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Captain Awesome

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EDIT: I fixed up some errors and cleared up some confusing parts, I typed this pretty late so forgive me.

I seen so much seething hate over a list! An order of names.

Why all the rage and vitriol? Is it because you are upset that they characters you choose to play as supposedly "sucks"? Is it because this is a "fighting game" (HA!) which is essentially filled with characters that you have nostalgia ties to?

I honestly think this is a reason why these boards seep with such discontent.

Fun fact: All characters that made it into Brawl (with the exception of Sonic because he was added late and with extreme fan pressure) are generally agreed upon to be awesome in their own ways. Even characters like G&W and ROB, who both have huge ties to gaming (G&W for respect and R.O.B because he essentially saved Nintendo). Boohoo! Your childhood favorite VG character doesn't perform well in a game that he's not originally in.

See how dumb that sounds?

Honestly, you are at Smashboards because you are learning to play COMPETITIVELY. To participate and hopefully win tournaments. If your here to learn to do to little tricks to beat your friends, then you are sadly in the wrong mentality and in the wrong place.

If your playing in a tournament with a substantial prize, it should be logical to choose the character which has a proven to be a winner.

I'm also not saying play only high tier characters! If you want to win with an extra challenge, more power to you! Honestly! I know some people who do this. Play whoever you feel comfortable with. However, understand and accept that when you choose to play a low tier character, it is expected to have to work harder to achieve the same level of victory. Now by all means, if you enjoy challenges and like to work harder for your victory, by all means go ahead and play said character.

I enjoy a challenge to win as well in Friendlies and even non-serious tournaments (Winner gets a bag of Doritos and a coupon for Subway!)

In friendlies in SC II, I played Raphael and Astaroth cause they was awesome. In SF 3rd, I play Q because I love hard hitting characters and love finding unique ways to land his slow but strong moves. This applies to Brawl as well, in friendlies I play Ike and Ganondorf. They're awesome and they hit like tanks.

However! Some of us don't want to work harder in a tournament setting, so we choose to pickup characters who have an established winning record. If I'm going to enter in a 1v1 tournament with a prize, I don't want to handicap myself. This is my choice. I will choose a character that has proven to be an effective tournament caliber choice. I should not be treated any lesser from people who choose to play low tiers. As well, I shouldn't be shunned for "jumping on the bandwagon"

This brings up another point: There is nothing wrong with bandwagoning. It's as much MY character as it is yours! I don't care if your played all the MGS and written fanfictions, (just an example) I'm equally entitled to this character as much as you are. This sense of entitlement because "you liked him and chose to main him when he was announced" is trivial and childish.

Yes, I understand that picking up said character won't result in an auto-win, however I will practice with him to become good even if he wasn't my original choice because he has proven to be an established winner! If another character shoots up and becomes super godly cause of a tech or whatever, I will pick him up too!

Another thing people need to realize: Some characters perform a lot better in crowded environments than in 1v1 play. Ike, Ganondorf, Link, etc... all perform better in 2v2's and FFA's. Some low tier characters are really popular in 2v2's because this is where they really shine, and vice versa! Some high tiers have trouble when they have more than one person pressuring them.

So in conclusion, stop getting mad and uncloud your judgment. Stop being such a hateful and bickering community and learn the simple lessons other fighting game community's learn. A tier list is a suggestion, that's all. It is not law forcing you to play certain characters. Merely some of us follow these suggestions!
 

BurningCrusader777

Smash Journeyman
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New Jersey
I'd blame it more on the huge amount of casuals who don't understand Tier Lists, but this topic is truth.

EDIT: Except for G&W sucking. G&W rocks.
 

Browny

Smash Hater
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This brings up another point: There is nothing wrong with bandwagoning.
Yes there is. Not only does it give the character a bad rep, it always results in thier respective forums being clogged up with ******** threads, since its always the stupid people who bandwagon
 

Pure-???

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 24, 2008
Messages
241
G&W rocks! Where does it say he sucks, I'll correct it.
Fun fact: All characters that made it into Brawl (with the exception of Sonic because he was added late and with extreme fan pressure) are generally agreed upon to be awesome in their own ways. Even characters like G&W and ROB, who both have huge ties to gaming (G&W for respect and R.O.B because he essentially saved Nintendo). Boohoo! your childhood favorite VG character doesn't perform well in a game that he's not originally in.
That paragraph kind of seems to imply it. That's really about it.
 

KernelColonel

Smash Journeyman
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365
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Blahblahblah who cares I play ROB because I like ROB not because thirty thousand other people like him

Play characters that YOU'RE good with

fools
 

Uffe

Smash Hero
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Fresno
When you choose to play a low tier character, it is expected to have to work harder to achieve the same level of victory. Now by all means, if you enjoy working hard for your victory and like a challenge, by all means go ahead and play said character. I'm also not saying play only high tier characters! If you want to win with an extra challenge, more power to you! Honestly!
This is why I don't play as characters that are easy. I'd rather take the time to learn low teir over god teir because well, in my opinion a god teir hardly takes any effort. And seeing how a recent post of a teir list, Meta Knight comes in as god teir, I can see why. He's almost too effortless to learn.
 

MarKO X

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Not always. I'm sure plenty of good players decided to try out Snake or Metaknight once it was discovered how good they were.
Perfect bandwagon example...

"I used to main Fox. He's solid in Brawl. But then, I found out that Snake is teh toptierz in Brawl. So I decided to main him." - some random guy who doesn't necessarily exist but probably explained the mentality of a number of people who didn't main Snake (or MK) from the start.
 

Banee

Smash Cadet
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May 3, 2008
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Perfect bandwagon example...

"I used to main Fox. He's solid in Brawl. But then, I found out that Snake is teh toptierz in Brawl. So I decided to main him." - some random guy who doesn't necessarily exist but probably explained the mentality of a number of people who didn't main Snake (or MK) from the start.
Are you implying something is wrong with that?


And, this thread is probably the best thing on smashboards.
 

ShadowLink84

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Mainly because sometimes people use top tier characters even though they are not god with them.
Hence they get their arse pounded.

Most of the people who bandwagon use their favorite characters then switch to top tier characters when they want to win.
unfortunately they usually lose cause they don't take the time to become good with the character.

Even then its rather annoying when someone has an 80:20 advantage over myself despite me being the waaaay better player but thats a whole nother discussion concerning the balance of gameplay and stuff.
 

Pearl Floatzel

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
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152
Use the characters that you like. The worst thing in the world is someone who is really good at a low-tier character switching to Snake and then sucking. If you're going to switch, switch to someone you're good at, not who you think will automatically make you win.
 

Doggalina

Smash Lord
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Jul 25, 2005
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In Melee, I played Falcon and Marth. Marth was higher tier than Falcon, but I could win more with Falcon. Why? Because Falcon fit my style and mentality like a glove.

In Brawl, I originally mained Falcon, but I have since switched to DK. Why? DK fits my same aggressive, hard hitting style I used with Melee Falcon.

Moral of the story: Using a higher tier character doesn't automatically make you better. Using a higher tier character well makes you better.

Oh, and arguing over tier placement is a valid argument. Tiers are supposed to be as objective as possible, so arguing WITH FACTS is completely fine.

Please, don't just post "Pika should be higher" and leave. Support your statement.
 

PCHU

Smash Lord
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I still don't see why they made Gn'W and ROB beasts in both 1vs1 and 2vs2.
And I like Nintendo as much as the next, but couldn't ROB make it as an assist trophy?
I mean, he's a robot.
A very annoying robot.

Not saying that I hate them because they're good, but well....
Tons of characters we wanted didn't get in, and they shove in these two.
They just don't fit.
I'm glad they helped Nintendo, but.....
It doesn't change the fact that several people don't like him.
I know some do, and they strive for good rep.
I'm saying a robot and a 2-D man shouldn't dominate like this.

And I don't care about tiers.
I care about truly balanced characters.
Ike is slow and powerful.
Seems good.
Sonic is fast and weak.
Seems good.
I can understand Game and Watch to an extent; strong but light.
But he's also rather fast with his movement and attacking.
ROB is.......awkward.
He's powerful with a good recovery.
He's not the easiest character to send off.

But nobody cares about your opinion in this vast world.
If you're rooting for tiers, I don't care.
Ike loves to kill.
 

MarKO X

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Are you implying something is wrong with that?


And, this thread is probably the best thing on smashboards.
No, just stating the facts, take it the way you want to. Whether it's bad or not is your opinion.
 

xX Boezy Xx

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It's sad that this intelligent summary on your view of tier lists and competitiveness will probabl;y soon be buried under discussions revolving around how broken Metaknight is, or how unbalanced the game is. Oh well, kudos to you for writing that. It was a good read.
 

ROOOOY!

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Oh please. Nobody cares that their character is low/bottom tier. The fact that we still play them illustrates that much.
People who play characters such as Yoshi/Sonic/Ganon or whatever are more bothered about the attitude of some people who regard the tier list to be the almighty truth.
Nub sees tierlist. Nub sees Snake at top. Nub sees bottom tier characters. Nub sees bottom tier characters don't win that many tournaments. Nub assumes that everybody playing the 'worse' characters in the game suck.
Bandwagoning (not that I see much of a problem with it) and tier whoreishness go hand in hand. They always will.

Good first topic by the way. This isn't really critiscm at all, just my feelings at the topic at hand.
 

Tristan_win

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The fact of the matter is tier determine how popular a character will become and because of that will also dictate who's meta game will develop the fastest.

When a character is label high or even middle they are consider playable in a tournament setting so when someone ask "who should I use?" or "who counter X?" then they are recommended. Now there nothing wrong with that if the tier list was 100% accurate but this is not the case and this wont be for many years to come.

The reason why people are fighting for their spot on the tier list is because they don't want their character that they as see as good to be label poorly. Because of this there is a struggle over positioning which causes conflict.

>:3 Sheik/Zelda for high tier!
 

Banee

Smash Cadet
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The fact of the matter is tier determine how popular a character will become and because of that will also dictate who's meta game will develop the fastest.
That's very interesting. I never considered that before.

Thanks for that, I now understand the rationale behind the barrage of "<insert obviously terrible character> for high tier!"
 

rageagainst

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
257
The fact of the matter is tier determine how popular a character will become and because of that will also dictate who's meta game will develop the fastest.

When a character is label high or even middle they are consider playable in a tournament setting so when someone ask "who should I use?" or "who counter X?" then they are recommended. Now there nothing wrong with that if the tier list was 100% accurate but this is not the case and this wont be for many years to come.

The reason why people are fighting for their spot on the tier list is because they don't want their character that they as see as good to be label poorly. Because of this there is a struggle over positioning which causes conflict.

>:3 Sheik/Zelda for high tier!
this is the truth and I'm glad someone agrees with me, maybe melee Mewtwo had an adv tech that allowed him to teleport to any part of the screen, the world will never know.

I think Sheik/Zelda deserves high, Zelda high mid atleast (Sheik herself, mid at most)
 

Elektrik

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 16, 2008
Messages
18
This post needs to be stickied; there are sooo many people on smashboards who need to read this.

And I fail to understand why people hate it when there character is underrated. Isn't that an advantage?
 

L__

Smash Master
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You guys for can you honestly stop repeating the same things over and over? I came to this thread ready to find an interesting discussion. Instead I found about 10 people saying this thread needs to be stickied and how lower tiered characters can win over higher tiers. I get it, the people of smash get it, we don't need to read it for several pages straight. Thank you for your time.
 

Captain Awesome

Smash Rookie
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Jul 16, 2008
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You guys for can you honestly stop repeating the same things over and over? I came to this thread ready to find an interesting discussion. Instead I found about 10 people saying this thread needs to be stickied and how lower tiered characters can win over higher tiers. I get it, the people of smash get it, we don't need to read it for several pages straight. Thank you for your time.
I apologize if this had been repeated, but from they way the boards were, I thought it hadn't been said. If it has, I apologize to you and everyone.

Hopefully you did enjoy the post. However, I just seems that people hate bandwagoning some much more here than other fighting boards I've been too. It seems strange.
 

L__

Smash Master
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I apologize if this had been repeated, but from they way the boards were, I thought it hadn't been said. If it has, I apologize to you and everyone.

Hopefully you did enjoy the post. However, I just seems that people hate bandwagoning some much more here than other fighting boards I've been too. It seems strange.
Not you, all those posts that came after your posts. No offense to you at all.

I tip my hat off to you Capt. Awesome. The thread you provided for many to read deserves some special recognition. (OMG I'm restating everyone's opinions. )
 

PK Hexagon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
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157
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Dallas, TX
The fact of the matter is tier determine how popular a character will become and because of that will also dictate who's meta game will develop the fastest.

Eh. I've always hated that point. Mainly because I go to the MK boards and what do I see? A Meta-Knight guild, and threads asking whats behind MK's mask. The Snake boards are better, but barely (Snake is mostly improvisation anyway).

And then, I see that Ike's character board has 21,000 posts. Sonic's has 32,000. Lucario's board has Inner Fire, a series of informative videos about Lucario, and UndrDog does something similar for Pit.

That doesn't seem like a lack of metagame progression to me. You can't really use that point as a reason to why Snake and MK are godly. Their communities are sub-par, lol.
10copypastas
 

Kiwikomix

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 3, 2007
Messages
927
Location
Ames, IA
While I agree that most of this needed to be said, many people have said it before. The fact that you have achieved good critical reception from 08 joiners proves that it is something that needs to be explained mostly to newer people, something that is instinct to older members but virtually unknown to newer ones. It's a lot like the "Luigi misfire" threads in Melee... it will just keep getting reposted just to verify its existence until the mod makes a sticky saying it's true. Oh well, c'est la vie.

But yeah, I use Yoshi and although his tier position doesn't at all bother me, it's pretty annoying that no one really makes the effort to find out more about him, but instead looks at the tier list and decides then and there that he's awful. The same goes for characters like Sheik, who is stuck with the stigma of "nerfed" and will therefore have a much smaller fanbase... while, in reality, she's a good character.
 

LP4Life666

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
427
Capt. Awesome, your post assumes too much about us. While it is hard to deny that: Yes, people do care about the tier system (a LOT i might add), not all of us are here at Smashboards to learn how to play competitively. For example, I'm here because I love Smash, and can talk about all day...even to a bunch random people. I don't necessarily want to learn all of <insert your character here>'s techs, but given that people put so much effort into these threads, I will probably end up learning a lot about the game anyway. Smashboards is as much of a place to hang out and talk about our favorite game as it is a haven for competitive players.

We've established a long time ago that the tier system is irrelevant if one player is simply a lot better than another. But that doesn't stop people from lightening up about the whole thing, unfortunately. :ohwell:
 

ADHD

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
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7,194
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New Jersey
You can't win a tourney with decent players, as long as one metaknight or snake is there.

Prove me wrong someone, I don't think even azen or mew2king can do that.
 

SinkingHigher

Smash Lord
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
1,886
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Canada
The tier list is complete bull. I find it interesting to watch other's who find the list interesting fight over it.

Unless the same person "masters" all characters, and fighters each character against one another, there is no accurate way. Even if there was, for f*cks sake, who the h*ll gives a ****?

Whatever. Let them wallow in their deluded worlds where what other people say actually means something.
 
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