Veril
Frame Savant
A new direction.
This is not a typical guide. This is not a recipe for playing Jigglypuff. I will show you the tools and give you the information you may not be able to find simply by playing the game. Frame data, advanced techniques and strategies, combos, KO%; these are what I can teach you. What I am willing to teach you.
The elements of Jigglypuff's game, the specific ways to approach, space, "mindgame" your opponent; all these things are for you to learn. They cannot be taught. You cannot learn how to space your moves, how to read DI, how to react in a dynamic and competitive setting, by reading. I can assure you that you will use your strategies and not mine when you're under pressure. The exact frames to autocancel aerials, the % combos work at, how to use dash canceling, rest interrupts, and other specific information gained through testing... these can augment your existing strategies and playstyle.
Don't expect the baby steps. Expect detailed, accurate and advanced information and how to apply it. My strategies are my own, but my hard data will be made public here and explained.
*All frame data was collected by myself testing frame perfect with the frame advance code (debug menu). Values are for B+ (this really matters for shieldstun). If you intend to use this information at any point, please remember to credit me or I will do terrible unspeakable things to you. As you will see, some information does not match up to the vBrawl Jiggs frame data. I will note that I currently assume the hitbox durations shown there are correct for all aerials, so credit goes to Illinialex for testing them.
My data is accurate. I use the most precise methods of testing possible. I will have a list sans explanations in the post following Airgemini's... when I get around to it lol. I've got a lot of smash related work.
I am going to try and arrange the majority of the newer guide material in this format:
Jigglyfaqs 1: Why use bair instead of fair?
Fair has greater range, a strong and weak hitbox, equivalent startup to bair, and a long sex kick. It can kill with the strong hitbox, and the weak hitbox has low knockback, making it a great move to start combos. It can setup for 3 KO moves: strong fair, rest, and dash attack. B-air has less aerial lag and an awesome knockback angle and can easily combo into itself as well as fair. The knockback is less than the strong hitbox but greater than the weak one. This means it loses out in regards to versitility, but fills a niche that f-air does not. The moves differ in regards to the autocancel points, hitstun frames, and aerial lag... thus the best times to land them to maximize frame advantage.
Alright children, gather round. This here's what we like to call frame data. Normally people look at it like, "Wow, x obvious trait sure is obvious without even seeing this data. I feel good about knowing these numbers without actually understanding what they tell me."
This is wrong. Here's an overview of some relevant frame data
Both Fair and b-air both have 7 frames of starting lag. Landing during any of these frames will cause the move to autocancel, and you will suffer only 2 frames of landing lag vs. the normal 11. The hitboxes both begin on frame 8. Bair's hitbox stays out slightly longer (8-11) than f-airs strong hitbox (8-9), though fairs weak hitbox lasts a long time (10-20). B-air also ends earlier by 5 frames while in the air (32 vs 37) and autocancels earlier (23+ vs. 27+).
When you take into account their shield hit lag differentials and shieldstun, that's when things truly become interesting...
f-air:
@Everyone: I will absolutely NOT tolerate any bs in my thread. BS will include: flaming, trolling, and spam. Also, there should be no discussion of buffs or nerfs... at least explicitly, implicit discussion is fine (say bringing up Jiggs mobility for example, without being like "buff us plz"). I will ask mod people if discussion of Jigglypuff's mobility can include buff-talk, since its a really important issue).
The things I ask of you are very simple. Please respect me, my work, and this thread. I want to help all of you out here.
(Video) My Emotional Response to the Change.
Jigglypuff got shafted in Brawl. Rest got nerfed hard, though not as hard as people thought initially. With hitstun gone, WoP was weakened substantially. Her f-smash was slower, her d-smash was incredibly punishable, and d-tilt and sing were borderline useless. Stale moves hurt her badly by limiting her use of f-air, her best KOing move.
Jigglyplus is substantially better without being as brokenly good as melee Jiggs. Rest now KOs very early, around 30% without DI from the center of FD and there are a ton of ways to combo into it. The trade off is that a KOing rest is now punishable given the knockback angle, so you still have to carefully consider when you use it. The ability to rest through moves (that I've been talking about forever) is nerfed in B+, but not gone. Its impossible to rest through most multihit moves in B+ (unlike Brawl), BUT resting through hitboxes is still possible... and really cool. Rest has effectively unbeatable priority due to invincibility frames.
Stale Move Negation was a f***ing b****. Now that its gone we can f-air again! It makes the dash attack better as well. I can't really make it clear how amazing f-air is now.
Jigglypuff still has the major weakness of being a balloon. She dies so fast and hitstun means we can't f-air as fast to get back aerial control. Disjointed hitboxes are a huge problem still. She has limited range on many of her moves, a mediocre ground game, and pound isn't quite as good since there are so few followups to it.
Jiggs is THE glass cannon of Brawl+. Incredibly deadly... super fragile. Good, but not broken.
Pros:
-Adorable
-amazing aerial combo game.
-insanely low % KOs with Rests, strong fair, WoP and gimps.
-very good grab game with numerous setups for a grab and amazing range.
-The best recovery in the game after MK.
-can't really be CGed
-Zero to death combo's (can be escaped with DI by savvy opponents) on the entire cast.
-fantastic aerial speed and maneuverability
-Best character in the game on teams
-pound
Neutral:
-A sub-par ground game made much better with dash-canceling, dash-dancing, etc
-Rest is punishable on KO and as such its use is limited to a certain % window.
-We can combo into sing. This is basically the funniest thing in the game but not especially useful unless somehow you manage to cancel it (not really practical since the combos I know of are onstage).
-Lightstepping still works. "shrug"
-Several moves are very situational.
-Throws aren't specular in any way.
Cons:
-lightest character in the game. She dies comically early.
-DON'T GET GRABBED! Throw combos (not counting the CGs) are maximally effective against Jigglypuff because of how weight dependent throw effects are calculated.
-momentum canceling is less effective than in vBrawl.
-Obviously bad matchups with Marth and GW. Several other soft and hard counters may exist.
-KO moves become much harder to land at high% when her combos become easier to escape.
-poor range and priority on most of her moves
-sing
this isn't comprehensive, feel free to add something.
Combos. We've got a lot of them. WoP is back. Since that's most of what you're probably reading this guide for that's what I'm going to be putting up.
The combos I'm currently testing are: up-tilt to up-tilt/up-smash/up-air/rest. I will attempt to have them for a good portion of the cast.
The Best Combo starters / chaining moves: up-tilt, autocanceled up-air, rising up-air, Land-canceled d-air, f/b/n-air strong and soft versions, sometimes up-smash.
Moves that always will end a combo: rest, d-smash, rollout.
Tricks and Tech
Buffering:
While it comes down to personal preference what you want to set your buffer window at, I recommend keeping it no lower than 3 (though too high a buffer is silly). Certain techniques, like the "pseudo-waveland" (a buffered sliding shield out of an autocanceled aerial or airdodge... or normal landing), really benefit from a larger frame-window.
Is there a way to change the buffer window in training? I'd really really really really like to know.
Dash-Canceling:
It is now possible to cancel a dash by crouching. This is extremely significant most importantly because it allows for DC up-tilts.
Dash-dancing:
Jigglypuff's ground game really benifits from her dash-dance. We have a lot of good options here including but not limited to: fox trotting, dash canceling (f-smash and up-tilt are good options), boost-smashing, boost-grabs, boost-pivot-grabs, dash grab, pivot grab, strong or weak dash attacks, SH aerials, RAR b-air, etc.
SHADing and The Pseudo-Waveland:
I assume you all know what SHADing is. When you airdodge and land while buffering shield you'll slide while shielding, the legnth of the slide varies by character, and Jiggs is long enough to be useful. You can buffer anything usable OOS from this, but the best use of this is to buffer shield right before an aerial autocancels, this will give you a somewhat increased range for grabs OR a safer retreating option.
There seems like there are a lot of potential uses for SHADing and the pseudowaveland. It definitely improves her ability to combo f-air and b-air into grabs.
How to kill; adorably.
Another section I have to write up. Jiggs has the best low% KO ability of any character in the game. Period. As the opponent gets to higher % however, her options shrink drastically. For now I'll just list the more common ways of KOing.
Gimping
stage spiking
comboing into rest
perfect resting
f-smash (higher %)
up-tilt (higher %)
rollout (situational largely, there are combos into it though)
d-smash edgeguard
strong dash attack (high%)
soft f-air to strong f-air combo
Offstage WoP
Charged Boost Smash (tech chase)
Moveset Overview and Combo Sequences: 4.1 info will be up soon
Combos are tested without DI on FD. I list those that register as consecutive hits in training. Eventually I'll have all the worthwhile combos on all characters here. Before you flame me, one of the reasons I did these two moves first is that DI doesn't really make as huge a difference with a purely vertical move. Some % may be too low due to human error. I try hard to make it as accurate as possible. No % are too high.
Throw formula:
[first actionable frame (w) - release frame (w) = lag]
f-throw: [30-13=25] b-throw: [50-26=24]* u-throw: [42-9=31]* d-throw: [90-67=23]
*weight dependent
Up-tilt: A fantastic move at low% for setting up combos. It comes out fast and has little ending lag. The knockback is nearly vertical and low enough early on to combo extremely well, especially into rest. At low% and high% (~140) up-tilt can easily KO or lead to a KO. The problem inherent in this move is actually landing it. Its hitbox extends a surprising distance back due to its disjoint but has pitiful range in front. The move has a very small range in general (though it has reasonable priority) and getting into position is going to be even more difficult once your opponent realizes up-tilt will cause their face to explode.
Damage: 9 ~-<~>-~ Combos into: Every other move. Seriously...
Setups: FF strong or weak nair, land-canceled d-air, autocanceled up-air, back air, weak f-air, up-smash...
Applicable Techniques / weirdness: Dash-canceled up-tilt, setting c-stick to attacks, pseudo-wavelanding, pivot walking.
Up-tilt x2: A very simple low% combo that works well on fastfallers. The best followups are rest, up-air or b-air (depending on DI).
dmg: 18%
Up-tilt to auto-canceled up air: another low% combo. This one has a small % window for each character. Within that window though its ****. You can follow it up with just about anything, but an aerial, pound or rest are the best options generally. This combo is basically inescapable if you read the DI.
dmg: 18
Up-tilt to rising up-air: a much wider % window this is a very useful combo. Followup with rest, another up-air or whatever. Combo into a footstool for extra ****.
dmg: 18
Up-tilt to rest: a low to mid% noob combo. Escapable with DI at higher % and make sure you know the % it works at. Overall really easy once started and usually KOs.
dmg: 40
Up-Smash: probably her best smash. Though it has few overt impressive qualities, it excels at one thing: tech chasing. Its KO potential pales in comparison to rest and f-air. It neither combos as well as up-tilt or autocanceled up-air, its damage isn't very good, and its not especially fast. The boost-smash is really what makes this move.
The boost-smash, because of its speed and the distance covered (the greatest of any of her moves) is a very good tech chase option. Rest, rollout and n-air are also good tech chase options (I'm gonna make a section on this). An important distinction of the boost-smash is how fast it moves and that it can combo at some %. This actually lets you set up combos into rest out of a tech chased roll! Obviously its also a good way to punish general retardness or wonderful mistakes (your call
) like people landing onstage from the helpless state, this might happen with the mother boys since sweetspotted pkt2 is an easy gimp.
Down-Smash: prepare for disappointment. This move is highly situational. It is only worth using for edgeguarding, and that isn't even true for the whole cast. When you do land d-smash as an edgeguard its pretty sweet, and you will most likely have a followup gimp KO. Don't use this move onstage, its slow, laggy and the opponent can actually tech out of the hit (so it can't really KO worth s***).
Down-smash does have a really cool charge animation and can be used as a taunt.
Setups: trip, missed tech, noob roll spam, opponent recovering with up-b, opponent attacked by bees.
Applicable Techniques / weirdness: Dash Canceling! This is really useful for getting that edgeguard.
Down-Air: People thing this move is far better than it is.
Yes, Land-canceled d-air can combo into rest without the trip now. However, if the person can SDI and has a pulse, this combo won't generally work well beyond 70-90% depending on the character size and weight. After that its incredibly easy to escape, and even close to those %, you have to read their DI well.
This move is largely eclipsed by her other aerials, which in almost all situations are superior options. The saving grace of this move is its potential to trip. Tripping the opponent gives you safer options than rest. It also has more disjoint than any other aerial she has (minus pound), and does a good deal of damage if all hits connect. Unfortunately there are fewer effective combos into this aerial than with the others.
Certain matchups make the d-air way better. Olimar is a good example, since d-air is the safest approach option (note I didn't say "safe"). Sometimes it can be used as a gimping tool, due to its sexy hitbox, but most of the time b-air and f-air are better.
Rest: "Yawn" > translation > "I am become death"Oppenheimer Jigglypuff.
When Jigglypuff falls asleep, she dreams of the nuclear chaos writhing at the center of all things. Those close to her briefly touch the mind of Jigglypuff, and are lost (Lovecraft anyone?). To understand how powerful rest is, watch the opening scene of Akira.
Rest in B+ is about as good as an oreo clondike bar (amazing). It KOs incredibly early, has many setups, and deals a ton of damage. What keeps it from being too good is how incredibly punishable it is. The comic amount of lag after this move makes it punishable on KO... really punishable. Obviously writing all the ways it could be punished would be stupid, since I'd be hurting myself by revealing this info. However, I will say that Pit, if he reads your DI, can easily wrack up massive damage off one combo (upon respawn). Ganon can just flat out kill Jiggs on respawn, even at incredibly low %.
Basically you want to combo into rest at as close to 40% as possible on most characters, since that is almost always a KOunless its the last stock, in which case go for the kill.For those of you who read all my old rest research: rest cannot interrupt multi-hit moves anywhere near as well as in vBrawl. Perfect rests still work, in the exact same manner, making rest an insane combo breaker. Depending on the situation, this may be another point to use rest.
Priority: Rest beats everything as a result of its invincibility frames. The only way it doesn't hit is if the opponent is invincible or you flat out miss.
knockback angle: 45°, so DI won't drastically change the KO%. It also means rest KOs to the side now. If rest KOs off the top, it is not punishable.
Setups: weak nair or f-air, b-air, up-air, land-canceled d-air, autocanceled up-air, pound (not universal), up-tilt, up-smash, d-throw (not universal), up-throw (not universal), ledge-canceled sing, item tricks.
Applicable Techniques / weirdness: OOS rest, Wavelanding into buffered rest, spotdodge to rest, perfect shield to rest, perfect rest, rest interrupts!
Grab and Throws: Jigglypuff has a rediculous grab range, especially with the pivot grab. In addition, she has a lot of ways to get a grab, and has a boost grab! Too bad her throws mostly suck. I say this because almost every other character has superior options out of their d-throws and some can KO (Ness, Squirtle, etc). Jiggs cannot KO with her throws, but she can get an opponent offstage with b-throws. F-throw doesn't combo into anything, but it puts the opponent in a position where its easy to f-air them. Up-throw is useless. D-throw is amazing... against some characters... when people fail at DI. In this situation, you can rest or up-air (rest) them. When they do DI, sometimes its possible to hit with a DACUS or f-air, but this isn't usually a combo (ie, don't bother). One good thing is you can pound through their airdodge when they do DI.
Overall, Jiggs d-throw followups are largely negated by DI, and there's no reason an opponent will mess it up more than once. Of course, if they do they might just lose a stock. Still, Jiggs throws aren't very good
Characters that can be d-air rested w/o DI (rough combo range): CF (0-120), DDD (0-20), Falco (0-105), Fox (0-85) "looks at Glick", Ike (0-20), Martha (0-40), Link (0-?), Pit (0-?), Sonic (0-?), Snake (0-?).
Characters that can be d-air up-aired w/o DI: the above +: dK, DK, ICs, Ivysaur, Mario, Olimar, Rob, Sheik, Wolf.
Videos
Combo Demonstration #1
Combos By character (4.0 beta)
Bowser:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 24%.
2. to up-smash: works to 28%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-54?
to rest: works to 45%.
Autocanceled Up-Air Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 49%.
2. to up-smash: works to 52%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-86
to rest: works to 67%.
Interrupt Rests
-flamethrower (or whatever its called) can be interrupted by SDI-ing into Bowser and resting.
Cpt. Falcon:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 60%.
2. to up-smash: works to 64%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 5-95
to rest: works to 90%.
Autocanceled Up-Air Combos:
1. to up-tilt: 0-93%.
2. to up-smash: 11-94%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 30?-140
to rest: 0-115%.
Interrupt Rests
-Continuous Jab can be rested through with no SDI.
Charizard:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: 0-24%.
2. to up-smash: 0-27%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-55
to rest: 0-44%.
Interrupt Rests
-Flamethrower can be interrupted in the same manner as Bowser's.
Diddy Kong:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: 0-30%.
2. to up-smash: 0-33%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-55
to rest: 0-45%.
Interrupt Rests
-Second jab maybe
-Continuous Jab can be interrupted with SDI towards diddy, out of the tail.
-Up-smash can be interrupted with SDI down before the third hit, preferably before the second since I'm not sure if it works at high % otherwise.
-Fsmash maybe
-dash attack maybe
Donkey Kong:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: 0-26%.
2. to up-smash: 0-34%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-60
to rest: 0-50%.
Interrupt Rests
-no
Falco:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: o-71%.
2. to up-smash: 14-74%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 30?-100?
to rest: 0-100%.
Autocanceled Up-Air Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 51%.
2. to up-smash: works to 58%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-100
to rest: works to 90%.
Interrupt Rests
-maybe nair with SDI
Fox:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 42%.
2. to up-smash: to 46%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: ?-77
to rest: works to 67!%
Interrupt Rests
-continuous jab without SDI
-Possibly f-air with SDI, but not likely
Ganon:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 24%.
2. to up-smash: to 27%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-54
to rest: works to 39%
Interrupt Rests
lolno
GW:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 17%.
2. to up-smash: to 20%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-44
to rest: works to 31%
Interrupt Rests
Second Jab: untested but likely
King DDD:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: 0-36%.
2. to up-smash: 0-39%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-54
to rest: 0-68%.
Interrupt Rests
Second Jab worked in vBrawl, I'm unsure if it still does.
Kirby:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 11%.
2. to up-smash: to 16%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-38
to rest: works to 26%
Interrupt Rests
Continuous Jab: possible but not realistic SDI towards kirby to rest
Lucas:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 17%.
2. to up-smash: to 21%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-33
to rest: works to 45%
Interrupt Rests
No interrupts exist, but you can SDI down at low% and punish his up-tilt.
Luigi:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 11%.
2. to up-smash: works to 16%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-40
to rest: works to 34%.
Mario, more detailed than the others for now- Rest KOs at ~30% w/o DI. Keep in mind that some things I say here (pound and up-air to rest not being so great for example) don't apply to everyone.
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 22%. Deals 18% dmg. At really low % this is great.
2. to up-smash: works to 27%. Deals 22+%. Not especially useful but not too hard either if you learn the timing.
3. to f/b/n-air: works to ~45%. Can lead to loads more aerials. You can also use pound but the followups are limited so I didn't list it.
4. to up-air: works to 60%! (rising up-air to rest is not where its at though)
to rest: works to 40%. Basically ****.
Autocanceled Up-Air Combos: the best combo starter Jiggs has imo
1. to up-tilt: works up to 42%. Think about it...
2. to rising up-air: works from 28-85%.
to rest: works up to 74%. I know.
These moves cannot be used as combo starters on Mario: f-tilt, d-tilt?, dash-attack, rollout, f/d-smash, any throw, rest (duh), and pound. Pound does not combo (on Mario)... stop saying that it does.
Meatknight:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 15%.
2. to up-smash: works to 21%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-38
to rest: works to 37%.
Martha:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 33%.
2. to up-smash: works to 38%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-63
to rest: works to 60%.
Autocanceled Up-Air Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 51%.
2. to up-smash: works to 58%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-100
to rest: works to 90%.
Ness:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 15%.
2. to up-smash: to 18%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-43
to rest: works to 28%
Sheik:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 27%.
2. to up-smash: works to 29%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-53
to rest: works to 41%.
Snake:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 49%. omgwtfhax
2. to up-smash: works to 51%. Okay, special treatment goes to this one. Even with DI, at higher %, you can combo up-tilt into a FULLY CHARGED boost smash or running up-smash if you read the DI correctly. This gives you a 27-30 damage combo at higher %.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: ?-83
to rest: 0-71%.
Wario:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: 0-16%.
2. to up-smash: 0-21%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-33
to rest: 0-48%.
Wolf:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: 0-23%.
2. to up-smash: 0-27%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-53
to rest: 0-38%.
Yoshi:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 23%.
2. to up-smash: ? to 24%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 10-63
to rest: works to 44%.
Feel free to submit some! Jiggs needs a combo list!
This is not a typical guide. This is not a recipe for playing Jigglypuff. I will show you the tools and give you the information you may not be able to find simply by playing the game. Frame data, advanced techniques and strategies, combos, KO%; these are what I can teach you. What I am willing to teach you.
The elements of Jigglypuff's game, the specific ways to approach, space, "mindgame" your opponent; all these things are for you to learn. They cannot be taught. You cannot learn how to space your moves, how to read DI, how to react in a dynamic and competitive setting, by reading. I can assure you that you will use your strategies and not mine when you're under pressure. The exact frames to autocancel aerials, the % combos work at, how to use dash canceling, rest interrupts, and other specific information gained through testing... these can augment your existing strategies and playstyle.
Don't expect the baby steps. Expect detailed, accurate and advanced information and how to apply it. My strategies are my own, but my hard data will be made public here and explained.
*All frame data was collected by myself testing frame perfect with the frame advance code (debug menu). Values are for B+ (this really matters for shieldstun). If you intend to use this information at any point, please remember to credit me or I will do terrible unspeakable things to you. As you will see, some information does not match up to the vBrawl Jiggs frame data. I will note that I currently assume the hitbox durations shown there are correct for all aerials, so credit goes to Illinialex for testing them.
My data is accurate. I use the most precise methods of testing possible. I will have a list sans explanations in the post following Airgemini's... when I get around to it lol. I've got a lot of smash related work.
I am going to try and arrange the majority of the newer guide material in this format:
Jigglyfaqs 1: Why use bair instead of fair?
Fair has greater range, a strong and weak hitbox, equivalent startup to bair, and a long sex kick. It can kill with the strong hitbox, and the weak hitbox has low knockback, making it a great move to start combos. It can setup for 3 KO moves: strong fair, rest, and dash attack. B-air has less aerial lag and an awesome knockback angle and can easily combo into itself as well as fair. The knockback is less than the strong hitbox but greater than the weak one. This means it loses out in regards to versitility, but fills a niche that f-air does not. The moves differ in regards to the autocancel points, hitstun frames, and aerial lag... thus the best times to land them to maximize frame advantage.
Alright children, gather round. This here's what we like to call frame data. Normally people look at it like, "Wow, x obvious trait sure is obvious without even seeing this data. I feel good about knowing these numbers without actually understanding what they tell me."
This is wrong. Here's an overview of some relevant frame data
Both Fair and b-air both have 7 frames of starting lag. Landing during any of these frames will cause the move to autocancel, and you will suffer only 2 frames of landing lag vs. the normal 11. The hitboxes both begin on frame 8. Bair's hitbox stays out slightly longer (8-11) than f-airs strong hitbox (8-9), though fairs weak hitbox lasts a long time (10-20). B-air also ends earlier by 5 frames while in the air (32 vs 37) and autocancels earlier (23+ vs. 27+).
When you take into account their shield hit lag differentials and shieldstun, that's when things truly become interesting...
f-air:
@Everyone: I will absolutely NOT tolerate any bs in my thread. BS will include: flaming, trolling, and spam. Also, there should be no discussion of buffs or nerfs... at least explicitly, implicit discussion is fine (say bringing up Jiggs mobility for example, without being like "buff us plz"). I will ask mod people if discussion of Jigglypuff's mobility can include buff-talk, since its a really important issue).
The things I ask of you are very simple. Please respect me, my work, and this thread. I want to help all of you out here.
Dead but Dreaming:
Changes from Brawl to Brawl+
Changes from Brawl to Brawl+
(Video) My Emotional Response to the Change.
Jigglypuff got shafted in Brawl. Rest got nerfed hard, though not as hard as people thought initially. With hitstun gone, WoP was weakened substantially. Her f-smash was slower, her d-smash was incredibly punishable, and d-tilt and sing were borderline useless. Stale moves hurt her badly by limiting her use of f-air, her best KOing move.
Jigglyplus is substantially better without being as brokenly good as melee Jiggs. Rest now KOs very early, around 30% without DI from the center of FD and there are a ton of ways to combo into it. The trade off is that a KOing rest is now punishable given the knockback angle, so you still have to carefully consider when you use it. The ability to rest through moves (that I've been talking about forever) is nerfed in B+, but not gone. Its impossible to rest through most multihit moves in B+ (unlike Brawl), BUT resting through hitboxes is still possible... and really cool. Rest has effectively unbeatable priority due to invincibility frames.
Stale Move Negation was a f***ing b****. Now that its gone we can f-air again! It makes the dash attack better as well. I can't really make it clear how amazing f-air is now.
Jigglypuff still has the major weakness of being a balloon. She dies so fast and hitstun means we can't f-air as fast to get back aerial control. Disjointed hitboxes are a huge problem still. She has limited range on many of her moves, a mediocre ground game, and pound isn't quite as good since there are so few followups to it.
Jiggs is THE glass cannon of Brawl+. Incredibly deadly... super fragile. Good, but not broken.
I'm going to respond preemptively to the John's and calls to nerf rest... with emoticons.
No!
Pros and Cons of Jigglyplus
Pros:
-Adorable
-amazing aerial combo game.
-insanely low % KOs with Rests, strong fair, WoP and gimps.
-very good grab game with numerous setups for a grab and amazing range.
-The best recovery in the game after MK.
-can't really be CGed
-Zero to death combo's (can be escaped with DI by savvy opponents) on the entire cast.
-fantastic aerial speed and maneuverability
-Best character in the game on teams
-pound
Neutral:
-A sub-par ground game made much better with dash-canceling, dash-dancing, etc
-Rest is punishable on KO and as such its use is limited to a certain % window.
-We can combo into sing. This is basically the funniest thing in the game but not especially useful unless somehow you manage to cancel it (not really practical since the combos I know of are onstage).
-Lightstepping still works. "shrug"
-Several moves are very situational.
-Throws aren't specular in any way.
Cons:
-lightest character in the game. She dies comically early.
-DON'T GET GRABBED! Throw combos (not counting the CGs) are maximally effective against Jigglypuff because of how weight dependent throw effects are calculated.
-momentum canceling is less effective than in vBrawl.
-Obviously bad matchups with Marth and GW. Several other soft and hard counters may exist.
-KO moves become much harder to land at high% when her combos become easier to escape.
-poor range and priority on most of her moves
-sing
this isn't comprehensive, feel free to add something.
Combos. We've got a lot of them. WoP is back. Since that's most of what you're probably reading this guide for that's what I'm going to be putting up.
The combos I'm currently testing are: up-tilt to up-tilt/up-smash/up-air/rest. I will attempt to have them for a good portion of the cast.
The Best Combo starters / chaining moves: up-tilt, autocanceled up-air, rising up-air, Land-canceled d-air, f/b/n-air strong and soft versions, sometimes up-smash.
Moves that always will end a combo: rest, d-smash, rollout.
Tricks and Tech
Buffering:
While it comes down to personal preference what you want to set your buffer window at, I recommend keeping it no lower than 3 (though too high a buffer is silly). Certain techniques, like the "pseudo-waveland" (a buffered sliding shield out of an autocanceled aerial or airdodge... or normal landing), really benefit from a larger frame-window.
Is there a way to change the buffer window in training? I'd really really really really like to know.
Dash-Canceling:
It is now possible to cancel a dash by crouching. This is extremely significant most importantly because it allows for DC up-tilts.
Dash-dancing:
Jigglypuff's ground game really benifits from her dash-dance. We have a lot of good options here including but not limited to: fox trotting, dash canceling (f-smash and up-tilt are good options), boost-smashing, boost-grabs, boost-pivot-grabs, dash grab, pivot grab, strong or weak dash attacks, SH aerials, RAR b-air, etc.
SHADing and The Pseudo-Waveland:
I assume you all know what SHADing is. When you airdodge and land while buffering shield you'll slide while shielding, the legnth of the slide varies by character, and Jiggs is long enough to be useful. You can buffer anything usable OOS from this, but the best use of this is to buffer shield right before an aerial autocancels, this will give you a somewhat increased range for grabs OR a safer retreating option.
There seems like there are a lot of potential uses for SHADing and the pseudowaveland. It definitely improves her ability to combo f-air and b-air into grabs.
How to kill; adorably.
Another section I have to write up. Jiggs has the best low% KO ability of any character in the game. Period. As the opponent gets to higher % however, her options shrink drastically. For now I'll just list the more common ways of KOing.
Gimping
stage spiking
comboing into rest
perfect resting
f-smash (higher %)
up-tilt (higher %)
rollout (situational largely, there are combos into it though)
d-smash edgeguard
strong dash attack (high%)
soft f-air to strong f-air combo
Offstage WoP
Charged Boost Smash (tech chase)
Moveset Overview and Combo Sequences: 4.1 info will be up soon
Combos are tested without DI on FD. I list those that register as consecutive hits in training. Eventually I'll have all the worthwhile combos on all characters here. Before you flame me, one of the reasons I did these two moves first is that DI doesn't really make as huge a difference with a purely vertical move. Some % may be too low due to human error. I try hard to make it as accurate as possible. No % are too high.
Throw formula:
[first actionable frame (w) - release frame (w) = lag]
f-throw: [30-13=25] b-throw: [50-26=24]* u-throw: [42-9=31]* d-throw: [90-67=23]
*weight dependent
Up-tilt: A fantastic move at low% for setting up combos. It comes out fast and has little ending lag. The knockback is nearly vertical and low enough early on to combo extremely well, especially into rest. At low% and high% (~140) up-tilt can easily KO or lead to a KO. The problem inherent in this move is actually landing it. Its hitbox extends a surprising distance back due to its disjoint but has pitiful range in front. The move has a very small range in general (though it has reasonable priority) and getting into position is going to be even more difficult once your opponent realizes up-tilt will cause their face to explode.
Damage: 9 ~-<~>-~ Combos into: Every other move. Seriously...
Setups: FF strong or weak nair, land-canceled d-air, autocanceled up-air, back air, weak f-air, up-smash...
Applicable Techniques / weirdness: Dash-canceled up-tilt, setting c-stick to attacks, pseudo-wavelanding, pivot walking.
Up-tilt x2: A very simple low% combo that works well on fastfallers. The best followups are rest, up-air or b-air (depending on DI).
dmg: 18%
Up-tilt to auto-canceled up air: another low% combo. This one has a small % window for each character. Within that window though its ****. You can follow it up with just about anything, but an aerial, pound or rest are the best options generally. This combo is basically inescapable if you read the DI.
dmg: 18
Up-tilt to rising up-air: a much wider % window this is a very useful combo. Followup with rest, another up-air or whatever. Combo into a footstool for extra ****.
dmg: 18
Up-tilt to rest: a low to mid% noob combo. Escapable with DI at higher % and make sure you know the % it works at. Overall really easy once started and usually KOs.
dmg: 40
Up-Smash: probably her best smash. Though it has few overt impressive qualities, it excels at one thing: tech chasing. Its KO potential pales in comparison to rest and f-air. It neither combos as well as up-tilt or autocanceled up-air, its damage isn't very good, and its not especially fast. The boost-smash is really what makes this move.
The boost-smash, because of its speed and the distance covered (the greatest of any of her moves) is a very good tech chase option. Rest, rollout and n-air are also good tech chase options (I'm gonna make a section on this). An important distinction of the boost-smash is how fast it moves and that it can combo at some %. This actually lets you set up combos into rest out of a tech chased roll! Obviously its also a good way to punish general retardness or wonderful mistakes (your call
) like people landing onstage from the helpless state, this might happen with the mother boys since sweetspotted pkt2 is an easy gimp.Down-Smash: prepare for disappointment. This move is highly situational. It is only worth using for edgeguarding, and that isn't even true for the whole cast. When you do land d-smash as an edgeguard its pretty sweet, and you will most likely have a followup gimp KO. Don't use this move onstage, its slow, laggy and the opponent can actually tech out of the hit (so it can't really KO worth s***).
Down-smash does have a really cool charge animation and can be used as a taunt.
Setups: trip, missed tech, noob roll spam, opponent recovering with up-b, opponent attacked by bees.
Applicable Techniques / weirdness: Dash Canceling! This is really useful for getting that edgeguard.
Down-Air: People thing this move is far better than it is.
Yes, Land-canceled d-air can combo into rest without the trip now. However, if the person can SDI and has a pulse, this combo won't generally work well beyond 70-90% depending on the character size and weight. After that its incredibly easy to escape, and even close to those %, you have to read their DI well.
This move is largely eclipsed by her other aerials, which in almost all situations are superior options. The saving grace of this move is its potential to trip. Tripping the opponent gives you safer options than rest. It also has more disjoint than any other aerial she has (minus pound), and does a good deal of damage if all hits connect. Unfortunately there are fewer effective combos into this aerial than with the others.
Certain matchups make the d-air way better. Olimar is a good example, since d-air is the safest approach option (note I didn't say "safe"). Sometimes it can be used as a gimping tool, due to its sexy hitbox, but most of the time b-air and f-air are better.
Rest: "Yawn" > translation > "I am become death"
When Jigglypuff falls asleep, she dreams of the nuclear chaos writhing at the center of all things. Those close to her briefly touch the mind of Jigglypuff, and are lost (Lovecraft anyone?). To understand how powerful rest is, watch the opening scene of Akira.
Rest in B+ is about as good as an oreo clondike bar (amazing). It KOs incredibly early, has many setups, and deals a ton of damage. What keeps it from being too good is how incredibly punishable it is. The comic amount of lag after this move makes it punishable on KO... really punishable. Obviously writing all the ways it could be punished would be stupid, since I'd be hurting myself by revealing this info. However, I will say that Pit, if he reads your DI, can easily wrack up massive damage off one combo (upon respawn). Ganon can just flat out kill Jiggs on respawn, even at incredibly low %.
Basically you want to combo into rest at as close to 40% as possible on most characters, since that is almost always a KOunless its the last stock, in which case go for the kill.For those of you who read all my old rest research: rest cannot interrupt multi-hit moves anywhere near as well as in vBrawl. Perfect rests still work, in the exact same manner, making rest an insane combo breaker. Depending on the situation, this may be another point to use rest.
Priority: Rest beats everything as a result of its invincibility frames. The only way it doesn't hit is if the opponent is invincible or you flat out miss.
knockback angle: 45°, so DI won't drastically change the KO%. It also means rest KOs to the side now. If rest KOs off the top, it is not punishable.
Setups: weak nair or f-air, b-air, up-air, land-canceled d-air, autocanceled up-air, pound (not universal), up-tilt, up-smash, d-throw (not universal), up-throw (not universal), ledge-canceled sing, item tricks.
Applicable Techniques / weirdness: OOS rest, Wavelanding into buffered rest, spotdodge to rest, perfect shield to rest, perfect rest, rest interrupts!
Grab and Throws: Jigglypuff has a rediculous grab range, especially with the pivot grab. In addition, she has a lot of ways to get a grab, and has a boost grab! Too bad her throws mostly suck. I say this because almost every other character has superior options out of their d-throws and some can KO (Ness, Squirtle, etc). Jiggs cannot KO with her throws, but she can get an opponent offstage with b-throws. F-throw doesn't combo into anything, but it puts the opponent in a position where its easy to f-air them. Up-throw is useless. D-throw is amazing... against some characters... when people fail at DI. In this situation, you can rest or up-air (rest) them. When they do DI, sometimes its possible to hit with a DACUS or f-air, but this isn't usually a combo (ie, don't bother). One good thing is you can pound through their airdodge when they do DI.
Overall, Jiggs d-throw followups are largely negated by DI, and there's no reason an opponent will mess it up more than once. Of course, if they do they might just lose a stock. Still, Jiggs throws aren't very good
Characters that can be d-air rested w/o DI (rough combo range): CF (0-120), DDD (0-20), Falco (0-105), Fox (0-85) "looks at Glick", Ike (0-20), Martha (0-40), Link (0-?), Pit (0-?), Sonic (0-?), Snake (0-?).
Characters that can be d-air up-aired w/o DI: the above +: dK, DK, ICs, Ivysaur, Mario, Olimar, Rob, Sheik, Wolf.
Videos
Combo Demonstration #1
Combos By character (4.0 beta)
Bowser:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 24%.
2. to up-smash: works to 28%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-54?
to rest: works to 45%.Autocanceled Up-Air Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 49%.
2. to up-smash: works to 52%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-86
to rest: works to 67%. Interrupt Rests
-flamethrower (or whatever its called) can be interrupted by SDI-ing into Bowser and resting.
Cpt. Falcon:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 60%.
2. to up-smash: works to 64%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 5-95
to rest: works to 90%.Autocanceled Up-Air Combos:
1. to up-tilt: 0-93%.
2. to up-smash: 11-94%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 30?-140
to rest: 0-115%.Interrupt Rests
-Continuous Jab can be rested through with no SDI.
Charizard:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: 0-24%.
2. to up-smash: 0-27%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-55
to rest: 0-44%.Interrupt Rests
-Flamethrower can be interrupted in the same manner as Bowser's.
Diddy Kong:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: 0-30%.
2. to up-smash: 0-33%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-55
to rest: 0-45%.Interrupt Rests
-Second jab maybe
-Continuous Jab can be interrupted with SDI towards diddy, out of the tail.
-Up-smash can be interrupted with SDI down before the third hit, preferably before the second since I'm not sure if it works at high % otherwise.
-Fsmash maybe
-dash attack maybe
Donkey Kong:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: 0-26%.
2. to up-smash: 0-34%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-60
to rest: 0-50%.Interrupt Rests
-no
Falco:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: o-71%.
2. to up-smash: 14-74%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 30?-100?
to rest: 0-100%.Autocanceled Up-Air Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 51%.
2. to up-smash: works to 58%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-100
to rest: works to 90%.Interrupt Rests
-maybe nair with SDI
Fox:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 42%.
2. to up-smash: to 46%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: ?-77
to rest: works to 67!%Interrupt Rests
-continuous jab without SDI
-Possibly f-air with SDI, but not likely
Ganon:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 24%.
2. to up-smash: to 27%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-54
to rest: works to 39%Interrupt Rests
lolno
GW:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 17%.
2. to up-smash: to 20%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-44
to rest: works to 31%Interrupt Rests
Second Jab: untested but likely
King DDD:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: 0-36%.
2. to up-smash: 0-39%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-54
to rest: 0-68%.Interrupt Rests
Second Jab worked in vBrawl, I'm unsure if it still does.
Kirby:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 11%.
2. to up-smash: to 16%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-38
to rest: works to 26%Interrupt Rests
Continuous Jab: possible but not realistic SDI towards kirby to rest
Lucas:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 17%.
2. to up-smash: to 21%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-33
to rest: works to 45%Interrupt Rests
No interrupts exist, but you can SDI down at low% and punish his up-tilt.
Luigi:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 11%.
2. to up-smash: works to 16%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-40
to rest: works to 34%.Mario, more detailed than the others for now- Rest KOs at ~30% w/o DI. Keep in mind that some things I say here (pound and up-air to rest not being so great for example) don't apply to everyone.
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 22%. Deals 18% dmg. At really low % this is great.
2. to up-smash: works to 27%. Deals 22+%. Not especially useful but not too hard either if you learn the timing.
3. to f/b/n-air: works to ~45%. Can lead to loads more aerials. You can also use pound but the followups are limited so I didn't list it.
4. to up-air: works to 60%! (rising up-air to rest is not where its at though)
to rest: works to 40%. Basically ****.Autocanceled Up-Air Combos: the best combo starter Jiggs has imo
1. to up-tilt: works up to 42%. Think about it...
2. to rising up-air: works from 28-85%.
to rest: works up to 74%. I know.These moves cannot be used as combo starters on Mario: f-tilt, d-tilt?, dash-attack, rollout, f/d-smash, any throw, rest (duh), and pound. Pound does not combo (on Mario)... stop saying that it does.
Meatknight:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 15%.
2. to up-smash: works to 21%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-38
to rest: works to 37%.Martha:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 33%.
2. to up-smash: works to 38%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-63
to rest: works to 60%.Autocanceled Up-Air Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 51%.
2. to up-smash: works to 58%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-100
to rest: works to 90%.Ness:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 15%.
2. to up-smash: to 18%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-43
to rest: works to 28%Sheik:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 27%.
2. to up-smash: works to 29%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-53
to rest: works to 41%.Snake:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 49%. omgwtfhax
2. to up-smash: works to 51%. Okay, special treatment goes to this one. Even with DI, at higher %, you can combo up-tilt into a FULLY CHARGED boost smash or running up-smash if you read the DI correctly. This gives you a 27-30 damage combo at higher %.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: ?-83
to rest: 0-71%.Wario:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: 0-16%.
2. to up-smash: 0-21%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-33
to rest: 0-48%.Wolf:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: 0-23%.
2. to up-smash: 0-27%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 0-53
to rest: 0-38%.Yoshi:
Up-Tilt Combos:
1. to up-tilt: works to 23%.
2. to up-smash: ? to 24%.
3. not tested
4. to up-air: 10-63
to rest: works to 44%.Feel free to submit some! Jiggs needs a combo list!
