Mr.Random
Smash Ace
Guys are we trying to get better or what? ANALYZE ZE VIDEO!
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NEW AND IMPROVED MARIO MATCHUP THREAD
- Thread starter Mr.Random
- Start date
TFerg
Smash Apprentice
Thinking about pulling a Boss and just busting out Diddy for matchups that are hard for me. Haha
KinGly
Smash Journeyman
I've got a friend who mains jigglypuff so I know that matchup like the back of my hand. I think it's about 50-50, maybe 55-45 in Mario's favor, but it's really even. I'd write my thoughts about it for the main post, but I'm on an ipad so it's kinda annoying. The main points of it are:
-cape doesn't serve much use, so our amazing gimping game has left us, I'd suggest multiple back airs for edgeguarding.
-our combo game is severely limited due to the characters floatiness.
-jigglypuff will have to dive pretty deep to WoP mario, seeing as Mario's recovery was buffed so significantly, so you can counter edgeguarding with bair (bair's really good in this matchup)
-I might be wrong about this, but it seems like jiggs vertical recovery is kinda weak, so I assume spiked fair is useful off stage (I can't test this my friends out of state)
-jiggs can approach over fireballs, but she's kinda vulnerable if you can catch her on the ground with a fireball.
I can't think of anything else at the moment, I haven't played him since summer started, so I might be forgetting some things. I'll probably post again when I can get on my PC.
-cape doesn't serve much use, so our amazing gimping game has left us, I'd suggest multiple back airs for edgeguarding.
-our combo game is severely limited due to the characters floatiness.
-jigglypuff will have to dive pretty deep to WoP mario, seeing as Mario's recovery was buffed so significantly, so you can counter edgeguarding with bair (bair's really good in this matchup)
-I might be wrong about this, but it seems like jiggs vertical recovery is kinda weak, so I assume spiked fair is useful off stage (I can't test this my friends out of state)
-jiggs can approach over fireballs, but she's kinda vulnerable if you can catch her on the ground with a fireball.
I can't think of anything else at the moment, I haven't played him since summer started, so I might be forgetting some things. I'll probably post again when I can get on my PC.
KinGly
Smash Journeyman
I'm just updating this to say that the last time I played him was about a week after my first tournament, and I've learned a lot since then, so this analysis might be better for lower levels of play, not sure though, we could've been great
deadjames
Smash Lord
I can't think of a single MU in which Diddy does better than Mario. He has like all the same bad MUs, Mewtwo and Marth wreck Diddy just as hard, and there are even some characters Diddy does worse against, like Falco, Wolf, Sonic, Link, Pit, Falcon, and Peach.
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KinGly
Smash Journeyman
Are there any characters that are kinda easy to pick up and have good mu's against Marth? I would think m2 and DK do well against him.
Also, is mario vs Roy as bad as mario vs Marth?
Also, is mario vs Roy as bad as mario vs Marth?
GeZ
Smash Lord
I think the Mario v Marth MU is manageable if you want to do it. Like, I've done it against players who are far better than me and have been playing longer. You just gotta play like you're outplaying them the whole time and rely on being god like.
Like use hard reads exclusively. Establish a toehold in their head. I don't think Mario v Roy is as bad. Mario gets to combo the **** out of Roy's booty for free.
Like use hard reads exclusively. Establish a toehold in their head. I don't think Mario v Roy is as bad. Mario gets to combo the **** out of Roy's booty for free.
deadjames
Smash Lord
Sheik, and Link both have good MUs against Marth and are relatively easy to pick up.
KinGly
Smash Journeyman
Thanks, I've been meaning to pick up sheik in melee, and links op as mario, so I'll probably pick them both up.
deadjames
Smash Lord
Neither of those characters are OP, Sheik is better than both of them imo.
erasmorpheous
Smash Cadet
Mario vs Roy is much better than Marth in my opinion. Decent Marth's destroy me and I have faced many Roy's in bracket and don't lose the matchup under one condition, and that is that your tag isn't Sethlon lol.
I am not allowed to post links here because I haven't posted ten times but if you do a youtube search for "iab15 erasmorpheous vs sethlon" you can see me play against the best PM Roy player. I do magical things game one! And I think he is about as hard as that matchup can get so if my unknown tag can do well against his Roy then that should make everyone feel better about that particular matchup.
KinGly
Smash Journeyman
I was there. I was the guy who told you that you had to face Sethlon after you beat someone else.
GeZ
Smash Lord
That's pretty sweet.
AkashSky
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2013
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I just wanna say that this thread is amazing, and I wish the Lucario (My main) Thread had a matchup thread of this quality. With that said, whenever you guys want to discuss the mario V. Lucario matchup, I'd be more than happy to share my insight!
Xcite
Smash Apprentice
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Boss just got straight up outplayed. Nothing much to analyze. Coney was on point with his reads and punishes.
Mr.Random
Smash Ace
I want to fill out the rest but I've been fighting the same ****ing characters so I'm not getting much MU experience with everyone else. Can someone go into a little more detail with the Fox and Falco MU. Those are hard and I'm still not sure how to fight them.
Hinichii.ez.™
insincere personality
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If I get to play those characters again, I'll make a post one them. If you go to a decent stage for CG and can get the setup, that's half the battle. Super good setup would be cross up dair and just do it. Cross up dair god like for setting up the CG. Then get some jab dsmashs in, along with some stray hits, fireball from a safe distance and one spaced fsmash and that's a stock.
EDIT: going to start playing USFIV soon, so I don't know how much time will be spent on PM for me.
EDIT: going to start playing USFIV soon, so I don't know how much time will be spent on PM for me.
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KinGly
Smash Journeyman
This might be a dumb question, but do we have to have any credentials to be taken seriously for mu advice (for instance, I assume that "master of mario" wouldn't be taken seriously and put on the main post)? I also wouldnt think my advice should be taken seriously at the top levels (at least not yet) cause I'm still kinda new.
I just think it would be nice to know how good a player has to be before he/she can do a serious analysis of a matchup.
I just think it would be nice to know how good a player has to be before he/she can do a serious analysis of a matchup.
AkashSky
Smash Apprentice
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Any level of player can give insightful matchup analysis as long as they are insightful about the game. Take day9 and sc2 for example. Day 9 is no where near a top player.
As long as you have knowledge about the game your analysis can be helpful
proxibomb
Smash Clown
I wish I could put a highly detailed description on what Mario works well with, and who he does bad against. I'll say though, Mario playing with Toon Link is a tough game. Toon Link's up-b sends mario flying, along with using grabs. My only counter to Toon Link is to cape bombs, use the air time that Toon Link gets from his bombs, and down-smash Toon Link away from the stage. Use ledge guarding well, and Toon Link won't make it.
Mario vs. Toon Link is a terrible idea on Final Destination and any small stages like Yoshi's Story and WarioWare. This is my experience, so I might be wrong/others might disagree with me.
Mario vs. Toon Link is a terrible idea on Final Destination and any small stages like Yoshi's Story and WarioWare. This is my experience, so I might be wrong/others might disagree with me.
erasmorpheous
Smash Cadet
DI DI DI DI DI
I have been zero to death'd by lucario because of bad DI. Mario's crouch cancel is his greatest attribute in this matchup, so crouch cancelled downsmashes should get you some mileage. When he has you in a ground combo DI down and away and in the air DI up and away I believe. Your crouch cancel should win you this matchup in my opinion.
KinGly
Smash Journeyman
Yeah, lucario has a lot of weak hits and very few quick options that beat out cc. Also I've heard that mario is an odd combo weight so that usually gives lucario a hard time.
erasmorpheous
Smash Cadet
I realized you are probably playing lucario so I don't know what to tell you advice wise on that side lol. Beware the downsmash and if you ever die from a cape in some way you probably could have prevented it so they shouldn't be common.
erasmorpheous
Smash Cadet
Fireballs make their lives hard, capes are possible because of their meh recoveries, especially falco's my goodness his is bad. Up throw chain grab is beautiful. Beware of fox's upsmash. If they are going full aggressive slow them down a bit with fireballs. Toward higher percents I do a downthrow to forward smash to get a nice clean hit and if they're offstage even better.
deadjames
Smash Lord
Mario vs Tink is even imo, if you're losing to him, you're just getting outplayed straight up, also Tink is bad on small stages, he can't run away and he's going to be dying a lot earlier than Mario, especially since Mario has superior kill power. Also, I'm pretty sure you can't cape bombs, the cape does enough damage to make them explode, you can however catch them or powershield them.
In my experience CCing against Lucario is a really bad idea, he can just cancel into another move before you have time to do anything.
proxibomb
Smash Clown
When you cape bombs you don't take damage, although if Toon Link is close enough, oddly enough, he'll take damage yet not Mario. Shielding and grabbing is also a thing. Toon Link might be bad at small stages, but ledge guarding makes him a tough player. I'm pretty sure of that. My only dangers with Toon Link really is the grabs, his up-b, and any combos from a boomerang. As you said, I might just being outplayed.
KinGly
Smash Journeyman
I don't know why it took this long to occur to me, but I figured I'd post the link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oM2viGrB2k&list=PLFXOgPi6_N5SegyJaeBd5f6UOmzo28XaL&index=22
JesteRace
Smash Journeyman
I am a Link main who's been considering picking up Mario more seriously as a secondary because he seems to even out a lot of Link's disadvantages. Sonic is, by far, Link's worst match up, and ZSS sucks too. How does Mario fare against them in your guys' opinions?
KinGly
Smash Journeyman
I hate fighting sonic, but I think the mu is still a bit in Mario's favor. To my knowledge, fireballs shut down sonics approach options, and they're not as punishable as links bow or boomerang.
I've got a friend who secondaries ZSS. It seems like mario does pretty well. You have to have pretty good DI, and watch your spacing, cause they'll look for the side b or grab, but if you can avoid those, they're extremely punishable. ZSS's only projectile is pretty slow moving, but you don't want to shield it, cause the shield stun leaves you open for a grab, it's better to either cape it or jump over it and fireball. Speaking of cape, it doesn't do a lot against tether characters as far as gimping recoveries. For all tether characters (as of 3.0, they're getting nerfed in 3.5) I just grab ledge and either punish the laggy jump with a fair, or drop from the ledge with a bair. Also, you don't want to be on a platform above ZSS, cause she can hit you with a grounded up b, and it'll spike you and force you to tech, so she'll get another.
Edit: ZSS can psyche you out with these super long combos, but in reality, she doesn't have many strong hits, so the percentage that she gets from these is pretty minuscule, and she doesn't have many kill options once she gets that percentage.
Also, if anyone wants to correct me/provide more information on the mu, there are probably players with more experience on the sonic mu. I just know that I always lose it no matter how bad the sonic is.
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KinGly
Smash Journeyman
Does anyone know how the mario vs samus mu plays out. I can't tell if its advantage mario, or if I've just been playing bad Samus's in tourney. I honestly don't see why samus is that good in pm or melee.
Also, anyone know how to fight falcon? Every falcon I've fought I've come really close to beating, but he always pulls it out in game 3.
Also, anyone know how to fight falcon? Every falcon I've fought I've come really close to beating, but he always pulls it out in game 3.
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deadjames
Smash Lord
Link definitely beats ZSS, you just need to study the MU more, as for Sonic, Mario wrecks him, but Link doesn't do that bad against him either. Projectiles make Sonic's life hell and Link has tons of big meaty hitboxes that Sonic can't challenge, just don't over-commit and you should be fine, imo Link's worst MU is probably either Falco or Sheik.
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deadjames
Smash Lord
I think Mario beats Samus, but you have to rush her down, it's really annoying if you give her the opportunity to missile camp. As for Falcon, it's kind of a tough MU, he combos Mario really hard and is much faster. Fireballs help a lot, but don't be too reckless with them because all of Falcon's aerials can eat them; you can convert a grab into upwards of 50% with a uthrow, but for some weird reason you can't CG him for as long anymore even though the PMBR insists that his weight and fall speed are the same as Melee. Try your best to never be above Falcon, nothing Mario has can beat his uair. For that matter don't try to challenge his aerials in general, and capitalize when you have him offstage, Falcon's recovery is garbage and he should be dead any time you get him offstage, you can cape or bair his up-b, or cape his side-b (don't try to challenge his side-b with anything else or you'll get meteor smashed and probably die).
edit: Oops didn't mean to double post.
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NinKenDo64
Smash Apprentice
Just wanted to comment saying im loving the detail this thread holds. As a fellow Mario main I can appreciate the love for the plumber cuz I constantly get heat about how broken fireballs are in my region.Btw I barely read anything about using cape for combating projectiles. The hitbox stays out for a day and can change up some matchups such as falco and link but thats just from my tourney experience.
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Hinichii.ez.™
insincere personality
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I recommend, not using cape on bombs. Using the cape is a laggy option and should only be used for things like, Samus's full charged nB, Lucario's Spirit Bomb, m2's fully charged nB, recoveries and a few other things. A rule of thumb when using the cape, is to use it on options that are also laggy. A bomb is not one of those options.
What kinda of problems are you having? I recently played the MU again, so I sorta remember the highlights about that.
He chain grabs them both, beats them in natural, they have a hard time dealing with fireball and has a easier time getting edge guards off. Most kill options work in both MU. Sonic v Mario is like 60:40 mario's fav. ZSS.. could be 70:30 maybe 65:35. She really has no options against the fireballs and is an amazing combo weight, in addition to her fall speed.
With samus, you wanna go to small stage and play aggressive. Don't use fireballs. When you use a projectile, so can she. Her ice form is a *****. If you go to a large stage, the fight is more about attrition. You can't get much off of your hits past like 30-40 and her missiles can lead to horrid situations for you when you, if you get hit. She also has the platform missile cancels which are nearly impossible to stop if you let her distance herself from you.
What kinda of problems are you having? I recently played the MU again, so I sorta remember the highlights about that.
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cod3kill
Smash Cadet
Mario actually does really well against Toon Link for somewhat similar reasons to Roy. Mario can crouch cancel pretty much all of his combo starters into a downsmash, his fireballs beat all of Tinks projectiles, and I think there is a chain grab on him at lower percents.
Also crouch cancelling against Lucario works really well, he doesn't have many options to break it and even if he does try to followup with more moves he usually just eats a Down smash anyway. I play a pretty good Lucario player often. Also Lucario's shield is straight up terrible, and gets shield poked by down smash a lot. I have done aerials into jab to down smash before while the Lucario player was shielding the entire time and they have gotten shield poked. Lucario also has sub par approach options so smart Fireballs will take you a long way.
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deadjames
Smash Lord
Fireballs don't beat bombs, which are Tink's primary combo starter and can't be CC'd, nor can a sweet-spotted dtilt, and I still disagree that CC'ing against Lucario is a good idea, I would equate it to CC'ing against Peach. Not to mention any smart player that notices you're CC'ing a lot will just grab you.
cod3kill
Smash Cadet
Fireballs cause the bomb to explode right? In my mind that kinda cancels it out, if the bomb gets thrown close enough to where you eat the explosion there was probably a better option than fireball.
It's not nearly as devastating as peach, but I see what you are saying. It's just he cant really get anything started if you crouch cancel into a move. Crouch cancelling isn't unbeatable, it just works well on most of his moves.
deadjames
Smash Lord
That's not true that Lucario can't get anything started if you CC though, if you CC against a Lucario that knows what they're doing, they're just going to keep cancelling into other moves before you can get a move out and you're going to eat a ton of damage, possibly even die.
GeZ
Smash Lord
I've had that same experience trying to cc Lucario. They just keep slapping me before I can do anything. CC jab combo might work though.