Ness's PK Flash doesn't suck!

[Ademisk]

Yeah. Ness is one of the few characters who really kick Lucas's ***. Ness has more range in every facility, and he can absorb Lucas's PKT without too much trouble, whereas Lucas can't absorb Ness's PKT2, which is far superior to Lucas's. Ness also doesn't have to sweetspot his EVERY SINGLE ATTACK for it to be useful, so his spacing is better for all his attacks too.

 

[IrishSheikah]

Ademisk vs. BentoBox
The Fury

 

[Kiki52]

I think Ness' PK Fire has shorter range than Lucas' PK fire but Ness' PK Fire does a lot more damage and causes the person to be thrown up and they have to DI out of it. Other than that, I think Ness has better aerials and his forward and forward air moves are better than Lucas because they are prioritastic but Lucas has better smashes.

 

[NessOnett]

I think Ness' PK Fire has shorter range than Lucas' PK fire but Ness' PK Fire does a lot more damage and causes the person to be thrown up and they have to DI out of it. Other than that, I think Ness has better aerials and his forward and forward air moves are better than Lucas because they are prioritastic but Lucas has better smashes.

by "thrown up" from Ness' PKfire i hope you mean locks them in a pillar of infernal flames. Lucas in no way has better smashes though, they are different. Baseball bat vs. stick...baseball bat wins, hands down if for nothing else than the fact that it doesnt have a leaf on it. As for the upsmash, Lucas' may be the strongest in the game, but it is slow as hell. Ness however has a quick yoyo that can be used well in combos, plus he gets added points for beating people with a childrens' toy.

 

[Kiki52]

plus he gets added points for beating people with a childrens' toy.

You know if Paula was an alt of Ness and she beat Lucas up with a teddy bear that would be a classic.

 

[Ademisk]

Ness's PK Fire dips slightly, even when shooting straight. The range is approximately the same, but on the ground, it'll hit the ground before it finishes out sometimes.

 

[BentoBox]

Lucas can absorb Ness' PKT from all angles. And how is Ness' PKT far superior to Lucas? Because it deals more damage? I see Lucas' as being a lot safer. Because of the smaller curving radius and because one good hit can very well lead into another. And when I talked about the higher ups I didn't mean Ness ~ And spacing shouldn't be much of a concern when talking about potential. Look at marth!

Lucas' pkt2 is better for recovering, Ness' pkt2 is better for attacking.

I seriously have to see that happen against a good player =/. You can see it coming from miles away... *Airdodge*

 

[Ademisk]

Nobody else is gonna do this? *sigh*

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7250542830672639043&hl=en

PK Thunder 2 is too good. And it's even FASTER in Brawl.



And yes, Marth has excellent spacing, his sweetspot is perfect placed to do the most damage when you're being safest.

 

[BentoBox]

PKT = PK Thunder
PKT2 = Hitting yourself with PKT

Right...? ._.''

edit: yeah, the only way he could use it efficiently was when edgeguarding. Making PKT faster doesn't really make up for the fact that people fall slower in brawl and usually get knocked way up and not horizontally, which was the case in ssbm. People have a lot more aerial control as well... Hence making PKT2 an option that's much less viable. And there again, pulling off something similar would be easier with Lucas as his PKT goes through people (see ''awesome move with lucas'' thread) And was Simna really pulling that off in tournaments? Because it seems a tad risky to me. Flashy isn't necesarily good. Combo videos' only purpose is to display flashiness. Hell, he makes the thunder jacket look easy to pull off.

 

[Kiki52]

Bento Box if you like Lucas so much then go play Lucas when you get Brawl and let Ness players play Ness.

 

[BentoBox]

How am I preventing anyone from playing Ness? I'd have to travel to people's homes and threaten them with a gun :'(

ASL?

 

[Ademisk]

And yeah, I've seen Simna in tournaments, he does that **** constantly. Hell, look at my two videos, I do it multiple times. And Punch is a pretty good player. Brawl in fact makes it EASIER to do PKT2 tricks because Ness is constantly in less danger due to the double sided ledgegrab, his PKT is faster by a LOT, it lasts a lot longer, the tail is bigger, and Ness's lag is almost nonexistant. In fact, I foresee it as being a main method of attacking with Ness. We don't use it stupidly.

 

[BentoBox]

Most of the time he'd jump towards you offstage without following up with an aerial and just let himself get hit. But yeah you did make good use of it at times. You shouldn't expect everyone to let you fly that thing around while you stand at a f-smash's length away though

 

[Ademisk]

Again. We don't use it stupidly. Unlike most Lucas users, we've had a LOOOONG time to learn how to use PKT.

 

[IrishSheikah]

And Ademisk just delt a harsh blow to Lucas users

 

[Levitas]

Guess what? Ademisk's right. Not only that, but many of the edgeguarding tricks will work for Ness but NOT Lucas, such as chasing an opponent offstage with a PK Thunder, then looping it back to hit yourself, due to it's faster speed. Lucas wouldn't be able to get the PK Thunder out far enough.

 

[BentoBox]

Again. We don't use it stupidly. Unlike most Lucas users, we've had a LOOOONG time to learn how to use PKT.

But you did use it stupidly in the second vid thus why I brought that up. And Punch was stupid at times too (2 times out of the 3 times it connected in the first vid, he'd jump off-stage and just hover until you'd hit him with it. Why didn't he airdodge? ). I invite you to watch your own videos again. And seriously, get Simna to play Lucas and I doubt he'd have a hard time pulling the same **** off. It's a question of timing, nothing else.

Guess what? Ademisk's right. Not only that, but many of the edgeguarding tricks will work for Ness but NOT Lucas, such as chasing an opponent offstage with a PK Thunder, then looping it back to hit yourself, due to it's faster speed. Lucas wouldn't be able to get the PK Thunder out far enough.

Faster speed but lower curving radius meaning that both PKTs take just about the same time to come back to yourself (that is, if you engage into a circle right after launch). With Lucas' PKT though, you aren't limited to tailwhipping when chasing an opponent offstage, thus enabling him to actually keep pressuring someone offstage with PKT (more damaging), which is something Ness can not do as easily (you can do the same by tailwhipping though, less damaging and harder to execute). And even after hitting someone with the head of PKT (lucas), if he happens to be near the ledge, you can easily loop it back to hit yourself, I have no idea why you'd think he couldn't. My question still hasn't been answered though, the fact that you guys have been used to the mechanics of Melee's PKT does not make it heaps better than Lucas', since there's neat stuff that he can do too. Ness' PKT2 is better though, unless Lucas manages to connect all of the hits.

And again, I don't think people realise that you aren't incapacitated anymore after airdodging in the air. Even when PKTing someone above you, he could easily airdodge his way to safe grounds and punish your aftercast delay.

I'll bump this thread one year from now =P

 

[Levitas]

Dude, don't force the issue. I didn't just say that Ness's PKT is better. So don't put words in my mouth. The fact of the matter is that the two PKTs work best in different ways. Yes, Lucas can use PKT to edgeguard, that's not the question. He cannot chase an opponent at the max range of a Fox fire with the PKT, intentionally miss while maintaining the PKT close to their charge, and then start to double back with it AND hit himself for the PKT2 inwards.

Lucas is better at simply chasing the opponent and hitting them (perhaps several times) with the PKT. Ness can use the PKT to miss or tailwhip the opponent into a trap. Watch Simna's combo vid, especially the PKT edgeguards, and you'll understand why the same tricks don't work with Lucas. He's got his own stuff.

Also, personal attacks are a great way to make yourself look stupid. Don't try it again. Remember that Ademisk has had a considerable amount of experience with brawl since those vids, and everyone still has to adapt to the newer mechanics. And both he and I have played brawl a fair amount, him more than me. As it turns out, we didn't forget about multiple airdodges.

 

[Spartan1841]

No it doesn't suck.........

 

[Ademisk]

And don't forget, you can't airdodge on a dime. The point of PKT is to trick you into thinking we're not going to hit ourselves, and then do so. This whole conversation is stupid anyway, the entire point was that Ness's PKT2 is better than Lucas's for attacking, WHICH IT IS. The PK Thunder is faster than Lucas's, and the PKT2 does more damage and knockback, with less danger of killing Ness if he were to aim it off stage(due to the fact that Lucas's PKT2 is very long, and hitting people doesn't shorten its length like Ness's....does it?)


And if you're going to bring my video into question, I was purposefully trying to show off PK Thunder's Capabilities in that video. I was kinda spamming it. What Punch did wasn't stupid, he was trying to edgeguard me, and then recover. I caught him in a good position both times I got him, and he airdodged it the one time I didn't. An airdodge that had NO CONSEQUENCES FOR ME, because of the low lag. It was a worthy attempt, and it also wasn't me trying to trick him, it was me needing to get back on stage.....and trying to hit him at the same time. Completely different from using PKT2 soley as an attack. Regardless, his Airdodge was good.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

i'd just like to point out....that....the characters being floatier in brawl makes them EASIER to hit with pk thunder, not harder....if they were less floaty they'd be harder to hit


so pk thunder moving faster PLUS characters being floaty mean.... WOW

but yeah lucas' pk thunder is real slow... and while his recovery is longer his recovery options are MUCH more limited, but then he doesnt need as many options cause his recovery has less lag

so yeah Lucas' pk thunder is pretty defensive compared to ness'...best offensive use for it is edgeguarding, but use on the stage there are too many way for the opponent to just easily get out of the way or attack it(cause its so slow its not hard to see exactly what side it is attack from)

This just in: If you have a yellow pikmin on you, dont use upB!

 

[Smashbros_7]

What a great honor. Simna! Can you explain a proper way to use PK flash?

 

[J Tangle]

There's also the point Lucas can't K.O. with PKT since it passes through opponents with no knock back. For example like many Ness mains know If your opponent goes off screen and Ness hits them with a PKT the knockback will KO the opponent. Now since the case PKT2 has already been explained I'll go on to PK Flash.

In Melee PK Flashes damage area was only focused on the center with the white circle. Now depending on your charge the size/strength of that white circle would change. Also PK Flash would only explode depending on the player stopping the charge or when returning PK Flash to the level of area where Ness unleashed it. I've read many of you say PK Flash sucks which IMO only means your ignorant on how to use Ness properly. From some Ness vids I saw it seemed that PK Flash now can be lowered below Ness (making for some interesting edge guard techniques) and also the the new PK flash only grows to about the size of that white circle. (I guess to get rid of all the extra crap around it, but that to me takes away the intimidation factor) Now my question to you PK masters that have played Ness in Brawl is, is it possible for Ness to actually do that or were my eyes fooling me?

 

[Smashbros_7]

J Yangle, Lucas PKT can juggle people to there death. It Pushes them forward at any direction! ness's pushes you at the opposite direction.



=== O I O

Lets say that The === is the edge or deathzone. PKT is O and I is the opponent. Now if Ness uses PKT hits from the RIGHT then the opponents goes towards the opponent... Now if he hits to the left of the opponent, they move away from him and die. Lucas is from any direction.

PS: PK Flash is my favorite move!

 

[Ademisk]

Simna uses it twice in his combo video. Those are the only times, and ways, you should use it. Characters are interchangable as long as they're similiar situations. The major problem with PK Flash in Brawl is that you can't tightly control it like that. It starts moving waaaay too fast and you can't DI it back as well.


And Lucas's PKT does WAY knockback. I don't know what you're smoking. It's a killer. Better than Ness's because Ness's knockback draws you TOWARDS the PKT, not away from it.

 

[BentoBox]

Dude, don't force the issue. I didn't just say that Ness's PKT is better. So don't put words in my mouth. The fact of the matter is that the two PKTs work best in different ways. Yes, Lucas can use PKT to edgeguard, that's not the question. He cannot chase an opponent at the max range of a Fox fire with the PKT, intentionally miss while maintaining the PKT close to their charge, and then start to double back with it AND hit himself for the PKT2 inwards.

Lucas is better at simply chasing the opponent and hitting them (perhaps several times) with the PKT. Ness can use the PKT to miss or tailwhip the opponent into a trap. Watch Simna's combo vid, especially the PKT edgeguards, and you'll understand why the same tricks don't work with Lucas. He's got his own stuff.

Also, personal attacks are a great way to make yourself look stupid. Don't try it again. Remember that Ademisk has had a considerable amount of experience with brawl since those vids, and everyone still has to adapt to the newer mechanics. And both he and I have played brawl a fair amount, him more than me. As it turns out, we didn't forget about multiple airdodges.

Where did I use personal attacks? And how did I force words into your mouth? You musn't have been following the discussion because someone did say that Ness' was better, to which I replied. You were not the only one arguing, fyi.

''Lucas' pkt2 is better for recovering, Ness' pkt2 is better for attacking.''
'' Ness has more range in every facility, and he can absorb Lucas's PKT without too much trouble, whereas Lucas can't absorb Ness's PKT2 (typo), which is far superior to Lucas's.''

Now instead of being sore for no reason at all, perhaps you should just pay attention? And all I'm doing is bring up the fact that improved aerial mobility and the new mechanics of airdodging make PKT2 harder to land against aware opponents because we were given more tools to deal with such situations. Saying that someone is playing stupid is in no way an insult, but rather a remark.

@Jtangle: Lucas' PKT2 can kill if all the hits connect, as the very last hit does have a significant amount of knockback, as I've said earlier. But yeah, its definately harder to pull off.

 

[J Tangle]

Smashbros_7 said: "J Yangle, Lucas PKT can juggle people to there death. It Pushes them forward at any direction! ness's pushes you at the opposite direction."

awww... I didn't think about juggling with Lucas' PKT. See I was only think about using Ness' PKT to KO opponents that go off the top of the screen (I didn't even keep the reverse knockback in mind) thanks

BentoBox said: "@Jtangle: Lucas' PKT2 can kill if all the hits connect, as the very last hit does have a significant amount of knockback, as I've said earlier. But yeah, its definately harder to pull off."

Yeah... I know that. I was actually taking about PKT(you know the orb).

OH yeah... Ademisk do you know if PK Flash can go lower than Ness' body because I thought I seen a video, but I can't remeber which one it is.

 

[Ademisk]

Where did I use personal attacks? And how did I force words into your mouth? You musn't have been following the discussion because someone did say that Ness' was better, to which I replied. You were not the only one arguing, fyi.

''Lucas' pkt2 is better for recovering, Ness' pkt2 is better for attacking.''
'' Ness has more range in every facility, and he can absorb Lucas's PKT without too much trouble, whereas Lucas can't absorb Ness's PKT2 (typo), which is far superior to Lucas's.''

Now instead of being sore for no reason at all, perhaps you should just pay attention? And all I'm doing is bring up the fact that improved aerial mobility and the new mechanics of airdodging make PKT2 harder to land against aware opponents because we were given more tools to deal with such situations. Saying that someone is playing stupid is in no way an insult, but rather a remark.

@Jtangle: Lucas' PKT2 can kill if all the hits connect, as the very last hit does have a significant amount of knockback, as I've said earlier. But yeah, its definately harder to pull off.

I didn't typo. I was specifically talking about PKT2 there. Ness can absorb Lucas's superiority(the PKT) but Lucas can't absorb his superiority(PKT2). And airdodging isn't any faster than it was, it's just safer. Airdodging PKT2 has not gotten any easier since Melee.

 

[Minipolce]

PK Freez>PK Flash IMO
BUT

Ness PK fire> Lucas FK fire the pillar of flamescannot be stopped!
Also Ness' Absoption Sheild (down B) > Lucas' because lucas is vulnerable to getting hit in the back.
I also think that I would have a hard time killing with Lucas' PKT2

 

[Hardcorenesser]

PK Freez>PK Flash IMO
BUT

Ness PK fire> Lucas FK fire the pillar of flamescannot be stopped!
Also Ness' Absoption Sheild (down B) > Lucas' because lucas is vulnerable to getting hit in the back.
I also think that I would have a hard time killing with Lucas' PKT2

wow... first, Ness's PK fire is only better if the opponent is too stupid to DI out of it. Second, Lucas is NOT vulnerable from behind during his psi magnet. He turns around and absorbs it. Lucas's psi magnet is way better. Lucas can use his psi magnet as a shine-type kinda thing... geez why am i even saying this have you even read any other topics?

 

[Ademisk]

ITs impossible to DI out of in certain cituations.

 

[BentoBox]

Smashbros_7 said: "J Yangle, Lucas PKT can juggle people to there death. It Pushes them forward at any direction! ness's pushes you at the opposite direction."

awww... I didn't think about juggling with Lucas' PKT. See I was only think about using Ness' PKT to KO opponents that go off the top of the screen (I didn't even keep the reverse knockback in mind) thanks

BentoBox said: "@Jtangle: Lucas' PKT2 can kill if all the hits connect, as the very last hit does have a significant amount of knockback, as I've said earlier. But yeah, its definately harder to pull off."

Yeah... I know that. I was actually taking about PKT(you know the orb).

OH yeah... Ademisk do you know if PK Flash can go lower than Ness' body because I thought I seen a video, but I can't remeber which one it is.

Then you were wrong, because the orb does knockback o.o Someone posted a vid of a lucas killing someone with PKT but I'm not gonna bother trying to find it.

@Ademisk: Because PKT2 is as reliable as PKT =/...

 

[J Tangle]

BentoBox did you even read my post?

 

[thesage]

Then you were wrong, because the orb does knockback o.o Someone posted a vid of a lucas killing someone with PKT but I'm not gonna bother trying to find it.

@Ademisk: Because PKT2 is as reliable as PKT =/...

Actually Ness' Pk fire and Lucas' pk fire are for different things. They are both spammable however, plus Ness can set it up off of projectiles and destructible parts of stages. I think the same can be said for pkt as well.

Yes, Lucas' psi magnet is much better than Ness', but Ness' fair is much better than Lucas'.

Pk freeze, and pk flash are both terrible.

And why all the comparisons to Lucas? They are completely different characters. I was the only person at the brawl fest today that played both Ness and Lucas (though I only played Lucas once).

 

[Kiki52]

The whole issue about Ness vs Lucas came when Sakurai said "up until now" and there were many angry heated debates before about Ness not being in, and those who believe his is in are in denial, and now the people who lost that bet that Ness would be cut and Lucas as his replacement are still bitter they lost the argument. That, and like my other thread, some of those people who wanted Ness out wanted Claus in his masked man form to take his place. Though I would doubt that Sakurai would ever take away the original 12. So in a sense this whole Ness vs Lucas business was in part due to the fault of Sakurai or whoever translated the phrase "Up until now" on the DOJO site.

 

[Ademisk]

Then you were wrong, because the orb does knockback o.o Someone posted a vid of a lucas killing someone with PKT but I'm not gonna bother trying to find it.

@Ademisk: Because PKT2 is as reliable as PKT =/...

Actually, Ness's PKT2 is more reliable than his PKT since it has less lag afterwards. Wierd huh? Also, PKT doesn't do reverse knockback anymore, or am I just crazy? I was killing people offstage with it today. It requires more testing, I believe.

Also, PK Flash doesn't suck anymore. It's a moderate to good move now. I was wrong. Used properly, it is much better than it was in Melee. I apologize, Smasher.

 

[Smashbros_7]

PKT2. Trump card.

 

[Zaim2]

Also, PK Flash doesn't suck anymore. It's a moderate to good move now. I was wrong. Used properly, it is much better than it was in Melee. I apologize, Smasher.

I think I saw you saying this on the Lucas board as well, but you didn't get round to saying why. You mind explaining/detailing the uses of the Brawl PK Flash you've discovered so far that have changed your mind so drastically?

This is open to everyone actually finds PK Flash in Brawl useful, as that was the original point of the thread. Apologies if I seem pushy, but Page 1 and 2 doesn't exactly fill one with confidence in regard to using PK flash competitively:

^ You forget Falcon Punch.

Also, PK Flash is pretty much useless in this game as of now.

In other words, PK Flash is one of, if not the worst of Ness's moves.

If you still don't understand me, PK Flash is a terrible move.

And if that isn't clear enough, PK FLASH SUCKS

Not to mention the fact that the thread derails at that point and now there's more discussion/posts on PKT/PKT2 in a PK Flash dedicated topic.

That's why I'm really interested in anybody who has found non gimmick 1v1 uses for this move in Brawl. Try to go into as much detail as you can/care to. Again sorry if this comes across the wrong way, I'm just really interested and want to know as much as I can.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Actually, Ness's PKT2 is more reliable than his PKT since it has less lag afterwards. Wierd huh? Also, PKT doesn't do reverse knockback anymore, or am I just crazy? I was killing people offstage with it today. It requires more testing, I believe.

Also, PK Flash doesn't suck anymore. It's a moderate to good move now. I was wrong. Used properly, it is much better than it was in Melee. I apologize, Smasher.

THANK YOU!!! Finally you agree with me Ademisk. PK flashguard (edge) FTW!

 

[Ademisk]

....No, it's not as good of an Edgeguard as it was in Melee. It has other uses. Like I said, still working on them, but there's definitely potential there. I can't tell you any specific uses, because I haven't had enough time working with it. I found a good place to use it from is the Red Ship on the right side of Tetra's Ship(whose name I forget) because it's difficult for the enemy to get all the way over there, especially with the new extended range of PK Flash, before you can simply cancel it out. If they come over to the ship, grab them midair, and fthrow them the hell off the stage.