Newbie Mafia 6 - OVER! Who lived happily ever after in Newbie Land?!

[#HBC | Ryker]

I understand your point Ryker, I just disagree with saying in a game where we're teaching people how to play that "Okay, now this is the part of the game where you should just vote for people for no reason." This gives new players no indication of how this process helps them to find scum, and gives scum directions on how to hide behind random votes for a while. If you're going to encourage people to take part in RVS, it would be advantageous to explain not only what it is, but why it's done, and given what you're currently saying, how to utilize it to its fullest. Just saying that "most people don't take advantage of it" doesn't tell us how we can actually do that.

Ah, but that's the beauty of it, is it not? Random voting stage is a tricky thing. There are multiple ways to utilize it, but none of them work if you outright say that it is indeed what you're doing. Don't ask me how to do it, but rather watch and see what you can pick up. Tis better to learn by example, wouldn't you say?

 

[Kataefi]

yeah mcfox i think frohawk (by the sound of that post) wanted to know what RVS was in general, not why it's underestimated (as ryker is suggesting) - I don't mind answering:

@Frohawk: swords addressed RVS @post #20 RVS: Emphasis onvotes! - there may or may not be reasoning why someone gives a vote. Really you're looking to place pressure on players this way to get them to speak up, slip up or say something that may get the ball rolling.

It's not always this mechanical - some people prefer RQS, which emphasises questions/discussion over votes.

A mixture of the 2 at this stage is always cool, but it's totally your call! A lot of things can often happen at the start of the game, some players even get creative.
_

Mcfox you can nip your complaints about swords/ryker misinforming newbies right in the bud by filling in the holes regarding RVS yourself; countering misinformation with information would ruin that hypothetical scum 'attempt' you're highlighting. That is... unless you want to discuss game theory with Ryker with the intent in countering his points, which isn't really scumhunting imo.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

I have a question for everyone:

What do you think is better, RVS or RQS? Why?

@Guide: Having been in only one mafia game so far, I can't really say that I have a play style yet. I kinda think that the best play style is an adaptive play style, but that's just me.

 

[McFox]

Mcfox you can nip your complaints about swords/ryker misinforming newbies right in the bud by filling in the holes regarding RVS yourself;

Except I'm not the one saying that RVS is all that great? RVS is not a required part of the game, and in my opinion not at all necessary. So why would I argue against something that hasn't been argued for yet?

countering misinformation with information would ruin that hypothetical scum 'attempt' you're highlighting. That is... unless you want to discuss game theory with Ryker with the intent in countering his points, which isn't really scumhunting imo.

Did I use the word "scum" in any of my previous posts? I didn't say I was scumhunting, I wanted them to explain why they feel RVS is a good and necessary part of the game, when I feel that it's not.

 

[hidajiremi]

My feeling from games I've observed is that random voting hashes out bad feelings and not much else. Question and answer seems like it's a lot more fruitful in general.


Hida Jiremi

 

[vanderzant]

Good Morning Everyone! I have some evidence for us!!!!

Hello innocent little newbies & villainous 'ole ICs,

So I'm going to Vote: Ryker, because I'm pretty sure our host wouldn't lie to us.

And I'm one of the IC's.
Now, I want to ask what experience everyone has had with mafia in general. IRL, AIMafia, Forum Mafia, etc.

Personally, I've only ever played IRC mafia before. It's a lot more strategy based then psychological (deepest thinking required: "You're scum" "No you're scum!" "No YOU'RE SCUM!!!").

@ everyone: How would you describe your own playstyle? Are you aggressive, cautious, etc?

Well, I'm not really sure seeing as it's my first "real" game of mafia. Personally, I believe I am good at playing the devils advocate, so I'm probably going to think that EVERYONE is a lying scum. I'll see how it plays out though.

I have a question for everyone:

What do you think is better, RVS or RQS? Why?

Again, I'm new, but I'm going to assume that RQS may be better. I think that people will generally answer questions more seriously than they throw votes around in RVS. But yeah, I don't really know tbh.

Also, I want to say that I really like the set up of the game. I'm interested to see what sort of element the "Cult Leader" role will/could add to the game.

Q: Does anyone else have some thoughts on the set up? Have you tried a similar set up to this before? What worked, etc.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I have a question for everyone:

What do you think is better, RVS or RQS? Why?

RQS is forced and is a mockery. I wholly dislike it when people attempt to use it by calling it that. It is a tool to be used during RVS not in place of.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

@The Guide

Unorthodox.

 

[The_Guide]

@ Dancer (I'm just going to call you this for the rest of the game, so I can call swordsrbroken swords):

Personally, I don't see why they can't co-exist. Both can bring about valuable information, without inhibiting the other.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

I never said they couldn't. I was just wondering which one you would chose if you could only choose one. Perhaps I should of clarified that earlier.

@Ryker: What makes a RQS any more forced than a RVS? Also why should random questions be part of a RVS and not the other way around? I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just wondering.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

What do you think is better, RVS or RQS? Why?

RVS, it feels more natural.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

RVS, it feels more natural.

This.

"RQS" adds no form of pressure. It's a sham. You have to back it up or no one ever feels threatened.

 

[vanderzant]

This.

"RQS" adds no form of pressure. It's a sham. You have to back it up or no one ever feels threatened.

Could of either you elaborate on why you feel "RQS" adds no pressure. I think I agree with this general sentiment, but I feel similar about RVS.

The way I see it, if a user voted to lynch me in RVS, I don't even have to respond to it if I choose. For example, Ryker, you haven't (and show no intention) to respond to my own random vote that I placed on you (due it being random, of course)

I believe that if I instead had asked you a random question (like I am now), you would be more inclined to answer it.

I'm failing to see how a "Random Vote" adds pressure, so at least "an answer" is better than nothing, no?

Question for IC's: Is it normal in a mafia game for people discuss the random vote stage from an outsider perspective (while at the same time distancing themselves from the process/stage itself), in such depth, rather than participating in it? Is this action pro town/mafia in your opinion?

 

[Swiss]

RVS/RVQ

Are there any stats on this? I'd love to know (assuming you can classify is RVS/RVQ was used) which has a higher hit rate, with the number of mafia games that have been played I reckon we might be able to get a statistically significant answer.

'Course it'd be difficult to do...

 

[vanderzant]

@ McFox

You seem to be set on arguing the advice/discussion points that other players (mostly ICs) have given, as opposed to questioning them or asking for elaboration. Not only this, but it strikes me as if you are trying "win" each argument, and in turn "end it" or simply dismiss the opinions of others, with no room for others to discuss. For example:

I understand your point Ryker, I just disagree with saying in a game where we're teaching people how to play that "Okay, now this is the part of the game where you should just vote for people for no reason." This gives new players no indication of how this process helps them to find scum, and gives scum directions on how to hide behind random votes for a while. If you're going to encourage people to take part in RVS, it would be advantageous to explain not only what it is, but why it's done, and given what you're currently saying, how to utilize it to its fullest. Just saying that "most people don't take advantage of it" doesn't tell us how we can actually do that.

You dismiss what (to me) seems like a genuine attempt at an introduction post, and an explanation aimed at newbies from Ryker.

Except I'm not the one saying that RVS is all that great? RVS is not a required part of the game, and in my opinion not at all necessary. So why would I argue against something that hasn't been argued for yet?

This time, you end with a rhetorical question, implying that you don't expect nor ask for an answer. You also dismiss someone else's idea/opinion.

Did I use the word "scum" in any of my previous posts? I didn't say I was scumhunting, I wanted them to explain why they feel RVS is a good and necessary part of the game, when I feel that it's not.

Again with the rhetorical question.

See what I mean? Notice that you don't pose any questions to other players in these posts, or leave your points open to discuss. Apart from yourself, I've noticed a general trend of people questioning almost everything others say, as well as asking for others to elaborate.

This "playstyle" sticks out to me as quite different from any other present in this thread thus far. Not just the negative tone I get from your posts, but the immediate move to disregard the opinion of others. Is this normally how you approach mafia games? Please let me know if you think I'm reading into this too much.

I'll also take this time to mention that I'm in a different timezone to most other people, so I'll probably be posting in the thread at weird times when no one is around (like now).

 

[McFox]

I've only really asked one question that I want answered. This is a game for new players, and Ryker feels that people don't utilize RVS to its fullest. I want him to explain why. vander perfectly summed up why I feel RVS has little value, so I'd like to see why Ryker thinks it's so handy. For example, my "explanation" about my name to Swiss was just as empty as his vote for me was. I could have ignored it completely and that wouldn't have been a tell, because there was nothing behind his vote. It was just random.

So I'm waiting for Ryker to explain how random votes put any pressure on anyone, seeing as how by definition they aren't backed by anything.

 

[McFox]

@vander - No, it's not necessarily "normal" for people to discuss RVS from the outside, but then, it isn't normal to have a game where more than half of the players are completely new, either.

@Swiss - There are no stats on RVS vs. RQS that I know about.

 

[SwordsRbroken]

@dancer i'm thinking RVS, because RVS is good to apply some pressure. Take riddle in Wonderland mafia by Circus go to the DG archives to find it. He was asked a question, put up the lamest reply ever, and got quicklynched. (quicklynched means he was lynched long before the deadline.) He was scum.

 

[Kataefi]

Did I use the word "scum" in any of my previous posts?

o no he di'ent!

This gives new players no indication of how this process helps them to find scum, and gives scum directions on how to hide behind random votes for a while.

o yes he DID! =p

I take 'finding scum' as scumhunting and the latter as the scum attempt you were describing. also these posts...

#37
#40
#56

...sound as if you're after a nice chitchat with ryker on the game theory behind RVS, which will end up going back and forth and looks set to take up a lot of discussion for the day whilst not really addressing how we should go about identifying actual scumtells.

Except I'm not the one saying that RVS is all that great?

I never said you did. I said you're complaining about Swords/Ryker giving out misinformation that you can counter with information of your own:

Why are you complaining?
"IT'S BAD!" says good ol' Mcfox!
So where and what is your alternative?
"........."

how do you think we should go about this day then?
_
_
_

@D-d-d-d-dancer: I don't think it's about RVS vs RQS as if it's the epic, all-time AMAZING battle we're imagining it to be. I think both should supplement each other! Some people like only the sharp pressure of a vote, others like only the flow of discussion. some like both, others like none and simply act crazy, e.g. Summoner in Grammys2 used a blunt "YOU'RE SCUM" approach to bait responses (but this unfortunately got him lynched first despite being town).

In a nutshell (as town) you're all looking differently for the same things --> your scumtells - scumtells being what you look for that you think is scum in someone. How you want to look for your scumtells is the beauty of your own playstyle.
_
_

Swords I think you contradicted yourself there with that example!

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Kataefi, what kind of major scumtells will you be looking for?

 

[SwordsRbroken]

@dancer i'm thinking RVS, because RVS is good to apply some pressure. Take riddle in Wonderland mafia by Circus go to the DG archives to find it. He was voted randomly and a bandwagon started. He was then questioned. He put up the lamest reply ever, and got quicklynched. (quicklynched means he was lynched long before the deadline.) He was scum.

Edited for clarification. Sorry.

 

[Swiss]

I'm not sure McFox's replies have been quite sufficient to satisfy me, to my mind, he hasn't really addressed the points made at him, especially those by Vander.

I'm saying this so he can rethink what he means, and clarify the situation.

 

[xxFrohawkxx]

Well I have some questions.

What if the town doctor is NK'd does that mean his patient survieves?

Does the cult leader already have a cult buddy?

Isn't the Town Miller just a powered up VT since you don't know your even a miller?

If a doctor protects a Macho cop and he's wrong does this mean that Macho is dead?

 

[Xiivi]

Deadline has been set for April 19th, 2010 11:59AM EST.

It's takes 7/12 to lynch!

Day 1 Vote Count 1:​

hidajiremi: Sworddancer. (

)
Kataefi: RocketPSIence (

)
McFox: Swiss (

)
RocketPSIence: Ryker (

)
Ryker: vanderzant (

)
Swiss: The_Guide (

)
Sworddancer.: (0)
SwordsRbroken: (0)
The_Guide: (0)
vanderzant: (0)
VitaminC: (0)
xxFrohawkxx: (0)
Not Voting: hidajiremi, Kataefi, McFox, SwordsRbroken, VitaminC, xxFrohawkxx (

)

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Vote: Swiss

 

[Swiss]

Well I have some questions.

What if the town doctor is NK'd does that mean his patient survieves?

Does the cult leader already have a cult buddy?

Isn't the Town Miller just a powered up VT since you don't know your even a miller?

If a doctor protects a Macho cop and he's wrong does this mean that Macho is dead?

If the doctor is NK'd (by mafia) that means no-one can die that night anyway, so yeah his 'protected' person would survive.

No

Yes?

What do you mean that he's 'wrong'?



Someone had better confirm that though, this is just what I think is right.


Don't know how to multi quote here so

@ Ryker: Haha, so tempted to OMGUS vote you there, at least pretend to have a reason!

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Unvote; Vote: Mayling
Sup boi?

 

[xxFrohawkxx]

mayling droped a long time ago nice try though.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

whoops... my bad, I was looking at post count *heh*

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Unvote

Vote: Swiss

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Ryker, why didn't you jump on my misvote?

 

[Swiss]

Unvote

Vote: Swiss

You er, you voted me.

Then in one post:

Unvoted me.

Voted me.




Say what?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Ryker, why didn't you jump on my misvote?

Because it was an honest mistake. I almost did the same thing and I'm the one who took her place.

Unvote

Vote: Swiss

Wagon please.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Alright.

Unvote; Vote: Swiss

Oh, you scum.

 

[xxFrohawkxx]

VOTE: Mcfox The way you don't help seems kinda weird and your pretty evasive.

 

[xxFrohawkxx]

Rocketpsience are you going to believe a "Villainous IC"

Why even wagon right now? we have about 9 days to vote. And I think i know who's going to crack first.

*cough*Mcfox*cough* sorry throat problems.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Unvote

Vote: Swiss

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I feel that the point of RVS is to help begin a wagon to put real pressure on a person. If you don't wagon then you can't get out of RVS without an awkward transition. My vote can easily change if he's about to get hammered.

 

[Swiss]

Ryker, in all seriousness, a bandwagon isn't a good idea right now. You can try and rack up some votes on me and get me lynched, sure, but how does that help town?

RVS is for putting pressure on people and watching how they react NOT just getting a random person and trying to lynch them.

Voting is good, trying to band wagon a player isn't pro town.

 

[Swiss]

I feel that the point of RVS is to help begin a wagon to put real pressure on a person. If you don't wagon then you can't get out of RVS without an awkward transition. My vote can easily change if he's about to get hammered.

This is true, but I've seen games where scum quick hammered and have made it look accidental, scum can work together, best not to give them the opportunity. Imho.