New AT: Ledge Float Cancelling /w new video!

[EdreesesPieces]

Just for everyones information, nobody cares about who discovered anything besides the people who did it themselves. Does anyone remember who first discovered wavedashing? Nobody cares, this is a discussion for how to use the tactic and to go more in depth about it. I don't see why everytime someone makes a thread to go into some depth about Peach's tricks (whether it be Dark's pillars or this trick) everyone has to get into a discussion about its origins. It's not important. I can understand if there is a bunch of discussion on something already (like say, Peach's "wavedash" which gets mentioned every week as a new discovery - this technique in contrast is barely discussed around here ) What's important is:

(1) Is this useful
(2) how to do it
(3) how can it be used, when do use it
(4) combos it can be used for
(5) mind games, etc
(6) etc etc

 

[Niko_K]

Im putting together the video right now. Showing multi things you can do with this and how it becomes useful.

Though I think the main thing is quite obvious, this can keep things flowing and you can now use your entire moveset from the ledge.

 

[Morrigan]

Ledge Float Cancel Applications

Niko, I guess you found another way to capture?

 

[Niko_K]

Just released the new video. Hope you guys see potential in it like I do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CxLFT77-OY

 

[EdreesesPieces]

The video makes me like the technique much more, I didn't realize it made it so fast.

 

[Villi]

I wonder how much invincibility you actually have by doing this... also if you have more/less/the same when you're over 100%...

 

[Niko_K]

Im most likely not doing it as fast as it could be done either. Theres very little time in the instafloat animation.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Right...I want to check here for actual confirmation

By doing this, you kee your invinciblity frames and are free to do any of the stuff mentioned as you please? Attacks would pass right through me and I'd have the freedom to do just about anything I wanted?

 

[Niko_K]

You keep them for a certain amount of time, that I haven't looked into.

 

[Morrigan]

Yeah, you still got those frames when your attack's hitbox comes out, so if they try to interrupt you they will certainly get hit by it.
However, I only see this working against offensive players and those that try to rush you. If you use this way to much they'll soon get aware of it and camp the stage while you go return to it.

 

[Villi]

Best I've been able to do trying to get back with this method against Wario's bite is a nair (and that's it). I'm guessing at best you can get 5 frames, at worst 0. 100% + I've been bitten every time. It's difficult to time by myself, but I wouldn't count on the invincibility too much.

 

[Oh Snap]

This looks really useful and fast...

But really a 5 frames of invincibility isn't that useful...
Zelda's NL has 8? frames of invincibily and none of the mains really use that ...

 

[Morrigan]

Are you talking about her neutral B? .... The comparison doesn't make much sense >_>

What's better, 0 invincibility frames or 5?

 

[Oh Snap]

Yeah...NL has invici. frames on 4-11.

 

[Morrigan]

But that's a reeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally completely different move...I can't relate or even compare this technique with Zelda's neutral B.

 

[Villi]

Well, the amount of invincibility you get depends on how much you have left by hanging on the ledge. You can do a stall to get them back, but you can't really have them whenever you want them.

 

[NinjaLink]

This looks really useful and fast...

But really a 5 frames of invincibility isn't that useful...
Zelda's NL has 8? frames of invincibily and none of the mains really use that ...

Not a main but I still use it even in melee. When i see NL, it confuses me but i kno what it is lol

5 Frames is better than none. U kinda have a bit of freedom. Make use of it being like NO other char can do this.

But Niko confuses me still calling it Ledge Float cancel. Cant u just leave it as Floatlanding lol. Also Niko heres an idea. Combine this with Turnip Freepull ^_^

THINK OF THE POSSIBILITIES.

 

[reqy]

even without the invincibility frames it seems to be a good AT to surprise your opponents. how much frames is the shield roll? more frames of invincibility! lol

 

[Niko_K]

After playing around with this technique at the tournament yesterday I must say it is WAY too good. Really catches your opponent off guard.

Glide tossing upwards to u-smash kill was awesome xD

 

[Jamnt0ast]

yes, i am invading the peach forums

 

[Kel]

BTW Thank you very much for the thread Niko. I didn't know about this and it looks crazy useful.

Is it really 5 frames of invincibility? Is that the maximum amount of frames you can have after grabbing the ledge?

5 Frames is a lot, guys. Marth's up B has 5 frames on invincibility too. Being able to catch people off guard with anything you want is awesome. You could probably do this to Up smash on an unsuspecting opponent for a kill.

 

[Niko_K]

Thanks for the comment Kel, I'm glad you see as much potential for this AT as I do. Also I believe you can get a lot more than 5 frames of invincibility, I'm going to take my quick fingers for the test today. Ill get my brother to spam nado at the ledge while I use LFC to attack the nado, if my attack doesnt hit the nado before I get sucked in, it has less frames of invincibility than X attacks startup + amount of time to insta float.

Any more accurate ways to test this?

 

[Morrigan]

More accurate? Use the method you used to collect frame data

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zUYt-IUc_-0

I couldn't help but notice you try this out at 1:00 but you got hit with G&W's Up Smash Did the frames run out or something?

 

[Niko_K]

He waited for them to end and punished me. He caught on quite nicely. To be honest I meant to toad as a trick but oh well.

I'll record some friendlies today at Ayaz's house showing more practical uses. My favorite is footstooling off the ledge.

 

[deepseadiva]

I'm stuck way too many times on the ledge, this sounds incredibly useful.

LFC to Turnip Free Pull? KTHNX.

 

[Niko_K]

I got a nice glide toss upwards to U smash kill on Ally with this <3

 

[Kel]

I've heard that M2K would pause the game and draw each individual frame. Then, to see which move beats which, he would use a really fast move (Pikachu's, snakes, or Zamus' Jab) and use that to see when it clanks or goes through.

You could sit a Zamus or Snake at the edge and hold A. I don't know exactly how fast their stuff is, but it's pretty freaking fast and would help. I know MK has some 2 frame stuff too. MK's uair comes out in 2 frames, and I think his d tilt takes 3. Shields drop in 7 frames. So, maybe you could have your friend shield, you do the AT, and then have him drop his shield right as you pop up and have him attack with one of the quick moves. If your attack goes through, it's got at least 10 frames of invincibility (plus human error).

My guess is that the amount of invincibility frames you have is dependent upon how long it takes you to drop from the ledge. You're forced to stay on the ledge for a short period of time after you grab it, and then you get a little bit of invincibility afterward where you can do what you'd please. My guess is that you're just abusing the ledge invincibility by getting up from the ledge really fast and going from there.

...which is awesome 5000

 

[Niko_K]

So all we need now is to know how many frames of invincibility we gain from grabbing the ledge. Then the amount of time before we can input any action on the ledge, followed by how long it takes to insta float off of the ledge.

From there we can figure out how much invincibility we have during/after attacks.

 

[Villi]

That sounds good. Bowser board says it's 37 IIRC.

 

[Niko_K]

Now to find out what the delay is from grabbing the ledge and being able to input insta float.

 

[Kel]

I got this to work a couple times today at a fest, but it's hard. I'll try to master is some time soon hopefully. Busy schedules suck for smash

 

[Niko_K]

The key thing is to make sure you have your second jump. Also, 3GOD if you see this, could you help me with the frame data for this?

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Argh no. Why is having your 2nd jump a key part?

I realise this could potentially be incredible - I hate getting killed because Peach's getting back onto the actual stage options are pretty poor and this could flip things on it's head but why do you need your 2nd jump? Would keeping your Float not just be ok? I always use my 2nd jump for momentum cancelling after I've performed a Uair so I would like to keep it for that

 

[Niko_K]

I'm pretty sure you can't insta-float off of the ledge unless you have your 2nd jump.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Just tried in Training Mode. Used my 2nd jump, grabbed the ledge and Insta Floated back on. In that case, I can feel free to use my 2nd jump for momentum cancelling/spacing purposes near the ledge then?

 

[Niko_K]

I'm going over to Percon's house right now to test this out. Results later.

 

[Kel]

I'm really having trouble doing this.

Is it really just hitting down and Y (X) and then releasing Y quickly? Because if I do that, she just drops and then floats for a quick second right at the ledge.

Is there any other movement?

Do you HAVE to input a command right after that?

What exactly slight-shots her up onto the stage like that?

 

[Villi]

You're canceling her ledge jump with float. The input is Y (hold Y), down, release down and Y.

 

[slikvik]

NL showed me how to do it but i have trouble doing it frame perfect. he does it perfectly. just instant float the same way you would on the ground and let go of jump immediately