New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[DokemonStudios]

I'm not sure if it's what you mean, but I don't think you can make a 'clone character' consisting of a selection of moves from different characters. So you couldn't make character X that has Fox's side special, Lucario's nuetral special and Bowser's down special as they are all unique animations suited specifically to their source character. Creating character X would therefore require serious animation work which would take basically the same amount of time as it would to make the character from scratch. (It's a good point to raise, even if it's not what you mean as I see this false assumption come up alot in people's character suggestions).

That being said, I'm not a PM developer and would be happy to be proven wrong on this.

That was exactly what I mean. And yeah, a single character that isn't a clone would be hard to do. I would like to mention that Issac, Lyn, and Saki would be hard to add since they are already Assist Trophies, and as someone who still uses items, it'd be pretty weird seeing Lyn as a fighter and assist.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

That was exactly what I mean. And yeah, a single character that isn't a clone would be hard to do. I would like to mention that Issac, Lyn, and Saki would be hard to add since they are already Assist Trophies, and as someone who still uses items, it'd be pretty weird seeing Lyn as a fighter and assist.

They wouldn't be hard to add because they're AT's. They actually might be a bit easier to add because the team would already have some assets to work with. Also, they can just remove them from being an AT if they're added as playable.

 

[JCOnyx]

Any move can technically be ported over to another character unless it uses articles that the new character doesn't have or has grab properties. This is why Mewtwo used Lucario as a base, so they could use his Aura Sphere for Shadow Ball and have Confusion on sideB.

Although porting over a move to a character with a completely different bone structure is obnoxious from what I hear, so it's not done often. But creating completely new animations is even harder to say the least lol. Animation in general is probably the hardest part of creating the clone engine characters.

 

[ninjuh1124]

Animation in general is hard. The animators did an AMAZING job making Mewtwo look incredibly smooth, and if it takes another year or two to get a character with custom animations, I will happily wait for it.

 

[Hagrid]

Just reposting my Skull Kid moveset from a few pages back, all comments welcome. King K. Rool moveset coming soon!

"Why the sad face? I just thought I'd have a little fun with you. Oh, come now, do you really think you can beat me as I am now?"
Skull Kid​

View attachment 30476

One of the best things about this thread has always been reading people's character suggestions, but with the recent leak and 3.5 release, focus seems to have shifted elsewhere. To help rekindle our creativity, I thought I'd throw in one of my own moveset suggestions, and what better character to spark a good discussion than the one and only master of mischief, Skull Kid!

With the recent announcement of the Majora's Mask remake for 3DS, Skull Kid is locked in as the top candidate for a Zelda newcomer in Project M. Not only is he a popular character with amazing moveset potential, he is also a villain and one of the few Zelda characters to have the honour of appearing in multiple games for the series. Majora's Mask is also the only Zelda game to not have a playable character representative, making Skull Kid an incredibly justified choice.

The issue with Skull Kid is his moveset. The opening post lists Skull Kid as a 'C' for effort and states that he would have to be built from scratch. Considering how long it took for the Project M team to create Mewtwo, this makes me think that characters requiring that much work have a serious barrier to their inclusion.

This got me thinking about possible clone candidates for Skull Kid. There are not many possibilities when you consider both Skull Kid's model and moveset requirements, however I have come to the conclusion that the best option for a clone of Skull Kid would be Ness.

Now I know what you're thinking. "A Ness clone? Really?".

Well hear me out.

Ness and Skull Kid have similar models (they are both kids of the same size). So that gives us a viable model to work with. But what about moveset? Well interestingly the more you think about it, the more a moveset derived from Ness seems to fit. Here are some possible moveset similarities:



Dart-shooting Flute [Side B, Baseball Bat]

View attachment 30477Skull Kid with his flute in OoT. When engaged in battle, Skull Kid uses his flute to shoot darts at Link. With some slight animation and property changes, Ness's PK Fire could be changed to Skull Kid shooting sleep inducing darts from his flute. The flute could also replace the baseball bat.

Mind Trick [Down B]

View attachment 30480
Remind you of an ability Ness has? Instead of absorbing damage, Skull Kid's version could deal damage in an area of effect around him. To keep the theme of a trickster-style moveset, it could also be made to paralyze opponents for a short duration.

 

[Hagrid]

Tael [Up B, Yoyo]

View attachment 30481Skull Kid is always seen with his fairy Tael. The fairy could replace the energy ball in Ness's Up Special, however with a change in coding that makes Skull Kid warp to wherever the ball (fairy) ends up. Ness's yoyo animations could also simply be replaced with Skull Kid 'controlling' his fairy to attack around him.

Majora's Mischief [Nuetral B]

View attachment 30483
In Majora's Mask, Skull Kid uses his new-found power to transform Link into a Deku Scrub. Ness's PK Flash could be altered to a faster smaller version that transforms anyone it touches into a Deku Scrub.
Moon Meteor [Final Smash]

View attachment 30486
This one is rather self explanatory. I mean, need I say more?

I haven't gone into detail regarding standard A attacks, however there are very few attacks Ness does that Skull Kid would look strange doing. In fact, so long as the baseball bat and yoyo are replaced with the flute and Tael as suggested above, all other moves would suit Skull Kid very well.

So there you have it. Skull Kid could be made with a unique style of play based around causing status changes to the opponent, all using an existing character as a clone, drastically reducing the amount of time and effort required.

Certainly it's not ideal, especially as we already have a derived Ness moveset in Lucas, and a moveset made from scratch would obviously be better. However if we are serious about getting Skull Kid into Project M, we may need to accept some sort of compromise, as the amount of effort required to make him is making his chances slim. Thinking outside the box is the best way to do that. Thanks for reading and I very much welcome your feedback and suggestions!

 

[Spire]

I've said that a few times before in this thread, actually.

A back roomer like me does absolutely nothing.

A back roomer like you stays out of the back room.

 

[Anonistry]

A back roomer like you stays out of the back room.

Oh snap?

 

[ZeldaFan01]

That would be a cool move set! But I would want both Tatl and Tael to aid Skull Kid. Even though we don't see Tatl w/ Skull Kid a lot in MM, it wouldn't feel right to only have one fairy w/ him. Can't wait to see the K Rool move set!

And why has this thread gone dead even though the poll is over? (Assuming that's the reason).

 

[JayJay55]

Even though voting has ended (and we generally know who will be added into PM if you know what happened during 3.5's release), I still want to insert my two cents on how K. Rool could be implemented with a move-set that could possibly work. I'll start off with analyzing what was said in the OP.

Moveset - It's been suggested that K. Rool can use Dedede as a base. However, Dedede is a little too unique for K. Rool, starting with the floating and the hammer. While K. Rool has used a blunderbuss, it does not work at all like a hammer. It's been suggested that he can toss Kremlings instead of Waddle Dees, but that seems far-fetched. K. Rool has a whole host of unique moves, including shooting cannonballs, using his blunderbuss as a jet, and throwing his crown, to name a few. Unfortunately, these moves could be too unique to be implemented in a mod.

Now as we all know, not everything a character has done in their own games will be pulled as source material for a move-set, and with this being a mod with balance in mind the PMBR is very limited to what they could do, however, I think I may have formulated a move-set that could possibly work without screwing over balance while also not seeming to be a too far-fetched move-set.

King. K Rool has appeared in many DK games, the DKC trilogy and DK64 is mainly where most of his moves can be pulled from as source material. Those moves could be:
The crown
Blunderbuss
Propeller pack
Canonballs
Misc. moves from the DK64 Boss fight (That charge he does in the last phase [round] of the boss battle, or those shock waves he causes by jumping and landing on his bottom)

+ & + - Now as the quote above says, King K. Rool pulling Kremlings and throwing them could be far-fetched, but anybody who has played the DK games know there are a variety of Kremlings, now what's coming to mind as what Kremlings could be tossed are the Klaptraps:

What I'm thinking is that K. Rool could toss a Klaptrap and it would walk around on the floor and when it comes near an opponent it jumps up and chomps on the opponent, they'd most likely do this in a similar fashion to how they function in Jungle Japes.

Now for the second enemy, I was thinking a Zinger (But to be fair, Zingers and Klaptraps have significantly different designs and functions in comparison to the Waddle Dee and Waddle Doo duo, and may prove too difficult to implement, I'd then start to suggest having a red colored Klaptrap that does more damage but less knock-back and has a fire effect after chomping just for aesthetics):

Now you may be thinking that it seems pretty far-fetched for K. Rool to throw Zingers, but if you didn't know, the Krazy Kremlands from DKC2 has hives and levels that are home to the Zingers and King Zing is a boss in this area. Now as we all know in the Mario universe King Goomba has his own troops just as Bowser but even then the Goomba's still work under Bowser and have affiliation with Bowser and his troops and Goomba's are also treated as if they are Bowser's troops (which they are), we could assume this relationship is also applied to the Kremlings and the Zingers and wouldn't seem too far-fetched that he would toss out a Zinger once in a while. After being tossed the Zinger would remain stationary and disappear after staying in the fray for a while, and if an opponent makes contact with a Zinger it gives edged damage and has medium-low knock-back, but there's a catch as to why it's stationary.

- Kaptain K. Rool's Blunderbuss, now I bet you're wondering how could this be implemented when attempting to implement cannonballs (projectiles) are an obstacle that can't be overcame (at this point in time) since it's impossible to replicate the articles of a projectile? Well here's what I'm suggesting, why not make his blunderbuss function just as King DeDeDe's neutral special? It has the ability to suck up objects and opponents and the proof is he performs this in DKC2, although K. Rool while holding someone in his blunderbuss would be able to move faster than DeDeDe while holding someone in his stomach, but here's the twist, why not let it have the ability to blow also? The function of blowing is what I was alluding to about the Zingers' "catch" for being stationary, it could be possible that you could use the blunderbuss' blowing ability to put distance between you and your opponent by making the Zinger move forward after blowing it. The blowing function would also have the properties of Palutena's down and side smash attacks by having a wind-box. The blowing on the blunderbuss would function similarly to how you would make Snake move during the middle of his grab animation. You would activate the blowing function of the blunderbuss by holding neutral special and then press <-- or --> on the D-pad depending on which way you're facing. While blowing you are unable to move.

+ - The only thing I can see as being K. Rool's up special is his Propeller pack used in DKC3 as Baron K. Roolenstein, but the propellers would cause damage obviously.

+ - King Krusha K. Rool's charging move, in DK64 on the last phase (round) of K. Rool's boss battle you'd use Chunky Kong and make your way to the barrel that would make Chunky grow to the size of K. Rool. Once you were K. Rool's size K. Rool would charge at you at full speed. I'm thinking this could work like Wario's PM side special but except its chargeable, slower, but hits incredibly hard.

 

[Hagrid]

Awesome moveset JayJay! You beat me to the punch. I've just been finishing up a King K. Rool moveset myself.

It seems that we are on the same wavelength for some ideas. Though different on others. I'll post mine and we'll see if we can join forces to make the ultimate K. Rool clone.

 

[green strange]

My vote characters for Project M

+1
Lyn
Skull Kid
Waluigi
Krystal
Sami

+1/2
King K. Rool
Dixie

-1
Dark Samus NO MORE DARKS VERSIONS CLONE CLONE, = DARK LINK = DARK PIT ARGGG

 

[Warzenschwein]

Dark Samus NO MORE DARKS VERSIONS CLONE CLONE, = DARK LINK = DARK PIT ARGGG

Not sure if b7+1

 

[Crixler]

My vote characters for Project M
+1
Lyn
Skull Kid
Waluigi
Krystal
Sami
+1/2
King K. Rool
Dixie
-1
Dark Samus NO MORE DARKS VERSIONS CLONE CLONE, = DARK LINK = DARK PIT ARGGG

I think voting's over now, but there might still be one person counting votes. I'm not sure.
And Dark Samus is actually pretty different, unlike Dark Link and Dark Pit. Just so you know.

 

[CBO0tz]

So the votes are being counted now..? The Top 5 didn't even change..
Which is funny, because I doubt the PMDT is going to make Black Shadow a Captain Falcon clone..
And another Fire Emblem representative..

 

[ZeldaFan01]

So the votes are being counted now..? The Top 5 didn't even change..
Which is funny, because I doubt the PMDT is going to make Black Shadow a Captain Falcon clone..
And another Fire Emblem representative..

I don't know.. You never know what might happen.!

 

[ThePocketPencil]

BrawlEX, but P:M doesn't support it.

Any reason as to why? Besides the sound kinks it sounds like a soulution to a lot of request ( taking into account the time and effort in making a character, of course. )

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Any reason as to why? Besides the sound kinks it sounds like a soulution to a lot of request ( taking into account the time and effort in making a character, of course. )

BrawlEX isn't really stable and it doesn't actually allows you to add new sounds, only replace someone else's and once they will run out of place with bosses, they will have to stick with reusing someone else's SFX and common SFX and PMBR aims for the high quality, so, that doesn't appears to be likely. Their engine is a lot more stable and slot limit kinda helps since they won't have too many new characters to balance properly and they won't take way too much time with those. Its better to take quality over quantity (*coughSSB4clonescough*). They could of course go for the Melee route to cut development time, but then why even bother adding if time spent won't be worth it and they will get same reception as Falcondorf or at least close to it?

Dark Samus NO MORE DARKS VERSIONS CLONE CLONE, = DARK LINK = DARK PIT ARGGG

Unlike those two, Dark Samus isn't even a clone of Samus canonically - it is a mass of sentient radioactive space steroid drug called "phazon" that took a form of Samus' Phazon Suit (thats why its "it" and not "she" or "he") because it was the closest thing that allowed it to survive. Its abilities are a lot different too. Still its better to have Ridley over it since he looks a lot more different from Samus, possibility of him being a clone is a lot lower (it would take way too much time adapting Charizard's animations to him for it to really be worth making him a clone instead of a new character since they are too different, like Toon Link (Charizard) and Ganondorf (Ridley)) and he is also more popular and important.

 

[ThePocketPencil]

BrawlEX isn't really stable and it doesn't actually allows you to add new sounds, only replace someone else's and once they will run out of place with bosses, they will have to stick with reusing someone else's SFX and common SFX and PMBR aims for the high quality, so, that doesn't appears to be likely. Their engine is a lot more stable and slot limit kinda helps since they won't have too many new characters to balance properly and they won't take way too much time with those. Its better to take quality over quantity (*coughSSB4clonescough*). They could of course go for the Melee route to cut development time, but then why even bother adding if time spent won't be worth it and they will get same reception as Falcondorf or at least close to it?

Unlike those two, Dark Samus isn't even a clone of Samus canonically - it is a mass of sentient radioactive space steroid drug called "phazon" that took a form of Samus' Phazon Suit (thats why its "it" and not "she" or "he") because it was the closest thing that allowed it to survive. Its abilities are a lot different too. Still its better to have Ridley over it since he looks a lot more different from Samus, possibility of him being a clone is a lot lower (it would take way too much time adapting Charizard's animations to him for it to really be worth making him a clone instead of a new character since they are too different, like Toon Link (Charizard) and Ganondorf (Ridley)) and he is also more popular and important.

Ah, it's more of a quality overall, and stability thing, makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the answer!

 

[KACHOW!!!]

Has anyone thought about adding smash 4 characters like the villager? It would be really great for PM players to have access to some of that stuff. Not saying we should make it like smash 4, but come on, the villager is awesome! Maybe don't add some of the dumber characters like dark pit, but duck hunt could be really fun too!

 

[Draco_The]

Has anyone thought about adding smash 4 characters like the villager? It would be really great for PM players to have access to some of that stuff. Not saying we should make it like smash 4, but come on, the villager is awesome! Maybe don't add some of the dumber characters like dark pit, but duck hunt could be really fun too!

5. To avoid legal issues with Smash 4, Newcomers from that game (such as Little Mac and Palutena) will not be used for the Clone Engine. Likewise, characters that don't appear in Brawl ARE NOT ELIGIBLE.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Unlike those two, Dark Samus isn't even a clone of Samus canonically - it is a mass of sentient radioactive space steroid drug called "phazon" that took a form of Samus' Phazon Suit (thats why its "it" and not "she" or "he") because it was the closest thing that allowed it to survive. Its abilities are a lot different too.

This.I don't know why people call Metroid Prime( which is what Dark Samus is )she.It is an it.It is not a clone of Samus.It resembles Samus only because it ripped off part of her suit and used that power suit piece to regenerate.It's weird how even Metroid fans call it she,or a copy of Samus.

 

[KACHOW!!!]

So @ Draco_The , we're basically limited to what, any IP that just happens to be in Brawl vanilla? Like trophies and such?

 

[JayTheUnseen]

So @ Draco_The , we're basically limited to what, any IP that just happens to be in Brawl vanilla? Like trophies and such?

Yes,but throw stickers in the mix.Together that's probably a thousand characters.

 

[KACHOW!!!]

Yeah, once i realized how big the pool was, i figure : "ok, thats fine". But lol, I'm willing to bet most of the smash 4 characters are trophies or something like that anyway! But are they automatically out even if they're still a sticker if they're a smash 4 character? I could see why they'd do that (so nintendo doesn't torpedo the whole thing) but I'm still not clear on it.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Yeah, once i realized how big the pool was, i figure : "ok, thats fine". But lol, I'm willing to bet most of the smash 4 characters are trophies or something like that anyway! But are they automatically out even if they're still a sticker if they're a smash 4 character? I could see why they'd do that (so nintendo doesn't torpedo the whole thing) but I'm still not clear on it.

Yes,that is correct.For example,Bowser Jr. was once a canidate( I think he's still on the OP character list ) but he is no longer valid,since he was confirmed for Smash 4.Having characters from Smash 4 in P:M would be too risky.They want to make sure they don't seem to be competing with Smash 4.

 

[Draco_The]

So @ Draco_The , we're basically limited to what, any IP that just happens to be in Brawl vanilla? Like trophies and such?

Yup.

 

[Super_Primid]

I've been gone for so long. Can someone tell me why the poll is closed?

 

[DokemonStudios]

I'm going to get a lot of flame for this, but... why don't we create original characters? If we are so worried about copyright, why don't we create characters that Nintendo won't put in because they are fan characters. Like Mrs. Game & Watch or Old Link or Robo-Ness? You guys seem to defend clones for the tiniest reasons, no matter how obvious they are. Just having characters based on trophies or stickers, seems a bit restrained. Trophies I can understand, because they have models you can reuse, but for assist trophies, you told me you could remove them. But tell me, how are you going to remove them as AT's entirely once they are playable?

 

[Chaos15]

I'm going to get a lot of flame for this, but... why don't we create original characters? If we are so worried about copyright, why don't we create characters that Nintendo won't put in because they are fan characters. Like Mrs. Game & Watch or Old Link or Robo-Ness? You guys seem to defend clones for the tiniest reasons, no matter how obvious they are. Just having characters based on trophies or stickers, seems a bit restrained. Trophies I can understand, because they have models you can reuse, but for assist trophies, you told me you could remove them. But tell me, how are you going to remove them as AT's entirely once they are playable?

You can't reuse Trophy models since they are lower in quality than the fighter models.
Also why the hell would anyone be on board with an OC? People didn't like it in Smash Flash they sure as hell won't like it Project M.

Also if they can create entir new modes I'm sure they can remove ATs.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

You can't reuse Trophy models since they are lower in quality than the fighter models.
Also why the hell would anyone be on board with an OC? People didn't like it in Smash Flash they sure as hell won't like it Project M.

Also if they can create entir new modes I'm sure they can remove ATs.

Actually, trophy models are as detailed as character models. Its just that they have to be t-posed (since if you will rip them, they will still be in that pose) and then rigged and that is a lot more difficult than pretty much anything they did with models...Oh, wait, they actually did that already with Fusion Suit (i really doubt they used Metroid Prime model because its a Gamecube game). So, they can do that. In Melee, trophy models were actually A LOT MORE detailed than character models.

I'm going to get a lot of flame for this, but... why don't we create original characters? If we are so worried about copyright, why don't we create characters that Nintendo won't put in because they are fan characters. Like Mrs. Game & Watch or Old Link or Robo-Ness? You guys seem to defend clones for the tiniest reasons, no matter how obvious they are. Just having characters based on trophies or stickers, seems a bit restrained. Trophies I can understand, because they have models you can reuse, but for assist trophies, you told me you could remove them. But tell me, how are you going to remove them as AT's entirely once they are playable?

Yeah, we will totally want those in a Nintendo All-Stars game. Remember what was with Super Smash Flash 1's OCs? They were not received well and were later removed completly. Well, they were those common X the Hedgehog Totally Original Character Do Not Steal kind of OCs, but still counts. They will be completly out-of-place in such game and unless its a case of Totally Original Character Do Not Steal (which automatically will lower quality of the character by more than 90%), they will have to make completly new model and that is a huge pain in the...you know.

 

[GunBuster]

Actually, trophy models are as detailed as character models.

as dead a thread as this may be, you know damn well that's not true for all of them.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

as dead a thread as this may be, you know damn well that's not true for all of them.

Well, things like Dark Samus, Sylux, WW Ganondorf, all Samus suits, K.Rool, Dixie Kong, Black Shadow, etc are that detailed. Less important stuff that i doubt is even high in the poll is less detailed of course.

 

[Frozn~]

I found this laying around in my files that I made back during the moveset making hype that I never finished, so here ya go guys.

Sami Moveset:

Spoiler

 

[kyleglor]

I found this laying around in my files that I made back during the moveset making hype that I never finished, so here ya go guys.

Sami Moveset:

Spoiler

I love the art with it

For an up b I thinking it would be cooler to have her her use like a rocket launcher to propel herself up, her holding it with both hands aimed straight down

 

[ChiePet]

Wait wait, the last line; does that mean we're limited to only assist trophies?
Elaborate on the "characters outside of brawl" portion, pls.
My heart may just stop, lol.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Wait wait, the last line; does that mean we're limited to only assist trophies?
Elaborate on the "characters outside of brawl" portion, pls.
My heart may just stop, lol.

Then why the hell is there Ridley and...pretty much everyone on the list?

This means that if character did not appeared PHYSICALLY in Brawl ANYHOW, then that character can't be voted for. For example, Pac Man, who isn't allowed because of one more rule, Anthony Higgs, SA-X, Magalor, etc. If character appeared as a sticker, trophy, assist trophy, boss or part of the stage, then that character is allowed.

Either way, voting closed, so, it doesn't matters.

 

[ChiePet]

Then why the hell is there Ridley and...pretty much everyone on the list?

This means that if character did not appeared PHYSICALLY in Brawl ANYHOW, then that character can't be voted for. For example, Pac Man, who isn't allowed because of one more rule, Anthony Higgs, SA-X, Magalor, etc. If character appeared as a sticker, trophy, assist trophy, boss or part of the stage, then that character is allowed.

Either way, voting closed, so, it doesn't matters.

I don't get why everyone has to respond immediately to others in such condescending/rude ways, I was just asking, and that being said; Yeah, It was more so a moment of panic in the sense that 3.5 came to us without any characters, roughly before WiiU, and I had no idea if the rules for what the PMBR could and couldn't do had changed, so not only would the list be a complete waste of time for so long, but no hope for the entire thread of people hoping for their favorites to become a Melee-stacked, meta-game changing entry to it all.

Anyways, I still, voting closed or not, always put:
+1 Ashley.
I wish there was at least a Model rip or something, the only few Ashleys on BrawlVault are.. scary.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

I don't get why everyone has to respond immediately to others in such condescending/rude ways, I was just asking, and that being said; Yeah, It was more so a moment of panic in the sense that 3.5 came to us without any characters, roughly before WiiU, and I had no idea if the rules for what the PMBR could and couldn't do had changed, so not only would the list be a complete waste of time for so long, but no hope for the entire thread of people hoping for their favorites to become a Melee-stacked, meta-game changing entry to it all.

Anyways, I still, voting closed or not, always put:
+1 Ashley.
I wish there was at least a Model rip or something, the only few Ashleys on BrawlVault are.. scary.

Rude? Condescending? I just highlighted important parts. Other than those 2 words, it is normal. If you are talking about sentence above, then i just pointed out what you missed.

 

[ChiePet]

Rude? Condescending? I just highlighted important parts. Other than those 2 words, it is normal. If you are talking about sentence above, then i just pointed out what you missed.

[Then why the hell is there Ridley and...pretty much everyone on the list?]

With that, I'm just gonna drop it, not worth either of our time.

RE:Bump;
+1 Ashley

:3
srsly why is there no good vertex/texture/model of ashley for lucas/ness other than those 2 scary ones on BV.
wish i knew how to rip models/files from games, I'd gnab Ashley's Assist Trophy model immediately.