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New Discovery on the SAF of Olimar

Mitsuko

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 13, 2008
Messages
85
So I was playing with mind friend on SSBB, and he tricked me into thinking that Olimar's dspecial made you go up, but he was actually just jumping, but that gave me an idea, so i have to give him credit, here it is Thanks Pikminx45 for making me think of this!!
I call it the rising SAF, you have to have a jump in order to do this, what happens though, is that you jump with olimar, while having SAF, all you do is dspecial then jump (easiest with b-sticking). This can be really useful for people who try to spike you, or WoP you, because then you can counter attack, or get back on the ground!

Thank again Pikminx45, you helped me think up of this new discovery.
 

Jarri

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 21, 2007
Messages
387
Location
Belgium
So... you SAF Whistle and then you jump? *confused* I don't really think the SAF Whistle frames are long enough to do that, unless you really time it perfectly (almost impossible on Wi-Fi, due to the lag). You'll still have to deal with the damage however, so I suggest to either stay on the ground and shield, or do a shorthopped dodge-jump.
 

TrueRedemption

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
278
Um, this is no different than any other Whistle SAF usage. In fact it is only suggested you use the technique when off stage recovering and an air dodge is not necessarily the best option. So this isn't a discovery, not even a new idea, in fact your only limiting your options if you insist on jumping when you whistle armor.

Please no one else post, let this thread die out and not crowd the other topics. Or if a random mod passing by would be so kind as to lock it, it'd be appreciated =)


-True
 

Mitsuko

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 13, 2008
Messages
85
Ok, i guess you'd have to try it out. When recovering, if someone tries to WoP you or something, and you still have a jump, you can register the dspecial and the jump at almost the same time, that way you'll get over the person, making an easier recovery, it works really well for alot of situations. I use it all the time. it doesn't limit, it expands.
 

Fredd

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
119
Location
Just ask!
Oh, so you`re just telling us that there is virtually no lag time when performing Olimar`s D:special.
Therefore, we can execute both the D:special and a jump at the "same" time?
 

TrueRedemption

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
278
The same reason SantaClaus can appropriately use sarcasm, pockyD can appropriately ask whats the point, and Jarri (while trying to see any advantage Mitsuko may have intended with this) can point out two better options. This is simply not a new discovery, nor even a revolutionary use or combination of two standard moves. This thread is simply clutter pushing down other topics on a particularly active character specific board. It neither offers some new perspective to be considered nor is it offering a start to any meaningful or enjoyable discussion; in fact its only inviting flaming and suggesting false information for developing players who may not know better, neither of which is helpful or positive for any involved. The best times to use whistle's super armor has been discussed before, and while reopening that topic would not necessarily be a bad thing, this thread is not even attempting to do that. Personally I have nothing against Mitsuko, I've seen him around before and he's contributed to discussion in other threads. However, searching for previous threads on the whistle super armor topic or even reading through the advanced olimar discussion first post would have offered him a solid understanding of how the SAF work as well as what we all have found to be the best situations to use it, and what times shielding/dodging/air-dodging are better options.
So perhaps your right, I've not been given any such right by the moderators of SWF or by the Olimar board members in particular, obviously since posts came after mine at best I can only suggest it. However for the reasons stated above, I believe its a good suggestion that would benefit the Olimar community here, and thus I offered it.


-True
 

Mitsuko

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 13, 2008
Messages
85
I agree with WhiteCarnation, you have no right to do that. And also, you can't say things about it until you try it, soon you'll se the obvious advange, getting through disjointed hitboxes. While an airdodge may get you closer, against a long disjointed hitbox (let's say, Ikes sword) you'll still be hit, and still get knockback, and may potentialy die. with the rising SAF, you'll take damge, but be above the oponent (or ahead depending on how you DI it). you'll have the advange to get back on the stage or counter the oponent. I have full knolage of super armor frames, and i have knolage of how to use olimar, I practice for new techniques, combos, ect. I've got a much better guide i wrote on my site, and this post wasn't bad until You (TrueRedemtion) made it so. You can execute the dspecial and jump at the same time, (easiest with tilt jump). Now stop dissing about something you have no clue about.
 

TrueRedemption

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
278
Misuko, I gave you the benefit of the doubt, I figured perhaps you were referring to this:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164436
I even retested in training for 20 minutes to make sure I didn't miss it the first time I tested all of Olimar's moves. However I can assure you there is nothing special or significant about jumping and Whistling at the same time. The game allows you to jump and use the move at the same time, that is true, same as it is true with SideB Latch. However, this is not any more significant than any timing that you use whistle armor frames to take a hit with. Therefore it is as I described it above, neither new nor a revolutionary new use of old, not even a new perspective.
As for the situation you offered, I'll break it down gladly. You must have a jump in order to do this move. So if your on the stage, no jumps used, and someone is attacking you with a large hit box, you can Shield, Dodge, Roll, or Rising SAF. Only one option results in you taking damage, however 3, potentially all 4 depending on lag, offer opportunities to hit your opponent. The rising SAF only offers a couple aerial options, where the rest have the wider variety of standing ground options. Simply standing on the ground was not your primary intention though I understand that, just covering all situations, on to the next. Your in the air, second jump remaining, above the stage still, and your opponents coming at you with a huge hit box. Now here there are fewer options, jump, air dodge, normal SAF and rising SAF. Jumping doesn't necessarily remedy the situation, it only delays it in hopes your opponent cannot pressure you coming down from that jump, depending on the situation a viable option, sometimes delaying the inevitable you'll end up with just the other two options next time. Normal SAF you take the damage and continue falling, perhaps able to attack, only would really do this to get a good open window for a strong KO move. Rising SAF, it puts you above from where you were, jumping through the attack. If your opponent happens to be just as high in the air as you, or above you, this is not a bad spot to be, ideally you can take the damage and attack back, trade hits but because yours had knock back you'd have momentum. However they can very simply air dodge to avoid the attack, and suddenly your above them again, a bad spot for olimar to be. Now the air dodge, you avoid the attack, and keep falling in relative positions to where you were initially, unless he was jumping up and you falling down, in which case your below him, which is exactly where you want to be, and you didn't take any damage. Now before you start jumping all over this, I have not forgotten the point of your explanation of when to use it, against what you call long disjointed hit boxes. In theory these hit boxes are so long that you can't air dodge through them. The only attacks you can't air dodge through are multi hit attacks. Interestingly enough, you can't Whistle Armor through them either, because they last longer than the SAF. An air dodge offers more protection in any situation where you are above the stage save 1, and that is when your being attacked right as you land on the stage. To this there are plenty of answers, first off, why are you DIing into him on the stage, surely you can DI away from him. There is no harm to landing safely on the ledge, having DIed away from your opponent and away from the stage if the alternative was DIing straight into him in blind hope you land safely, that is just ignorance. So we come to what is most likely the only time that your suggested new discovery would apply to, in the air not above the stage. The options here are the same as above the stage, however add UpB. Rather than go through every possible reason to jump in recovery, I'll just mention that you can jump over your opponent to attempt to land on the stage, not a generally good idea, only suggested if you are very high above the stage yet not over it, in which case recovery isn't much a threat. Moving on to if your parallel to the stage, as I feel this is where your arguing hardest for your rising SAF. Yes, you could jump onto the stage taking the hit and resulting in a poorly spaced neutral setting near the edge. Not the worst option, missing the stage and dying certainly is worse, but i feel theres better ones. Now as mentioned earlier, you could jump and air dodge, it'll work its way just as well through any attack, same result, just no damage. However let me offer a better alternative still. Say you have this extra jump, but rather than use it right then, you avoid your opponents attack first, and then jump and grab the ledge, potentially setting you up to ledge guard or even get a ledge hog kill. There is no rule that you must immediately get onto the stage as soon as possible, you can keep your distance from your opponent, and the stage if necessary, dropping below the height that it is safe to ledge guard at, then jump up from this lower, safer position to the ledge/stage. By staying far enough out from the stage until you are at a difficult height below the stage, you effectively protect your own recovery as you are incredibly difficult to hit in that off/below the stage position. Certainly, any long disjointed hit box that comes swinging your way will last so long, that even if he is to connect through an air dodge, your opponent will surely die as well, those moves have lag because they are so long, and your not far from the bottom KO wall compared to normal situations. In conclusion, because of how effectively protected your recovery is when you are below the stage level, any time you have a second jump it is much more effective to simply drop below and jump up to the ledge rather than approaching parallel jumping in a position much more open to your opponents.

Don't get me wrong, there are certainly situations where whistle SAF are of great use, perhaps you have no jumps left and cannot recover should you be hit, but if you air dodge you'll be too far from the ledge to grab it with UpB, a WAC there is a life saver, and is the perfect application of the technique. Any time you have a jump and are threatened however, there are more safe and efficient options available. Now for the sake of simplicity I didn't even mention the fact that all 4 directional aerials of Olimar's are disjointed, meaning that it would be a matter of priority that Olimar does fairly well in, especially in the air. If you still feel I don't have a clue what i'm talking about and that there is some far off hypothetical situation this may be the best option, I'm all for your attempts at explaining it and will approach it as open minded as possible. However there is certainly no extraordinary characteristic to jumping and WACing at the same time, so at the very least its not a new discovery, simply an argument for a potential best option in a specific situation. Any non momentum changing B move can be done simultaneously while jumping, Olimar can latch as well for instance. If you have a better guide that you think would help clarify by all means I'll check it out, but if you think I'm the only one who considers this post "bad" (apart from the comic relief now offered to others by our argument) then I think your being a tad blinded attempting to defend something you stumbled upon and got caught up thinking was really new and interesting.


-True
 

Mitsuko

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 13, 2008
Messages
85
I am not blind and i do see your point. for me though, it's easier to do it to get out of a long hit box like that, because you'll be moving out of the way with the SAF, so you won't take knockback, and the ending lag will give you an advanage.
 

DanGR

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
6,860
Any non momentum changing B move can be done simultaneously while jumping,
for real, i didn't know that? does that include lucario's?(which i use so often)

To my point...

No offense, but I have to disagree whicha there True about this thread being pointless. Any thread gives ppl the opportunity to learn different ideas and suggest new strategies. they may not work well in the end, but if misuko didn't post this thread, then many of its viewers might not have known whether or not SAF whistle jumping were a viable alternative to dodging or rolling. threads start conversation. Isn't that the point of this forum?

SantaClaus, i gotta quote u sometime man.
 

TrueRedemption

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
278
DanGR I fear I came across too strongly and not pointedly enough. I never meant that suggestion of new strategies or any new perspective was worthless as soon as it was not proven useful. However i don't feel this thread ever got to that point. If you were recovering, and found yourself in a random situation where having super armor at the same moment you were jumping was the best option you felt at the time, would you hesitate to preform this combination of moves, simply because no one had ever mentioned that it could be done?

I feel like this thread isolated a singular part of recovery, and suddenly suggested that whistle armor at that small part of recovery was a good idea. Its already been said (prior even to whistle armor becoming a widely used technique) a number of times that whistling at any point in recovery can be very useful, especially since Oli's recovery is lacking. So why suddenly say that doing it at a specific time, already included in the "recovery" definition, is very useful? Its kinda like it being fairly well known that water is wet, then someone coming along and saying the water in their cup is wet... Not only that, but to claim its some new discovery, give it a name, and then suggesting it is some incredible counter to a fairly generic situation is simply misleading to the newer people around the boards.

Many people lurk forums for a long time before they ever post, if they ever post, it allows them to steadily learn and develop and then once they feel comfortable with their understanding post their own thoughts opinions and ideas. So some lurker ,relatively new to Olimar who doesn't really understand the whistle armor cancel or the ways to make the most of Olimar's limited recovery, suddenly sees this new shiney thread up at the top selling wet water in a cup, and they take it as cutting edge newest best stuff. They are looking to improve, but if they aren't able correctly judge the information they are receiving threads like this become deceptive traps causing them more harm than good, destroying SWF as a valuable resource. There is no way to suddenly break through the learning curve of these forums; the jargon, the competative nature,the discussion based on understood but not listed information, all of it must be learned in time and until then threads like this exaggerate and confuse its viewers who can't well determine the value of every new or good or advanced technique people suggest. Discussion on them makes viewers feel its topic is that much more important than other things. So it breaks down to developed olimar viewers who didn't need this pointed out, because they are familiar with WAC and its uses, and then less developed olimar viewers who now believe this is the best and perhaps only use of WAC, effectively feeding new olimars bad information. That was the hope of the advanced olimar discussion thread, inspiring great discussion of the intricacies of Olimar play. Suggesting new ideas or perspectives, but keeping it all relative to the bigger picture so not to mislead or overwhelm newcomers. Things haven't worked out that way, it was just an idea so no big loss. Thats where I'm coming from when I say its pointless though, new players are only going to be mislead/confused, and to the rest of us its nothing significant, just a small footnote that doesn't make any impact on whats considered "understood" information.

This argument has gone on far too long though, the argument itself is becoming nearly as pointless as the original post. If we want to use this thread for discussion of WAC usage, or even just continued discussion breaking down rising SAF to see if maybe there is some reliable use for it, then this thread will become more useful. However arguing why a thread is pointless in nearly useless, so I'm done on that. If you can see my reasoning in the past two posts, perhaps just re-title/edit the first post, rather than throwing around deceiving words like discovery or names or how you stumbled on it, instead give a solid detailed explanation of what it is, and then offer a specific example or two of when you feel it'd be an equal or better choice than the other options available. By specific I'm not saying fuzzy wordings about long disjointed hit boxes, but if you've found it so useful, against what actual moves? Posts like that start great discussion as more people join in bringing up details for and against it, figuring out as a community the important details and final conclusions.


-True
 

DanGR

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
6,860
hmmm....true, i totally agree w/ everything u said. we don't have to argue. :) it just seemed like u were taking things a little too far.

for everyone else, DON'T GET MISLEAD BY THE FALLACIES IN MITSUKO'S SUGGESTION. :p no offense
 

shrinkray21

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
724
Location
Brookings, SD
True is usually very good at making himself clear :D...The point of this though that when tested shows is that if you do a jump and down b you don't lose the momentum that you normally would from continuing to fall and do the down b. But true is right, nothing is special about jumping and down b at the same time that isn't related to just the down b in general.
 
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