Neutral Stages truly neutral?

[Beagle007]

The debate I wish to begin is that of the legality of the term "neutral stages". Is any stage truly neutral or does it benefit the high-tier characters over others. on a flat stage such as Final Destination is it not true that a character such as Toon Link would have an advantage over Bowser, I believe so, what is stopping that Toon Link from crating a wall of projectiles against Boweser, leaving bowser no other option accept to approach through the wall of pointy pain? This seems to be the argument that hopefully will stop the "neutral craze that is plaging tournament play and even friendly play. As a member of GameBattles I would say at lest 75% of the top 200 players usually prefer neutral because they use Fox, Falco, Wolf, Snake, Rob, Pit, or Toon Link. So does that seem that they believe neutrals are fair? Or that their Snake will demolish you on those nice flat stages. I would love a rebutle statement from someone with the opposite view as myself so I can broaden my knowledge on the topic but as of now why can't we all play the stages made for the game! :D Also before this turns into a (what about stages such as RF) obviously RF doesn't belong in competitive play. And as for the stages with gimpable sides; can't we just play honorably? or go for a fair kill instead of a F-throw of the side of flat zone. Let's have fun people! :D

 

[-DXH-]

Neutral Stages are neutral because nothing "special" happens there. Theres no thing that can change the game drasticaly, like The Pirate Ship where u can lose a stock without deserving it. Neutral Stages are bassicly, normal stages.

PS: It has nothing to do with tiers.

 

[theperson91]

This is why there is a mix of neutral stages. Final Destination clearly favors projectile spammers, while Battlefield favors those who are not projectile spammers. These couple of stages, create the fairest battles with little to no outside interference from the stage, though none of them is perfectly fair--thus the reason for DSR in tournaments.

 

[Mic_128]

They are no longer called 'Neutral Stages' for this reason, and have been renamed 'Starter Stages'

 

[Greenstreet]

yer not every level is evenly fair. thats y counterpickin occurs.

 

[Mewter]

They are neutral in the way that nothing special happens there(As has been already ponted out) And you can play based on as much pure skill as possible without dying from lava flows or ultimate chimeras. There are quite a few"Neutral" stages, but you can choose one of them to balance the game out as much as possible.

 

[xXSciophobiaXx]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought neutral meant that all its a stage that gives no character significant benefit over any other character. Hence the favor for either character to win is "neutral"?

They are neutral in the way that nothing special happens there(As has been already ponted out) And you can play based on as much pure skill as possible without dying from lava flows or ultimate chimeras.

If a stage has a event or happening on it, such as Halberd's laser beam, that does not neccessarily mean it is not neutral, that "event" is entirely predictable, and sets players up for throwing them into, seems entirely fair and balanced for me. (Im not sure about the rest of Halberd though, that may not be neutral) Basically, a stage that has a "event" on it could in fact be neutral, (I am not sure if this is the case though)

Sorry if i am a noob or something but thats the way i've learnt it.

 

[smash_bros_brudda]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought neutral meant that all its a stage that gives no character significant benefit over any other character. Hence the favor for either character to win is "neutral"?

If a stage has a event or happening on it, such as Halberd's laser beam, that does not neccessarily mean it is not neutral, that "event" is entirely predictable, and sets players up for throwing them into, seems entirely fair and balanced for me. (Im not sure about the rest of Halberd though, that may not be neutral) Basically, a stage that has a "event" on it could in fact be neutral, (I am not sure if this is the case though)

Sorry if i am a noob or something but thats the way i've learnt it.

I agree with this. why ban stages like Pirate Ship.

you can see them shooting in the background, it keeps you on your toes, but i suppose cus' the air time its counterpick.

frigate orpeion is neutral. when the sirens go, you jump. Duh?

 

[old king coal]

pirate ship you can stall in the water... but the point is that the neutral stages dont have anything that can unfairly screw you over. sure, in haldberg you can play smart and throw the enemy into the laser - but the point is it takes off a stock. its too influencial on a match

 

[Phigo]

I think, a really neutral stage isn't really possible, because, anyone will have a disadvantage to the other one (except they fight with the same char), because non-projectil spammers will have a really hard time in a flat stage like fd and projectile-spammer in non-flat stages like battlefield....
but, in my point of view, this makes a fight more attractive if there are easy ways to escape projectile spammers or if there are events like the bomb in eldin, it shows how good you really are, if you lose just because you unfortunately run into the laser of halberd, the bomb in eldin or something in this way, you should get more practice with your character, these events should be no excuse for good players ...
but this is just the way i think

 

[Pearl Floatzel]

Hence the reasoning behind stage striking. If you're not playing as Falco, or Snake, you strike the stages that give them benefits. Falco can't laser spam on Yoshi's Island, so you strike Final Destination. He strikes Yoshi's Island, so he doesn't have to be that close to you all the time. You strike Smashville, because it's fairly long and there' s only one platform. He strikes Lylat, and you fight on Battlefield.
You narrow the stages you're on down to the fairest for both of your characters. If Smashville was the only stage allowed, or Final Destination was, then there might be a problem.

Some stages are not neutral/starter because they force you to perform certain actions to ensure your safety. The whole point behind Smash is to force your opponent to do something that makes them weaker or in an awkward position. If the stage is doing that to you, your opponent, who may have a character that allows them to avoid these awkward situations (Which is why they counterpicked the stage) they can take advantage of you being forced to do something, e.g. Snake being forced into the air against a DK, or a Kirby.

 

[Agi]

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All of this makes me wonder if this is how the tiers develop...
(Hey look! Marth's a pwnsome CGer! Now, where is it easiest to CG? Final Destination!
(Hey look! Fox has a freaking annoying (but no knockback) Blaster! And Final Destination is perfectly flat! Coincidence?
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[Arturito_Burrito]

Did everyone just decided to ignore the mod? They are actually called random starters now, at least people should be calling them that not neutrals.

 

[theperson91]

I personally think that FD is one of the most unbalanced stages, though few would agree with me, but I do think that the rest of the neutral stages are fairly neutral.

 

[Mic_128]

Did everyone just decided to ignore the mod? They are actually called random starters now, at least people should be calling them that not neutrals.

you'd be suprised how often that happens. They just feel the need to rant, I guess.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

****, mic posted again before i could really rant about ignoring the mod. But i will leave with a piece of advice for all the children and n00bs here:

THEY AREN'T "NEUTRAL" ANYMORE READ WHAT THE GUY WITH A RED NAME SAYS

 

[theTide]

I had made a custom stage the other day that I find most "neutral", called the Arena. It is a sort of "U" shape, and it is more fair than other stages because in the bottom center, an FD-like place is there for projectile dealers, where as people like Ganondorf who need an aerial advantage can climb on the sides of the "U", giving every character what they need.

 

[cjrocker]

I had made a custom stage the other day that I find most "neutral", called the Arena. It is a sort of "U" shape, and it is more fair than other stages because in the bottom center, an FD-like place is there for projectile dealers, where as people like Ganondorf who need an aerial advantage can climb on the sides of the "U", giving every character what they need.

put it up here

 

[Greenstreet]

you'd be suprised how often that happens. They just feel the need to rant, I guess.

lol on this post. power to the mods

 

[Lutukor]

I think, a really neutral stage isn't really possible, because, anyone will have a disadvantage to the other one (except they fight with the same char), because non-projectil spammers will have a really hard time in a flat stage like fd and projectile-spammer in non-flat stages like battlefield....
but, in my point of view, this makes a fight more attractive if there are easy ways to escape projectile spammers or if there are events like the bomb in eldin, it shows how good you really are, if you lose just because you unfortunately run into the laser of halberd, the bomb in eldin or something in this way, you should get more practice with your character, these events should be no excuse for good players ...
but this is just the way i think

This has been said before, but starter stages are not about who gets slight advantages due to the actual layout (Projectiles on FD, aerials on BF). Starter stages are picked so because there is no special event or occurrence that will majorly hinder your playing ability or make you lose stocks indirectly. The opponent may throw you ten feet towards the center, but the bomb in Bridge of Eldin could kill you instantly and the opponent did not directly cause that death. He just set it up for a quick/cheap kill. The laser on Halberd has something of the same effect, as well as the bombs on the Pirate Ship, the minigame effects on WarioWare, and multiple other stages.

 

[MaxThunder]

i'm just happy as long as i can get away from thing that eat me, grab and throw me, shoot me, blow up, run me down, turning the screen upside down or mirroring the screen...

... and on flat stages i for some reason have a problem whith slow characters...(too bad my brither mains ike and ganon and is allways fighting on eldin bridge...)

 

[Black_Heretic]

lol on this post. power to the mods

I thought they already had it >.>

 

[Oracle]

No stage can be completely neutral when the characters are different.

 

[iEatPikmin]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought neutral meant that all its a stage that gives no character significant benefit over any other character. Hence the favor for either character to win is "neutral"?

If a stage has a event or happening on it, such as Halberd's laser beam, that does not neccessarily mean it is not neutral, that "event" is entirely predictable, and sets players up for throwing them into, seems entirely fair and balanced for me. (Im not sure about the rest of Halberd though, that may not be neutral) Basically, a stage that has a "event" on it could in fact be neutral, (I am not sure if this is the case though)

Sorry if i am a noob or something but thats the way i've learnt it.

WarioWare is pretty much the only one I can think of that is completely random. You could become a giant while your opponent is invincible. You could get healed 3% while your opponent becomes giant. You could be attempting to recover, and the stage changes into one of those events, so you're trapped under the stage. And something REALLY random that happened to me was when my friend hit me and I turned giant right before landing off-screen which caused me to die.

I agree with this. why ban stages like Pirate Ship.

you can see them shooting in the background, it keeps you on your toes, but i suppose cus' the air time its counterpick.

frigate orpeion is neutral. when the sirens go, you jump. Duh?

I read this stage legality thread by Amazing Ampharos sometime ago, and I think he said that Pirate Ship had extreme character bias toward GaW. GaW could hide underwater when the bombs started pelting the ship, and some other stuff I can't quite remember.