Ness' Metagame Discussion

[PKSkyler]

Falco isn't exactly laser spam. He can be a bit of a problem.



R.O.B. has an amazing recovery but can almost be easily gimped by keeping him off the stage or simply dairing him. However that doesn't mean he can't attack, but he only has so much boost to come back to the stage. He's not a character impossible to beat, but he takes time to defeat either way.

always hit him with pkt from below him, he cancels pkt`s head with fair easily if you try to hit him in front, but dair takes time and stalls him, also it pulls him down a bit if you hit him with PKT, and he cant airdodge when hes up bing so yeah exploit that too.

 

[Ref]

As for the falco chaingrab into D air, Meteor cancel it. Or DI so that falco misses the D air. The problem for you sage is that you might have a problem meteor canceling with Ness. Remember you have two options:

Mash Up B and once you see it come out control it to recovery.
Or Double jump at the right time.

IF you try the double jump and time it wrong you cannot double jump even when the time is right.

A D-air from falco at 50% shouldn't kill you if you can Meteor cancel or DI

Now when discussing Ness' hard match ups do not discuss why it's a hard match up. Just find what problem the person is having.

 

[Uffe]

Falco cg's Ness into dair.

That's going to be tough. Ness can't get chain grabbed by Falco and if he can, then the person playing Ness hasn't figured out how to get out. By one grab that's all Falco really has on Ness. Falco's chain grabbing isn't exactly the best one, either because most characters can escape this after the first grab. So if that's the only trouble then move out of it. It's not like Marth's or Charizard's.

 

[Ref]

Falco does have a chaingrab on Ness. Up to like 45% I think. Down throw to edge to D air. Falco can chain grab pretty much everyone....

Most characters escaping falco's chain grab? That is wrong.... You must be playing online or something.... No offense...

Enough about falco back to Ness...

 

[thesage]

It's just the fact that he gets a lot of damage off. You can always fastfall or di weird to screw the falco up on the last grab. Falco def. has a cg on Ness lolz.

Rob also has a release grab cg on Ness. Maybe I di it wrong? I try to spotdodge and it never comes out. Only when he messes up.

You shouldn't be able to gimp ROB's, he probably should be recovering from where Ness can't even reach him. Plus ROB is really heavy so he can survive easily.

Fair isn't as useful as normal since he has faster things I think. Nair is probably more helpful. I still haven't tried a utilt on him yet.

Some should test out Ness' utilt to see what areals it beats out.

 

[ColinJF]

ROB is just a big target for pk thunder and pk thunder 2. In particular, pk thunder 2 from diagonal angles or straight down will usually poke above his shield (no one angles their shield up for this) even if it's almost full. The tail of pk thunder -> pk thunder 2 combo also works well on him since he doesn't have any good downward attacks... of course he can just fly far away from you in the air but then you just rack up free damage with pk thunder 1.

His release-grab dash grab chaingrab does very poor damage (it's like 20% if you are grabbed at low damage and you escape as fast as possible and you're crossing the whole stage). In fact, you probably have better options out of a grab on ROB... up throw is even better than usual because he has no good defence to attacks from below (his down air is really slow). Ness's up air really brutalises ROB in the air.

His recovery isn't often gimped but it's easy to rack up free damage on him as he recovers.

Most of his attacks on the ground can shut down your forward air but not the down air (and I usually spam the latter). To shut down the down air he has to use the up tilt or up smash, which leaves him vulnerable to the forward air... just mix up between them.

 

[Uffe]

Falco does have a chaingrab on Ness. Up to like 45% I think. Down throw to edge to D air. Falco can chain grab pretty much everyone....

Most characters escaping falco's chain grab? That is wrong.... You must be playing online or something.... No offense...

Enough about falco back to Ness...

Nope, not online. I've been using Falco for a bit now and there are some people who seem to escape it better than others. Perhaps I'm just doing something wrong.

 

[Brinzy]

Ref is correct. Falco gets five grabs off of Ness at the most before Ness is clear.

 

[Uffe]

But that doesn't make sense because my brother escapes after the first grab. It's Falco's grab > d-throw > repeat (5x), right? Because if it is then that's what I'm doing and my brother has no problem escaping. He said just hold back and jump or you can just jump without holding back, but the first one is suggested because it makes it easier. If you're saying a chain grab like how Marth does it, just jabs, release and then grab > jab again, then maybe it'll go up to 45%, but what I'm doing, like what Sethlon does, it's not working on Ness.

EDIT: I have a question. Does Ness have a hard time going up against Kirby? I know I've come across a few who seem to have almost no problem winning and it's mainly because they use their f-smash as an attack to win. Other than that being predictable and punishable, what are some ways of winning against Kirby?

 

[Brinzy]

Are you running with Falco? Because you're always supposed to walk when you do it. Running grabs actually give the opponent more time to break out. Other than that, I'm not sure what you're doing...

As for Kirby, I'm not totally sure because I haven't faced many Kirbys, but I don't think it's a particularly difficult match-up. Can't say for sure, of course...

 

[Uffe]

Are you running with Falco? Because you're always supposed to walk when you do it. Running grabs actually give the opponent more time to break out. Other than that, I'm not sure what you're doing...

As for Kirby, I'm not totally sure because I haven't faced many Kirbys, but I don't think it's a particularly difficult match-up. Can't say for sure, of course...

Walking makes it easier? I do what Sethlon does in this video. I would think walking makes it easier for the other guy to escape. O_o I'll try it your way, though to see if I can put in a lot more.

 

[Brinzy]

Well some characters can be chained by running, but everyone who is on Falco's CG list can be caught with it by walking, so it's generally assumed that walking = superior.

 

[Ref]

Retreat your F air.

Why? Well because it gives you more Implied Priority. Meaning Ness' Hurtbox becomes further from his Hitboxes, (In other words you'll hit without being hit from other attacks.)

You can retreat it easier with the c stick
Move back F air by c sticking forward.

People who don't do this tend to have extra problems against other aerial approaching characters such as Marth with his f airs.

 

[Minato]

So... is chain grabbing the biggest issue on a matchup with Falco? Or is there a lot more to worry about. Needless to say, (but I will anyways) I don't face that many Falcos in tourneys. Not yet at least.

 

[Gaussis]

^Yeah, it seems that chaingrab is the only big one. Other things to worry about is dash attack to usmash and his other stuff.

Retreat your F air.

Why? Well because it gives you more Implied Priority. Meaning Ness' Hurtbox becomes further from his Hitboxes, (In other words you'll hit without being hit from other attacks.)

You can retreat it easier with the c stick
Move back F air by c sticking forward.

People who don't do this tend to have extra problems against other aerial approaching characters such as Marth with his f airs.

This helps a lot, but against Marth, you're gonna need rising aerials. Otherwise, you can't approach Marth in the air and that is a big hindrance.

However, against people who love to approach and have good airgame, using the weird movement properties of firebound and pk jump might be the best choice especially as a mindgame.

 

[Ref]

You can actually combine both. Example:

Marth and Ness jump together and are going to f air, Ness retreats his f air slightly. It connects to Marth. Ness double jumps forward to follow it up. If you intend not to retreat the F air make sure you abuse the time the hit boxes are out. This way you make it hard for Marth to use the F air when he needs to.

Even if you can't follow up, it hurts his approach and does damage.

I personally almost never PK jump now.

I faced Marths quite a bit.... I'm used to the match up. I always approach Marth in the air.

 

[Gaussis]

Personally I have never liked to approach Marth in the air. Too many disjointed attacks on the ground. I prefer Marths approaching me. And yes, it is always wise to combine multiple techniques.

 

[Brinzy]

So... is chain grabbing the biggest issue on a matchup with Falco?

Chaingrabs + d-throw -> dair are common, but you also have to keep in mind that he's got a fairly strong Usmash, lasers (which aren't always viable to Magnet), that shine, and a bit more speed on his moves. Other than that, not really.

 

[Ref]

Ness' down smash has more range than his bat. I wonder what we can do with that range...?

 

[Uffe]

Ness' down smash has more range than his bat. I wonder what we can do with that range...?

It has good killing potential, too. Just a few days back fighting a friend, his percent was around the one hundreds and I used my d-smash on him but he dodged it. I got him the second time, though. His d-smash is overall good for killing, but I think the back side has a better chance of killing than the front side.

 

[Criosphinx]

I utilize the Dsmash quite alot by SH D/U airing through someone for shield pressure. The Uair is auto cancellable, so it lends well to dropping the yoyo behind you. If they dodge in front of you, they get hit, if they dodge back, you're usually safe.

It doesn't lend well to faster characters, but it's decent. That being said, I use it far less than Usmash. Reverse hyphen smashed Usmash is Mindgame$$$

 

[thesage]

The 3rd (not sure of the 2nd) hits of Ness' jab has more range than his ftilt and bat.

 

[Gaussis]

I think the yo-yo can be pivoted if I am not mistaken. The third part of Ness jab does have surprising range but I didn't know it was by that much. O_O

 

[Ref]

It's very very slightly longer than the bat.

And my mistakes the down smash is not longer than the bat. What had happen was I tested the bat versus down smash on sand bag who has curves as you go higher up.

 

[Gaussis]

I still think dsmash yo-yo needs more use. I only use it for an attack from behind (which usually happens at a high percentage for the opponent).

 

[Brinzy]

I might be the only person here who uses Dsmash religiously but not so much Usmash. I don't know... I just... don't like it. I like my Usmashes to reliably take out things from above, not be some fickle yo-yo where someone just cuts through it and hits me.

Then again, I'm probably just spoiled off of my secondaries' Usmashes.

That said, Dsmash can be pretty fickle, too. I hate when I just hit with the weak part and not the strong one. I want a full hit when I first bring it out... and keep the second hit's power. Or rather, give us back SSB64's power and leave the Brawl goodies, please.

 

[Minato]

I haven't utilized Ness's yo-yo smashes. I've been short hopping aerials and using throws on the ground. I've rarely KOed opponents with his smashes.

I'm going to try remember to mix things up next time with Ness.

 

[Criosphinx]

I don't generally get a large amount of KO's through smashes. The occasional Fsmash to punish a bad roll, yeah. But I've actually gotten more Utilt kills than U or D smash kills.

A large number of my kills come from Bair, Bthrow, Dair, PKT/2, and the occasional PK flash.

 

[Howard Johnson]

It took me a while to realize the full potential of how awesome Ness's aerials are, I used to main Lucas, but after playing with Ness for a bit, I was wow'd.

I used to complain a lot about his Yoyos though for some reason...

 

[Luigi player]

I don't generally get a large amount of KO's through smashes. The occasional Fsmash to punish a bad roll, yeah. But I've actually gotten more Utilt kills than U or D smash kills.

A large number of my kills come from Bair, Bthrow, Dair, PKT/2, and the occasional PK flash.

My kills are mostly (in order from most to least): Dair, Bthrow, Fsmash, PKT2, sometimes others like upair, or PKFlash.

Of course you can't really KO with the Yoyo ^^ so fsmash is the only smash you can really kill with. And with a bit of mindgames my enemys are hit pretty often with it.

 

[Uffe]

My kills are mostly (in order from most to least): Dair, Bthrow, Fsmash, PKT2, sometimes others like upair, or PKFlash.

Of course you can't really KO with the Yoyo ^^ so fsmash is the only smash you can really kill with. And with a bit of mindgames my enemys are hit pretty often with it.

Wrong. Ness' d-smash and u-smash can kill. Ness' d-smash however is a lot more deadly. Especially if your opponent is behind you and gets hit by you d-smash.

 

[Luigi player]

Well I know they can kill, I said they can't >really< KO... and with that I mean at reasonable %. ^^ When do they kill? I think at around 160-170 %... or more.

And btw, I was on the online waiting stage and tried to figure out the reach of Ness' third jab, ftilt and fsmash.

I did it that I could phantom hit the Sandbag with the baseball bat, and when I did it I also phantom hit with the third jab, so I guess they have the same Range... I didn't hit with the ftilt though (I even went a very little bit forward because otherwise I can't really do the ftilt...).

 

[Gaussis]

Actually dsmash yo-yo can kill at 100 fresh at the edge of the stage, give or take damage depending on who you are fighting (I am using Marth as the 100 example, as that is the only dsmash KO I can remember atm). Usmash would kill earlier if it was fresh, which I don't see really happening for yo-yo happy Nesses.

 

[Luigi player]

Wow, really? Didn't know that, but yeah I was a bit surprised about their knockback when I used them today ^^ I don't think the upsmash yoyo will kill earlier though, because it has to kill off the top...

 

[thesage]

D-smash is situational at best.

Ness kills are dair, bair, b-throw.

Bat is situational.

Pkt2 is situational

Uair is situational but is helpful in certain matches.

Edgeguarding with Fair and nair is helpful.

 

[Brinzy]

I think Luigi Player is looking for the word "reliable", because that's what Dsmash and Usmash are not in terms of killing.

 

[_clinton]

D-smash is situational at best.

Ness kills are dair, bair, b-throw.

Bat is situational.

Pkt2 is situational

Uair is situational but is helpful in certain matches.

Edgeguarding with Fair and nair is helpful.

PK Flash is nice for edgeguarding...to control what the foe does so you can land something better...I guess you would call it a Gimmick but anyway...at least you don't need to charge it that long for getting an ok range KO with it...once it starts to drop...it is in ok kill range...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDi5IRWwImo

2:11

It did 23% I had 106%

 

[Earthbound360]

I wouldnt call the uair a situational kill move at all, at least, the way I use it

 

[Minato]

I wouldnt call the uair a situational kill move at all, at least, the way I use it

I agree. Uair is pretty good when an opponent has a crappy Dair as well.

 

[Earthbound360]

lol the way I use it, you wont be landing dairs on me from an uair attempt