huge range. Utilt comes out significantly faster in front of you, though, since uair starts behind you, so utilt may sometimes be better if you don't have time to DJC Uair.

So what you're saying is, pivot away from fox then DJC uair ftw.

 

[The Star King]

If you have time to pivot -> djc uair you might as well just djc uair normally, the animation isn't THAT long lol

 

[dandan]

usmash can be really good as well (i am looking at you peek).

 

[Peek~]

Usmash will work

If you baited them you can dash away and djc Bair or Spike, or just grab

 

[weedwack]

Thanks for all the help guys, all these responses are very helpful.

Does anybody z-cancel ness' arials? Doesnt seem to make much of a difference.
how effective is the jab grab? does it increase the speed/range of the grab?

 

[ciaza]

Uair and dair have no ending lag, but his other 3 aerials do. It's good to get into the habit of z-cancelling the ones that do, so even if you feel it doesn't make much difference it's still recommended. At higher levels of play you will definitely need to z-cancel all aerials that have ending lag, even for Ness, in order to perform combos like fair chains for example.

EDIT: removed this part since it's in question.

 

[The Star King]

Jab comes out in two frames. Not sure how fast grab comes out, but I'm pretty sure it's slower. So it might be useful if you need that little bit of speed or damage.

 

[ciaza]

But even if the jab did it come out faster, you'd have to add up the starting times for both the jab and grab and then compare it to the opening lag of the grab alone, which I'm pretty sure is slower. Right? Unless the jab completely nullifies all opening lag for the grab.

 

[weedwack]

if you press r immediately after you press a, you can barely tell there was a jab before the grab. plus, if the jab lands, the hitstun is definately longer than the start up time for the grab.

 

[The Star King]

But even if the jab did it come out faster, you'd have to add up the starting times for both the jab and grab and then compare it to the opening lag of the grab alone, which I'm pretty sure is slower. Right? Unless the jab completely nullifies all opening lag for the grab.

No, you're missing the point. Let's say you dash attack a shield and know you're about to be shieldgrabbed. If jab comes out faster than grab, then it would be better to jab-grab than to just grab to avoid being shieldgrabbed. It doesn't matter that for jab-grab, the grab itself comes out slower, because the hitstun/shieldstun of the jab will lead to the grab, so what actually matters is the speed of the jab vs the speed of just grabbing. Does that make sense?

Probably could have thought of a better hypothetical, but meh, whatever.

 

[Sangoku]

Wow what a good example! No irony (inb4 people misunderstanding), I really wouldn't have thought about a legit use of it.

 

[The Star King]

I'm not sure about the example because they will probably have plenty of time to shieldgrab a dash attack anyways. I probably should have said upsmash or something. I took the example from another character - Pikachu - and just kind of changed it up.

With Pikachu, I try to aerial -> upsmash a lot at low percents, but a lot of times I mess up by not upsmashing soon enough and they manage to shield it. The shieldstun of a fresh usmash and the lag of the animation end at pretty close times, so both you and your opponent are free to act around the same time. I like to jabgrab in this situation for the same reasons stated in the Ness example (not only that, but if I try to just grab and press the button too soon I'll accidentally shield, and I don't want that).

 

[Peek~]

Does anybody z-cancel ness' arials? Doesnt seem to make much of a difference.

Yes, you should cancel everything except Uair and Dair since they autocancel

how effective is the jab grab? does it increase the speed/range of the grab?

The main purpose of jabgrab(at least for me) is to keep the enemy in place for the grab, so they dont grab/jab/shield jump/whatever out of your regular grab attempt.
You probably wont use it as much as the other 3 jabgrabbers but you should always remember that you can do it if needed

 

[ciaza]

SK - Yeah, I got it, my bad. I was assuming the jab wasn't going to hit.

 

[weedwack]

Ive noticed some higher level ness players ducking to avoid certain attacks, usually smash attacks, which often leads into a grab. Can sombody try to give me a notion of what type of attacks can be avoided with this? so far ive seen Peek~ do it on CF usmash and samus dsmash.

can i duck under any fox attacks? in case you can't tell, I have a rodent problem.

 

[Battlecow]

Ducking a Doug Up-smash?

Show me this.

 

[The Star King]

How could you possibly duck Samus's Dsmash? Do you mean her Dair?

 

[Peek~]

Probably means Crouch Canceling?

 

[weedwack]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkrU9DG3jH8&feature=feedu

doug usmash @30
the samus duck was a dtilt, my bad. but its at 12:05 anyway.

 

[The Star King]

Lol I don't think ducking dodged the attacks in either case

I think you can dodge stuff like Samus's Fsmash though

 

[Battlecow]

Yeah, the dougUsmash missed horizontally by a mile.