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Ness Video & Critique Thread

Eagleye893

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I never said bthrow is the only kill move Ness has. In fact I get more bair/uair kills than bthrow kills. I'm just saying to always keep that bad boy fresh since it's a very reliable kill move, if you keep it fresh!
I know that... xD

I just find myself almost 90% of the time killing with something random that isn't bthrow. Everyone I play can somehow massively DI it to just barely live every time, which is why I hate using it. It makes me sad when a move that SHOULD kill someone barely doesn't.
 

Eagleye893

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The heavy part is where I don't bother with bthrow; it's easier to pressure shield and others with bair poke.

Also, wifi is the dumbest thing ever. People only need to exPloit the lag by mashing and random crap. Also, whatever the heck I do apparently clashes/hits both characters no matter what. My attack is super quick and his attack wins in speed because it's wifi.
 

Neon Ness

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Dude likes to get his point across...

Just realized it might be helpful to add a non-match section to the OP for stuff like this. I'm sure there are some tutorial videos and such that could also be included there.
 

Dajayman

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You should add any of the remaining videos that still exist in the PK Cross thread. Also that one PKT AT video should be added as well, I bet nobody here knows what a solar plexus is...
 

Eagleye893

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My whole YouTube channel might randomly include some stuff over the year. I'm gonna try and post some things I work on with ness that I havent heard of. I've got some jab>grab ideas (if you are frame perfect, Or just buffer well, you can jab > dashgrab at nearly any percent... But not 100% guaranteed), dtilt > grab, Bair > grab at low percents (it works for a certain percent range, since landing with bair pops the opponent up a tiny bit and gives them a bit of stun) and others.

Just look up eageleye893 and you'll find it.
 

P.I.E.

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Well I think for ike (going backwards) You ought to just space ike and keep your distance. pk fire/thunder is a must, and fair could e the difference between you dying and ike being planked off the stage o.o Ike is vulnerable at the top of his recovery, so hitting him with fire there and follow up with a falling uair/nair is a pretty useful kill at higher percents. Ike's heavy (ish) so you could maybe trying finding a mindgame to play with him using dthrow (one of its few uses, IMO) For TL, it's basically the strategy I use on snake, but less effective, since TL has so many darned quick attackes with little lagtime (mostly) for one thing try catching his bombs (airdodge, spot dodge, pressing your attack button at the right time, etc) and just like you would a diddy, use some of them against him (not too often though) Also remember that he's not the only one with projectiles, and you fire out- prioritizes all of his (I'm pretty sure, the pillar is still there at least) it's a bit more safe to use pkfire in the air, especially for punishing him. Also, for his chain grab, if you can read it and can dodge and retaliate fast enough, it can be as big an opportunity as jigglypuff using sing :D a bat would do wonders, maybe even pkt2 if you're quick enough.
Another effective way to win against someone lighter than you (TL) is to pick a stage with a smaler than average blastline (The only one I know of is halberd) This will make the KO's come quicker, but it's a double edged sword, because the KO's come a bit quick for you too if you don't DI correctly ( which you seem to do well)

Here's one I posted when I was rlly sleepy last night, but it's funny how I used reptitive moves to play mindgames xD http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2Y9ZEA_xwg
 

Yink

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I posted in the social about what I thought of the first match. I'll still watch the other two tomorrow.
 

Yink

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I've known it for quite while. It's good to know, but I rarely have a grab happen right there and without someone knowing it.

Though, we always appreciate it because I'm sure not all the Ness mains knew it. Thanks a lot :)
 

Yink

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IIRC, it should only work with some characters, not with all. I know it works on Link and DDD for sure...I never really tested it beyond that though.
 

Eagleye893

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@PIE:

never approach with fair... NEVER. It's only good if you are trying to keep an opponent out. Bair is MUCH better for nearly every approaching/pressuring instance. It pokes shields insanely well and is minimal on landing lag if done right.
Dair will not hit through oli's uair. You have to hit with the edge of the hibox as the spike comes out if you want results. Basically, just don't do it. It's better just to run right or left and wait for him to approach with a different aerial.
When fighting oli, keep the laggish moves to a minimum. that means little to no grounded pkfire, no yoyos unless punishing, and no landing with fair or nair. You need to be able to react and keep safe, because Oli just needs one or two messups from opponents in order to get a grab or cause other damage.
Nair and Uair are key in this MU. Nair is quick, uair is non-elemental move that can also be used elsewhere. Bair can help a ton if there are few-no yellow pikmin.
DON'T approach on shield with fair. WORST IDEA EVER! whenever your opponent is in a position to shield, you either want to edge off with a LANDING dair (AC'd so you can shield/spotdodge or follow with a jab/tilt/grab) or with a LANDING retreating bair. Bair's hitbox is misleading to some people. you can hit the top of a shield and carry a fair distance away from your opponent within a minor amount of time. That allows for a shield to pop up in time to stop some attempt at attacks by MOST characters and a quick turn-around to jab on other characters. A coouple characters (snake!) can just hit you with something or grab you.

Okay, something that I need to critique in terms of GENERAL playstyle: it appears as if, when you decide to approach, you approach very directly onto your opponent ("GO RIGHT FOR HIM! DON'T HOLD BACK!"). That doesn't work in smash, especially not with ness. With ness, you need an INDIRECT approach. By this, I mean you need to gain a vantage point before you initiate an attack. This is done in a couple ways: Dair, FH above them with something or nothing, SH Nair (situation dependent), FH PKfire, PK Jump, dtilt(!!!!!!!!), jab, or a very well-placed Dash Attack.
Dair has an easy-to-do AutoCancel on the ground... the FH variation is one I got used to over time, b/c I full hop a LOT with ness. The AC allows for you to follow things up very quickly and also protect yourself if needed. If you end up getting behind an opponent with an AC'd Dair, you have a very good shot at putting on some good damage.
FH puts you above most characters' range to hit you, either forcing them off the ground (good for you!) or to try and predict what you're doing and where you'll land. You have a bit of control over this situation. You can ignore some things and AD to the ground, then follow up with other stuff (risky, but can work) or you can proceed with a bair or uair or dair or nair (also dependent on height and FF timing). You have a bit of options with this... but some characters rock all the options.
SH nair... you need to be perfect... don't bother with it ATM.
FH PKfire can pressure shields and bait opponents. you get a Uair or AD or nair on landing if done right. I use this crazy trick where ness bounces back slightly when initiating a FH PKfire so that I'm slightly more distanced from the enemy. I'll try and show it later.
PK Jump is still underrated. you have such good angling and velocity when doing it right!
dtilt may seem silly... but it works. DTILT is so quick that you can get out of it and do other things with ease. If you do a dtilt out of range of an opponent, they think they can get you with something. You can follow up with a dashgrab or ftilt in almost ALL cases. Some people are smart though, so you have to be careful. Also dtilt on shield is INSANE! except against some characters... :(
Jab only works sometimes. It's the two hit series that does it. The second hit is slightly more of a pop up, so it can lead more easily into grabs or dtilts... or ftilts.
DASH ATTACK IS UNDERRATED!! OMG!!!! If you can space the second and third hit right, it's like ueber shield pressure and a good setup into other things. The first hit of dash attack SUCKS. the second two hits help each other. Remember that.

there ya go, pie.

I'll get to PK Love's vid in a sec.

sorry, PK Love... not a good enough indicator of skill...

I will say a couple things: don't try too hit with the PKT2 too much. you might end up killing yourself and better opponents will punish you HARD. also, you had a couple empty jumps. that's a good idea, but you didn't really do anything in terms of pressuring from that.

Learn PK Jump
Learn Dash Attack placement for second and third hits
Dtilt a LOT!
PSImag > all.
 

Eagleye893

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PPL!!! STOP APPROACHING HEAVILY WITH FAIR!!! Fair is a good aerial, but if you use it too much or in the wrong places, it just ruins everything. Fair is TERRIBLE when dropping down on opponents. Nair is even better... Bair is the best of the drop-down aerials, but Uair and Dair are pretty good. Nair is too much landing lag and shorter range generally. Fair has a bad low hitbox, so it's less advised.

got lucky first stock...

Bad habit noticed: you seem to roll inward toward an opponent quite a bit. It's less good if you can't get to the other side of the opponent. It just gives an opportunity to be grab or other punished.

At low percents, a Bair hit is a 90% assured dashgrab afterward. I've tested it a TON. It can only be beaten if your opponent hastily uses a move, which can be beaten by waiting a tiny bit.

Generally, try and keep the PKT slightly above the horizontal line of an opponent when sending it toward them. When the PKT head gets nearer, THEN start to send it below them or around them. You want the tailwhip to prevent movement to the stage or toward a desired position in relation to an yourself. I say send the pkt ABOVE an opponent because keeping it below means there's a longer amount of time to loop it back and hit ness. You can also be successful by sending it horizontally below your opponent, but for some characters it's more risky..

LANDING UAIR!!! EVEN LANDING BAIR WOULD'VE WORKED!!! Using pkt wouldn't have done much... Pkfire wouldn't have done anything... yeah. I can understand a button slip. Try to have less of those.

Landing bair/uair are powerful. use them when coming out of FH randomness.

Like the use of fair and pkfire to stop the nado. GJ with that.

on edges of stages, fthrow is better.

I like the dsmash punishes, but sometimes it's not worth the risky lag.

you used dtilt once, but you faced the wrong direction. when that happens and you hit them once, immediately turn around and grab. NOT DASH, just turn around and grab. They could be discombobulated or tripped and you could get a grab for free.

I don't remember what I was going to say...

Oh, MK dtrhow-chained you... you can Nair to get away from that... I think.


/possibly more later
 

Pogoshark

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I'll get to PK Love's vid in a sec.

sorry, PK Love... not a good enough indicator of skill...

I will say a couple things: don't try too hit with the PKT2 too much. you might end up killing yourself and better opponents will punish you HARD. also, you had a couple empty jumps. that's a good idea, but you didn't really do anything in terms of pressuring from that.

Learn PK Jump
Learn Dash Attack placement for second and third hits
Dtilt a LOT!
PSImag > all.
Thanks for the tips, my opponent is incredibly defensive , so its kinda hard to pressure.


"Learn PK Jump" doesnt that just give me a higher jump? also does it require b-sticking?
"Learn Dash Attack placement for second and third hits" also hard to actualy land when my opponent dodgerolls away from everything :/
"Dtilt a LOT!" I try to :p
 

Eagleye893

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PK Jump is... crud....

I'll make a video in a bit... once my parents/brother are asleep. It's not that difficult to actually DO, it's just that keeping it consistent and building off of it is difficult for most beginners.

YOU DON'T NEED B-STICKING! You just need to initiate a jump and PKfire simultaneously in the air. This can be done easily by setting either one of your X/Y to special or one of your Shoulder buttons (I use L) to Jump. The timing is a bit difficult at first, but you can manage quickly.
PK Jump launches you forward and up slightly. The forward movement can vary. The upward movement is constant. The forward depends on how much and how long you hold onto forward or how much of a tap you put to the motion of your PK Fire input. If you tap it slightly, you will move only slightly forward If you tap it hard, you will move hard forward.
The key to PK Jump is getting the right height off the ground to initiate it. If you start it near the ground, all you can do is AD to the ground. That's not a lot of options. If you initiate it at or above the full height of a SH, you can use AD, Nair, Fair, Bair, and Uair all before hitting the ground. The problem with Bair is it is very strict on height, so it's not worth using much.

PK Jump takes time to learn, but it gives another method of approach and pressure if you need it. It may not be the best method, but it still exists.


Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUCIbO2fRvg
 

Uffe

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8CUnwWg6IY

A friendly with my friend, any pointers on how I can improve?

Also my friend thinks I camp?

Can someone please say something that will make him shut up
-My Tips To You-
Stop being reactive and start being more proactive.

Don't use PK Fire so close that you'll get punished for it.

Do less rolling. Your friend rolls, too. That's the reason your friend got hit by your PK Thunder 2. Instead, run, jump or dodge. Rolling is good, but not if you overdo it.

Stop using PK Thunder 2 as if it's a basic attack. Your opponent can block it and either grab or hit you.

Save your back throws as a kill move. Believe it or not, your back throw is dangerous to most characters in Brawl. If all else fails, use it.

At 2:54 of the match in that video, what you were doing with PK Thunder is a particular mindgame if you can set it up right. You had the right idea, but you didn't hit yourself, unfortunately.

-Let's Get Down To It-
I'm not sure how long you've had Super Smash Bros. Brawl, or when you decided to try and become competitive, but here is some basic knowledge you should apply to your game other than what I've already stated above.

1. Space yourself - Spacing yourself puts you in a position to where you don't allow your opponent to hit you. You will get hit eventually, but the better you space yourself, the longer you'll live.

2. Hit and run - I don't mean being a campy player, either. If you can succeed in it, then go ahead and do so. Otherwise, get as many hits on your opponent as possible and try to string your attacks into a combo to deal more damage. The running part is where you space yourself.

3. Don't be predictable - Don't do the same thing over and over again unless it's really working. The more predictable you are, the harder it is going to be for you to win against your opponent. With that said...

4. Read your opponent - Everybody has a playstyle. Try to change it up, though. When you play, think while you're playing. Focus on your opponent because you should know what you're already going to do. So focus on him or her, not yourself. Watch how your opponent reacts.

I hope I wasn't too harsh about this sort of thing. I would like to see more good Ness players is all. :)

Oh, and you're not campy. You want the definition of campy, look at Wifi Olimar. In the mean time if you want to get a general idea of how to use Ness in Brawl, look up players like ViceGrip, Bartolon (S1-14), FOW, Yink, Shaky, and so on. Those are just a few, though. Learn to play like they play and you'll do good.
 

Eagleye893

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Once I go to this tourney at the end of this month, I'll post some vids. I'm gonna get them recorded either by replay and then someone going randomly and recording it after a while or by my camera for my phone.

This is April 30th... Oh, comeback tourney.... hopefully I'll do well. xD
 

P.I.E.

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Well IMO, you weren't in the air enough. I understand it's tink (toonlink) you're fighting with ness, but it's good to use plenty of aerials other than fair. Utilize your other throws other than fthrow. Also, you can shield the lava, it's not exactly necessary that you go into the safehouse. If you airdodge or press the attack button at the right time, you can catch tink's bombs, and sharking (attacking from under a platform) works great on norfair. Make sure you make good use of your aerials. Nair's useful, and dair will result in an embarassing KO over norfair, but make sure you're at the apex of your jump (part where you stop moving upward and right before gravity pulls you down) when you pull something like that, since it's a bit risky otherwise. Pk flash is an amazing, move, but don't overuse it. I suggest only using it twice a match, but not on a stage like that, and only to edgeguard usually.
You should edgeguard with pkt instead if you prefer a projectile approach, but nothing says GFTO the getting him with a nair/bair/dair(heck yeah) offstage.

Furthermore, when you kill him with fsmash, don't forget to yell SMAAAAAAASH!!!
 

Uffe

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You use Ness? I can't watch your video on this craptastic computer (that isn't mine), but I'll try to get back to you as soon as possible. :)
 
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