New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I don't think he'll make an appearance in Smash 4, sadly ... Then again, I'm just busy straining my tendons for either of Lyn/Lucina. Hell, I'm willing to stomach Ike not coming back for either of those two. Just please, please, don't give me Chrom.

I know Ridley is very important to Metroid (am a fan, but I'm currently playing through the games, haven't done so yet). I'm just saying that in Smash, Dark Samus seems like a better idea. That's all.

 

[True Fool]

I know Ridley is very important to Metroid (am a fan, but I'm currently playing through the games, haven't done so yet). I'm just saying that in Smash, Dark Samus seems like a better idea. That's all.

I agree with this. I love Ridley, and I wish he'd been in since Melee. But he'd just take so much time and effort for PM, I just don't think it'd be a smart use of their time.

I may be a little biased though, Prime is my favorite bunch of Metroid games, and I'd be perfectly satisfied with representation coming solely from Prime.

My bias may also come from the fact that I have no issues with clones though. As long as our roster isn't over-saturated with them, i.e. 10 movesets and 30+ clones, I love having a few variations on different movesets. If we had a roster of 25 original movesets and 25 clones, I'd be cool with it. But that's probably just me.

 

[Chzrm3]

Aww man, when I left this thread to go play some PM, we were talking about SkullKid's moveset potential and how awesome he could be. (I really loved everyone's suggestions btw, the in-depth breakdown by Fortress was really fun to read). And now we're arguing about how many people like/care about each franchise. @_@

I'm not really interested in that kind of argument (it really never seems to go anywhere, but it's also just not any fun : > ), but there is something I wanted to say... I personally feel like the bar has to be pretty high for a character in an uninitiated franchise to get into the game. I'm good with Tom Nook getting in - heck, that's awesome. I like the idea of Isaac gettng in, because he seems really beloved and I've been hearing about Golden Sun being a special series for a while now. Beyond that, I honestly feel like I'd rather see the franchises we already have get more reps.

That's why I don't agree with things like "Star Fox has all the characters it needs." What does that even mean? What does the game, or any particular franchise, really need? Heck, you could argue that we had all the characters we needed in demo 2.0 - the game had a pretty sizeable roster (more than Melee at that point, I think it was at 29 characters?) and was extremely fun. After Roy and Mewtwo got in even when that seemed impossible, you can definitively say that this game doesn't need a single additional character. At this point, it's all gravy.

So I think if you bog yourself down too much by running the numbers on which franchise deserves X number of reps, is the most popular, trends the best among this demographic, etc etc, you'll eventually find yourself focusing more on numbers and statistics than the sheer "This would be hype" factor that's been driving PM since day 1. Sure, maybe a mathematical analysis would conclude that Advanced Wars is sufficiently popular to warrant a character - but it's probably more important to pick something that's going to make people lose their minds. =)

One of the franchises we've talked about a lot in this thread is LoZ. We've talked about Tetra, we've talked about Skull Kid... and MAN have we talked about Ganondorf! Now, LoZ has 5 reps, and I'm sure any aspiring mathematician could tell me that I'm numerically wrong for wanting another LoZ character. There's 5 already, which is plenty for a franchise of their size, and other franchises are starving, and if you run the numbers, it's only fair, etc etc etc.... But that doesn't really change how I (or anyone else who'd love a LoZ rep) feel about the characters. It doesn't change the fact that if we're browsing FB one day and see a trailer from the PM team showing off a Skullkid reveal, we're going to go nuts. It's just exciting, and you can't really put a qualifier or a numerical value on that.

I dunno, this ended up being a really long, esoteric rant. If you guys are having fun crunching the numbers, I'd hate to be that guy that tells you you're using the thread the wrong way, because I don't think that's fair either. (After all, I took up tons of time campaigning for Pichu ). But maybe it's not the most important thing to be focusing on - that's all I'm saying.

 

[ChronoBound]

Its interesting how the primary concern with Ridley is how time consuming he would be, not so much his worth of his placement (to which, even the supporters of Dark Samus acknowledge Ridley is a higher priority/importance in the Metroid series).

I think we are underestimating the ability to the Project M team. They have already done so many amazing things so far. If there is but ONE character out there that deserves a lot of effort, its Ridley.

As has been, lots of people have been looking forward to him since even prior to Melee's release. Really, he is probably among the few legendary Nintendo characters left not yet playable in Smash Bros., and if Sakurai again skips out on him (like its looking like with the Pyrosphere), then having Ridley as one of the team's characters is going to bring massive amounts of hype and interest to Project M from the non-competitive portions of the fanbase.

 

[ChronoBound]

So I think if you bog yourself down too much by running the numbers on which franchise deserves X number of reps, is the most popular, trends the best among this demographic, etc etc, you'll eventually find yourself focusing more on numbers and statistics than the sheer "This would be hype" factor that's been driving PM since day 1. Sure, maybe a mathematical analysis would conclude that Advanced Wars is sufficiently popular to warrant a character - but it's probably more important to pick something that's going to make people lose their minds. =)
.

Isaac and Ridley (and maybe Dixie) would fulfill that.

However, even Sakurai has taken the position of taking a lesser known franchise (or something the series fanbase never really asked for) and granting it a playable character.

I mean if we get Ridley, Isaac, Dixie, and Lyn as the popular requests, does it matter we get someone like Sami/Tom Nook/Lip who is in line with what Sakurai did with Captain Falcon/Marth/Roy/PokemonTrainner/Villager?

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

On top of that, workload shouldn't really be too much of an issue here. Obviously, less development time is good, but if PM wants to do something, they're gonna do it no matter how long it may take (as long as it's within reason, of course).

 

[True Fool]

Development time and effort is pretty much the primary concern with clone engine characters. From the ground up characters will be much harder to do than a clone. It isn't necessarily that we all want 5 more clones added, but that may be what the team wants to do, for simplicity's sake. I do agree that if the PM team wants to do it, it will be done. I just think the cons may outweigh the pros when it comes to making a more complex, original moveset.

We won't know for quite some time now, but that seems to be the general consensus.

Half-vote for Ridley while I'm at it, if I didn't already. He could be a terrific addition to the game if added.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

Development time and effort is pretty much the primary concern with clone engine characters. From the ground up characters will be much harder to do than a clone. It isn't necessarily that we all want 5 more clones added, but that may be what the team wants to do, for simplicity's sake. I do agree that if the PM team wants to do it, it will be done. I just think the cons may outweigh the pros when it comes to making a more complex, original moveset.

We won't know for quite some time now, but that seems to be the general consensus.

Half-vote for Ridley while I'm at it, if I didn't already. He could be a terrific addition to the game if added.

I think the PMBR has shown that no amount of time and effort can hold them down. I feel the real primary concern is articles and voice clips.

 

[Arteen]

They've actually said time and effort are important to consider.

With the ASM coding in place, we then put together a model and rig that model up to a skeleton for animation, which is easily the most time consuming part of creating a new character. We've estimated that creating all new animations for a character that live up to our quality standards would take at least 700 hours. This is why clones or partial clones are so appealing – by limiting the number of new animations created it cuts down the amount of time required substantially. That's not to say that new characters are entirely off limits, but the most viable proposals often start off of the base of another character. Think of Luigi – he shares many similar moves and animations with Mario, his base, but over time has been given more unique traits. Furthermore, his unique physics instantly shift his entire play style. Creating new play experiences in a polished manner as efficiently as possible is really the name of the game.

Clones are much more viable than anyone that needs to be animated from scratch.

 

[True Fool]

I think the PMBR has shown that no amount of time and effort can hold them down. I feel the real primary concern is articles and voice clips.

I dunno, I feel like they could come up with their own voice clips pretty easily. That argument could be made for any character who doesn't speak. Articles though, yes. That is an important thing to consider.

Also, I noticed Claus isn't among the possible characters in the poll results. Are his votes just so minimal that he's omitted from the list, or was this an oversight?

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

They've actually said time and effort are important to consider.

Clones are much more viable than anyone that needs to be animated from scratch.

Maybe I should have worded my post better. I meant to say that while time and effort are important factors, the PMBR have shown that they are willing to put the effort in to not just make a new model, rig it, change all the stats by 2-5 points and call it a day.

 

[Anti Guy]

I dunno, I feel like they could come up with their own voice clips pretty easily. That argument could be made for any character who doesn't speak. Articles though, yes. That is an important thing to consider.

Also, I noticed Claus isn't among the possible characters in the poll results. Are his votes just so minimal that he's omitted from the list, or was this an oversight?

He didn't have 10 votes at the time of that tally.

 

[macuwe]

Up votes:

1.Dixie Kong
2.Bowser Jr
3.Skull Kid with MM
4.King K. Rool
5.Isaac


Half votes:

-Lyn

Down votes:
Waluigi - there is already a good psa and model on BrawlVault - there are enough Mario Charakters already in pm -not most interesting char(but this is only my opinion)

Shadow - cant imagine him to be sicnificantly different from sonic (iconic moves?) - not part of the core sonic team(sonic tails knuckles)

Ganondorf/Dark Shadow- its okay with me if they would only add dark shadow or give ganondorf a sword move. But i dont like the idea of taking the moves from a melee veteran and giving it to another model. I dont have a real reason for it. Its okay if this downvote wont count cause i dont think they would do it.

And one of the following as last character in the final Pm Version(:D):
-Megaman
-Banjo Kazooie
-Conker

Would be awesome, but i know not possible...

Edit: reason for downvote, thx Anti guy

 

[Anti Guy]

Up votes:

1.Dixie Kong
2.Bowser Jr
3.Skull Kid with MM
4.King K. Rool
5.Isaac


Half votes:

-Lyn

Down votes:
Waluigi
Shadow
Ganondorf/Dark Shadow


And one of the following as last character in the final Pm Version(:D):
-Megaman
-Banjo Kazooie
-Conker

Would be awesome, but i know not possible...

Down votes won't count unless you give a reason why

 

[Diddy Kong]

Its interesting how the primary concern with Ridley is how time consuming he would be, not so much his worth of his placement (to which, even the supporters of Dark Samus acknowledge Ridley is a higher priority/importance in the Metroid series).

I think we are underestimating the ability to the Project M team. They have already done so many amazing things so far. If there is but ONE character out there that deserves a lot of effort, its Ridley.

As has been, lots of people have been looking forward to him since even prior to Melee's release. Really, he is probably among the few legendary Nintendo characters left not yet playable in Smash Bros., and if Sakurai again skips out on him (like its looking like with the Pyrosphere), then having Ridley as one of the team's characters is going to bring massive amounts of hype and interest to Project M from the non-competitive portions of the fanbase.

No, Ridley really WOULD be time consuming. Unless you are content him being a lot like Charizard? Which in all actuality, would work nicely seeing how P:M Charizard works.

 

[TopTierPichu]

if we need a reasons to down vote i should probably give mine
I down vote Isaac and Ridley simply because it does not do those characters justice to be included with the limitations that the PMBR have to deal with

 

[ChronoBound]

if we need a reasons to down vote i should probably give mine
I down vote Isaac and Ridley simply because it does not do those characters justice to be included with the limitations that the PMBR have to deal with

I would be sincerely surprised if Isaac does not end up playable in Project M.

I think once we see who the first of their five newcomers are, we will have a better understanding of their capabilities.

 

[Banjodorf]

I would be sincerely surprised if Isaac does not end up playable in Project M.

I think once we see who the first of their five newcomers are, we will have a better understanding of their capabilities.

I get the feeling they aren't going to even try any newcomers until Smash 4's roster has been revealed. I mean, it's been a year and a half since P:M 2.0 came out, and I wouldn't imagine any newcomers would be in anything but 4.0.

As a result, I'd say Isaac has the best shot IF he isn't in Smash 4. He has a physical moveset that'd be easy to build from another sword character (with some tweaks, for kicks etc.) and Push is already in the game, as well as a model to build from.

They've mentioned him before, so I guarntee they're down. I think they'd probably start with Isaac, because it's a pretty hype addition, and would allow them to test the waters on making stuff like Psynergy moves. I originally thought they'd do Black Shadow/Dorf first, but I'm beginning to see that as a pretty divisive idea. (I'd love it, but it's not just me, obviously.)

 

[shinhed-echi]

Should any of the new PM characters included are later revealed in SSB4, they could probablly tweak them to become someone else from the same series, so all the work doesn't go to waste.

Isaac > Felix
Saki > Airan Jo
Samurai Goroh > Pico/Jody Summers/...Black Shadow
Andy > Sami
Dixie > Kiddy?
Bowser Jr. > A Koopaling?
King K.Rool > (Captain/Dr. K.Rool? or perhaps someone new altogether with the same build such as King Hippo)
Ridley>MetaRidley

But I don't think PMBR will even consider new characters until the SSB4 roster is revealed entirely.

 

[ChronoBound]

I am pretty sure the Project M team has said they won't wait to find out who is a part of Smash 4's roster to determine slots for Project M. However, someone from the team can correct me if I am wrong.

Mewtwo for example, is very likely to show up in the actual Smash 4, yet was still a top priority for Project M once the Clone Engine was complete.

 

[Shin F.]

I am pretty sure the Project M team has said they won't wait to find out who is a part of Smash 4's roster to determine slots for Project M. However, someone from the team can correct me if I am wrong.

Mewtwo for example, is very likely to show up in the actual Smash 4, yet was still a top priority for Project M once the Clone Engine was complete.

This. They said they won't try to back port any confirmed characters, but I don't think they care to attempt to anticipate whether every single candidate will be in Smash 4, and I doubt they'll want to wait until the game comes out to see who's left.

 

[Phantom1987]

up vote:

LLoyd Irving
Isaac
Krystal
Bowser jr

 

[Shin F.]

up vote:

LLoyd Irving
Isaac
Krystal
Bowser jr

Lloyd's not eligible, he's third party and he's not in Brawl at all.

 

[Anti Guy]

Should any of the new PM characters included are later revealed in SSB4, they could probablly tweak them to become someone else from the same series, so all the work doesn't go to waste.

Isaac > Felix
Saki > Airan Jo
Samurai Goroh > Pico/Jody Summers/...Black Shadow
Andy > Sami
Dixie > Kiddy?
Bowser Jr. > A Koopaling?
King K.Rool > (Captain/Dr. K.Rool? or perhaps someone new altogether with the same build such as King Hippo)
Ridley>MetaRidley

But I don't think PMBR will even consider new characters until the SSB4 roster is revealed entirely.

Who the hell is Airan Jo?
Pico and Jody Summers aren't really important enough, nor would they be able to inherit Goroh's moves. I'd just make him Black Shadow instead.
Andy -> Sami, ok
Dixie -> Kiddy... no, they're not like each other enough. All of the work on Diddy's ponytails wouldn't translate.
It's kinda hard to just pick one Koopaling out of the others... I'd probably remodel him as Baby Bowser instead.
Captain K. Rool and Dr. K Roolenstein are just aliases for K. Rool. If K. Rool's in SSB4, then let that be...
Ehh... MetaRidley might be pushing it, but I guess.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Who the hell is Airan Jo?

Saki's wife partner. Half the game you play as her. And she kicks as much butt as Saki, except for transforming into Evangelion Ruffian mode.
http://firsthour.net/screenshots/sin-and-punishment/sin-and-punishment-cover.jpg
(she's on the cover)

Pico and Jody Summers aren't really important enough, nor would they be able to inherit Goroh's moves. I'd just make him Black Shadow instead.

Sure, BS can work too..

Dixie -> Kiddy... no, they're not like each other enough. All of the work on Diddy's ponytails wouldn't translate.

Figured... There's always.... Nah forget it. Can't think of another hair user.

It's kinda hard to just pick one Koopaling out of the others... I'd probably remodel him as Baby Bowser instead.

Very clever, Mr.Ventura. *british accent off* I hadn't thought of that bypass. XD

Captain K. Rool and Dr. K Roolenstein are just aliases for K. Rool. If K. Rool's in SSB4, then let that be...
Ehh... MetaRidley might be pushing it, but I guess.

I don't see them getting into SSB4 to be brutally honest (would love it if they did), which is why I think they're both pretty good candidates.
K.Rool could be cloned from Dedede I reckon?

 

[Malion]

what about Tiny Kong?

 

[Fortress]

Down votes won't count unless you give a reason why

Why? Sorry, but that's kind of ********. I can upvote whomever I like just because I like them and think they'd be cool, and it gets them a vote, but I can't downvote somebody without giving some crap reason which will always boil down to "I don't like them".

Which is why I haven't voted.

 

[AnOkayDM]

Damn! I missed some good Skull Kid discussion. Man, there are a lot of good potential choices for a new Zelda character. I'd love for Majora's Mask to get some love in P:M, as it's my favorite game of all time...and hell, I remember a while back there was some unofficial poll for who should be in Smash 4 over on VG Tribune, and Skull Kid actually won! (Looking back on that with the knowledge I have now, it's kinda weird that he even beat out Mega Man, who was second, and Ridley, who was third, and Isaac, who barely even qualified somehow. Must have been a different crowd, but there were almost three hundred and fifty thousand votes, so...)

Anyway, Skull Kid would be a good way to represent Majora's Mask without adding a third Link in (or taking up three slots with the Deku/Goron/Zora idea), and I think he could have a really interesting moveset. I like the idea of him hovering. I also approve of using the blowgun and his vanishing tactic. As for normal moves, I would imagine him using quick punches and kicks, being a very agile fighter and possibly a confusing opponent. The Skull Kid in all incarnations seems to like music, dancing, and playing around, so weird as it sounds, perhaps his moveset could be based around dance somehow, or convey his love for jokes and trickery. I dunno, I'm just kind of spouting stuff now, so let me know what you think.

 

[Fortress]

perhaps his moveset could be based around dance somehow, or convey his love for jokes and trickery. I dunno, I'm just kind of spouting stuff now, so let me know what you think.

I'd love to have Skull Kid do dance moves for attacks. Disco Kid for 3.0.

 

[Starcutter]

Skull kid or Tetra...

I'd go for tetra, but I wouldn't care if skull kid was in instead.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

While it would be nice to have a second "Toon" character, I would prefer Skull Kid.

There's a lot of potential and room for creativity in his design. Take his whole trickery and dancing thing, incorporate some aspects of Majora itself and you have the basis for a very interesting character. Plus, I'm a sucker for more villains in Smash.

 

[AnOkayDM]

I'd love to have Skull Kid do dance moves for attacks. Disco Kid for 3.0.

That poll I mentioned earlier talked about a martial art known as "capoeira," a Brazilian one centered around dance. I know dance sounds silly, but it could be interesting, and underneath the mask, the Skull Kid really is just a playful character.

Skull kid or Tetra...

I'd go for tetra, but I wouldn't care if skull kid was in instead.

Tetra would probably be the easier choice if nothing else, as she could have most of her normal attacks (and her base model) cloned off of Toon Link. I think either choice is good, even if neither of them have been in many games to date.

 

[Fortress]

Plus, that puppet, man.

On the subject of Tetra: meh. She's been in one title, and doesn't really do much besides get you into the Forsaken Fortress and whatnot. I mean, she's neat and all, but you can actually fight Skull Kid, and in more than one game. Plus, he's seen developing much more in his own role in Majora's Mask than Tetra does once she becomes the boring Zelda.

 

[Starcutter]

I think either choice is good, even if neither of them have been in many games to date.

Now that you mention it, they practically have the same appearance rate.

they both have a really big appearance and a minor role, (although I do think tetra's minor role in Phantom Hourglass might be a bit less than minor.)

 

[Fortress]

Skull Kid? In not-so-many games? With minor roles? Excuse me?

We've got their fleshed out personalities and roles in Ocarina that, while they don't flesh out the main questline, bring some life to the world around the player, and lay out framework for the character in Majora's Mask.

Then we've got the Skull Kid from Ocarina in Majora's Mask, being the (sort of) main antagonist. You see him, or the effects of his rough play, everywhere in the world around you. Everybody you talk with has some kind of depressing, unnerving, or just plain pitiful problem, most of which get traced back to Skull Kid himself. Stories told in Majora's Mask itself, through the faries, to Anju's grandmother, to Skull Kid himself paint his character arc, and show him develop into the sort of entity he becomes before and after Link's encounter with him. He's much more developed than Tetra ever was.

And then in Twilight Princess... he... well, he guides you through a forest for a while, and that's it.

Point being, he's had more appearances and better character development than Tetra did. Plus, he has some nifty attacks that he actually does. We don't really get to see Tetra fight.

 

[TopTierPichu]

so what are the current results now then?

 

[AnOkayDM]

Plus, that puppet, man.

On the subject of Tetra: meh. She's been in one title, and doesn't really do much besides get you into the Forsaken Fortress and whatnot. I mean, she's neat and all, but you can actually fight Skull Kid, and in more than one game. Plus, he's seen developing much more in his own role in Majora's Mask than Tetra does once she becomes the boring Zelda.

I dunno if your ideas for TP Skull Kid are actually feasible with the clone engine's limitations, sadly...

She's been in two, actually. The rest of your points are pretty valid, though character development isn't a great reason to exclude someone from the game. Also, she does help you at the end of the game--yes, as Zelda, but they're the same person, so I don't know how that really matters...
Either way, I think she could have an interesting moveset and she'd be a decently easy clone, so there's that to consider.

Now that you mention it, they practically have the same appearance rate.

they both have a really big appearance and a minor role, (although I do think tetra's minor role in Phantom Hourglass might be a bit less than minor.)

Tetra's been in two games, while Skull Kid has been in three; however, it's unclear if the Skull Kid in TP is actually the same Skull Kid from OoT and MM. However, that's still more games than most other characters in Zelda have been in. Vaati also has three appearances, but he's not eligible, and Tingle has five...but **** Tingle.

 

[red9rd]

 

[Fortress]

I dunno if your ideas for TP Skull Kid are actually feasible with the clone engine's limitations, sadly...

Anything from TP Skull Kid is just creative weirdness. The horn and torch are the only things that are feasible, and would probably be nice touches for Skull Kid, to be honest. Along with his flute, he has a horn that he just blasts a horrible note on and knocks people on their feet. Sounds like him.

As far as Tetra goes, she just never gets as developed as Skull Kid does. Not that any of this matters in terms of Smash, mind you (it really doesn't), but Tetra is a no-good, take-charge Pirate-type helping to her own ends until she becomes Zelda, at which point she instantly turns into the prim and proper do-good princess. She doesn't really develop into it, like how Skull Kid goes from this attention-seeking prankster who is really lonely deep down, who turns into an even lonelier dude, into a jealous thief-type of character, into power-tripping pawn, and into... well, yeah, his whole "Sorry I kinda almost destroyed your world" personality in the end was a bit thrown out there, but it was there.

 

[Banjodorf]

Sort of disappointing to me that Claus has so few votes tallied. It seems like it wouldn't be as hard to base him off of Lucas, and give him stuff like bombs and the sword arm, etc. Although I guess the "Walking Spoiler" is a bit of an issue. Unless they just didn't call him Claus.