Newbie to Lucas

[Y-L]

As a prospective Lucas player, what do I need to know? If someone could refer me to a Lucas guide or just give me the run-down, that would be great. Much appreciated.

 

[Inserio]

I'd say start by watching videos of those who are already amazing. That way you can see for yourself what is possible and start to incorporate the things you can manage bit by bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBG1njx3kLk is a great match with two fantastic Lucas players, @NeonApophis and Oracle. You can search for them on youtube and find quite a few matches that are very good. A couple others worth mentioning are Calabrel and HammerTime. Pink Fresh also has a unique play style while is a lot less technical than some of the ones mentioned above, but still effective.

As far as advanced techniques and how to perform them, there's already a great amount of data in this section. Some posts/articles I found useful are as follows:
Double Jump Canceling PK Freeze
PM 2.6b Frame and Hitbox Data (yeah, it might be a little outdated, but a lot is the same)
Options on the ledge
[Project M] Lucas Tutorial: DJC Aerials [video]
PSI Magnet Mechanics

 

[Y-L]

I'd say start by watching videos of those who are already amazing. That way you can see for yourself what is possible and start to incorporate the things you can manage bit by bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBG1njx3kLk is a great match with two fantastic Lucas players, @NeonApophis and Oracle. You can search for them on youtube and find quite a few matches that are very good. A couple others worth mentioning are Calabrel and HammerTime. Pink Fresh also has a unique play style while is a lot less technical than some of the ones mentioned above, but still effective.

As far as advanced techniques and how to perform them, there's already a great amount of data in this section. Some posts/articles I found useful are as follows:
Double Jump Canceling PK Freeze
PM 2.6b Frama and Hitbox Data (yeah, it might be a little outdated, but a lot is the same)
Options on the ledge
[Project M] Lucas Tutorial: DJC Aerials [video]
PSI Magnet Mechanics

So I know you kind of did it there, but what are all the AT's for Lucas? Could you give me a list of those and briefly explain each?

 

[Inserio]

I mean, besides what I listed above, it's just fundamentals of smash, I'd say. I'm sure some other people here could elaborate on other AT's though. The real advanced tech of Lucas, in my opinion, is his combo game. Work on making your followups last as long as possible. You should be able to stream people into combos that lead to death or at least high percentages (I usually use Bair or U-throw as a finisher, with an occasional charged Up smash or Fair) fairly often. It becomes tougher when facing opponents with great DI, but you can still frustrate a lot of people by just not letting them do anything.

When just starting out with a character, it's probably important to get a feel of what your gameplay should be like before you get into all the fancy tech skill, but your opinion may differ and that's fine.

Off the top of my head, here are some to look up...

DACUS (Dash Attack Canceled Up Smash): It can be brutal with his charged up smash. Basically you slide halfway across the stage very quickly and up smash. I find using a claw grip and pressing A instead of Z for the smash to be more reliable, but the claw is not for everyone. (Input is Direction>c-stick Down>control stick Up & A/Z ----- all within a very short timeframe; I think of it all as a sort of flick of all the fingers)

DJC (Double Jump Canceling): Mentioned/shown above. This cancels the remainder of your 2nd jump during its starting frames so that you fall down quicker and it can lead into many advantageous setups. PK Freeze is one thing to DJC, Fair and Uair are also very good too. (Input with tap jump on is Y>control stick Up>c-stick aerial. For PK Freeze, I use the claw grip as I find it more reliable than trying to use tap jump; however, if you're fast with your fingers you could theoretically do it without either—Input is Y>Y>Forward B). DJC PK Freeze is super important for setting people up for combos.

Also Lucas's magnet works similar to Fox's shine in that you can and definitely should jump out of it (wavedash out being usually a good choice). It can also really help you recover if you throw one out about every second or so. Just make sure you don't end up fast falling and also don't do them too fast, or else you'll be worse off than without.

90% of the time, midair dodge to tether recovery is a better option than his Up-B recovery. It's a lot less punishable and much faster, as in PM he is very vulnerable in PKT2. If you are facing the wrong direction to tether, just do a B-reversed magnet by pressing Down-B and sliding a quarter circle to the direction of the ledge as quickly as possible. PKT2 still travels a little bit more distance than tether, however. So if you know for sure you aren't going to reach the tether and you have decent Up-B aim, do PKT2 instead. Another recovery thing to watch out for is trying to tether under the ledge on some stages. Occasionally you'll tether too close to the ledge and end up instantly SDing. If this is the case, just be patient and use your dodge to space out from under before tethering.

Grabs are awesome. D-throw leads into all sorts of combos for non-fast fallers, and U-throw leads to death for most at ~130% depending on stage and fast fallers. B-throw can be a lethal alternative for some stages/fast fallers.

Offense Up has a hitbox when charged. It actually has a moment of invincibility too. If you're being combo'd and your opponent is almost on top of you, just press B to release the OU Burst (as I call it); it comes out faster than any other option you have. It's also a decent punish for if you decide to charge up during your new stock invincibility and the opponent is right there attacking you until it wears off. (If it lands, you keep the charge, too)


That's all for now. I kinda got into a bit more metagame than AT's I feel like, but it's basic stuff for Lucas.

 

[Y-L]

I mean, besides what I listed above, it's just fundamentals of smash, I'd say. I'm sure some other people here could elaborate on other AT's though. The real advanced tech of Lucas, in my opinion, is his combo game. Work on making your followups last as long as possible. You should be able to stream people into combos that lead to death or at least high percentages (I usually use Bair or U-throw as a finisher, with an occasional charged Up smash or Fair) fairly often. It becomes tougher when facing opponents with great DI, but you can still frustrate a lot of people by just not letting them do anything.

When just starting out with a character, it's probably important to get a feel of what your gameplay should be like before you get into all the fancy tech skill, but your opinion may differ and that's fine.

Off the top of my head, here are some to look up...

DACUS (Dash Attack Canceled Up Smash): It can be brutal with his charged up smash. Basically you slide halfway across the stage very quickly and up smash. I find using a claw grip and pressing A instead of Z for the smash to be more reliable, but the claw is not for everyone. (Input is Direction>c-stick Down>control stick Up & A/Z ----- all within a very short timeframe; I think of it all as a sort of flick of all the fingers)

DJC (Double Jump Canceling): Mentioned/shown above. This cancels the remainder of your 2nd jump during its starting frames so that you fall down quicker and it can lead into many advantageous setups. PK Freeze is one thing to DJC, Fair and Uair are also very good too. (Input with tap jump on is Y>control stick Up>c-stick aerial. For PK Freeze, I use the claw grip as I find it more reliable than trying to use tap jump; however, if you're fast with your fingers you could theoretically do it without either—Input is Y>Y>Forward B). DJC PK Freeze is super important for setting people up for combos.

Also Lucas's magnet works similar to Fox's shine in that you can and definitely should jump out of it (wavedash out being usually a good choice). It can also really help you recover if you throw one out about every second or so. Just make sure you don't end up fast falling and also don't do them too fast, or else you'll be worse off than without.

90% of the time, midair dodge to tether recovery is a better option than his Up-B recovery. It's a lot less punishable and much faster, as in PM he is very vulnerable in PKT2. If you are facing the wrong direction to tether, just do a B-reversed magnet by pressing Down-B and sliding a quarter circle to the direction of the ledge as quickly as possible. PKT2 still travels a little bit more distance than tether, however. So if you know for sure you aren't going to reach the tether and you have decent Up-B aim, do PKT2 instead. Another recovery thing to watch out for is trying to tether under the ledge on some stages. Occasionally you'll tether too close to the ledge and end up instantly SDing. If this is the case, just be patient and use your dodge to space out from under before tethering.

Grabs are awesome. D-throw leads into all sorts of combos for non-fast fallers, and U-throw leads to death for most at ~130% depending on stage and fast fallers. B-throw can be a lethal alternative for some stages/fast fallers.

Offense Up has a hitbox when charged. It actually has a moment of invincibility too. If you're being combo'd and your opponent is almost on top of you, just press B to release the OU Burst (as I call it); it comes out faster than any other option you have. It's also a decent punish for if you decide to charge up during your new stock invincibility and the opponent is right there attacking you until it wears off. (If it lands, you keep the charge, too)


That's all for now. I kinda got into a bit more metagame than AT's I feel like, but it's basic stuff for Lucas.

Very helpful information very much appreciated . Any good combos that you like to do?

 

[Inserio]

D-throw into Charged U-smash (and sometimes second U-smash depending on their DI and fast-falliness) at low% and D-throw into Bair at mid-high% is a favorite of mine, though you can extend the latter by adding a few DJC'd and L-canceled Uairs.

DJC PK Freeze into anything known to man. Specifically, spacing it till I'm close enough for a dash grab. Dash grab's hitboxes stay out longer (I'd like to say 3 times longer?) than regular grab (though it is more punishable if missed). This also leads into the above.

I dunno though. I normally just go off of a whim. Neon's combos are beautiful though. Check out some more here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ISPNXuhWbQ

 

[Y-L]

D-throw into Charged U-smash (and sometimes second U-smash depending on their DI and fast-falliness) at low% and D-throw into Bair at mid-high% is a favorite of mine, though you can extend the latter by adding a few DJC'd and L-canceled Uairs.

DJC PK Freeze into anything known to man. Specifically, spacing it till I'm close enough for a dash grab. Dash grab's hitboxes stay out longer (I'd like to say 3 times longer?) than regular grab (though it is more punishable if missed). This also leads into the above.

I dunno though. I normally just go off of a whim. Neon's combos are beautiful though. Check out some more here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ISPNXuhWbQ

I'm having trouble with a few things.

I've got DJC aerials down, but I can't seem to get the hang of the DJC PKF. I always do it too early like I'm doing an aerial and the PKF doesn't have enough time to come out before I hit the ground. When I wait longer after inputting the DJC, I jump too high before the PKF comes out.

Also with the magnet, when are some practical times to use that? I also find it hard to input a magnet out of a dash if you're even supposed to do that.

Thanks for all the help!

 

[Badge]

For DJC PKFs you have to wait a bit before double jumping. I'd suggest to start by DJing relatively high in your shorthop and then work your way down from there until you get a feeling of how low you can go to still have the projectile come out. Waiting between the DJ and SideB is unnecessary, just swiftly throw the PKF out after the DJ and focus your timing efforts on double jumping at the right time - as long as you don't visibly rise after the DJ, the timing of your PKF is sufficiently good.

For your magnet out of dash question: The short answer is that you have to either wait or jump beforse using magnet after dashing. This is the long answer:
Every character's "run" consists of two states: An inital dash and a continuous run. The dash is what you can initiate from a standing position and is able to transition into the run starting at a certain frame depending on the character. Lucas' dash takes 26 frames and transistions into run frames 12-17. Before this window Dash is interruptible only by jump, Up-Smash, Dash Attack, Dash Grab, shield+spotdodge/rolls, SideB, Turn, and, within the first 4 frames, F-Smash. During this window, you can also initiate Run and after it you can Dash again. If you keep the control stick tilted, Lucas' Run starts at frame 12 of the combined dash/run animation and is interruptible by crouch and DownB in addition to everything dash can be interrupted with except of Turn (it becomes the slower TurnRun) and ofc F-Smash. Notably, DownB can only be used during run.
This is why you have to either jump and use an aerial magnet or wait until the run animation to use it.
The above data is also the cause for stuff like dashdances (Turn can become a Dash in the opposite direction after 1 frame), foxtrots (Dashing repeatedly is often faster than running) and pivots (Turn, then do anything) and the reason why you have to jump- or crouch cancel out of dashes/runs for other attacks.

Magnet is relatively fast and very non-commital due to the jump cancel. As it sends backwards you can also retreat out of it and still combo off of hitconfirms. In addition to that the aerial version is the most adventagous attack on shield that I know of (due to no jump startup) and the grounded version is still great in that regard, so a hit on shield leads to great shield pressure. This combinations makes it a great attack to cover space your opponent may be in and be safe if you miss or get a good payoff if you hit anything. You should watch the match between Neon and Oracle that Inserio posted above, they make heavy use of magnet as a poke in neutral, option coverage during tech chases, shield pressure move, combo extender and more.

 

[Burnsy]

I'd like to say since it was linked and mentioned in Inserio's first post, the 2.6 frame data thread is barely outdated since almost nothing changed for Lucas the transition to 3.0, and those 2 or 3 small changes are stated in the 3.0 changelog. If its technical data you are looking for it is very good and very relevant.

 

[Y-L]

Question do you need to fast fall DJC aerials?

 

[Badge]

Depends on their height. Perfectly executed DJC aerials can land the frame after their hitbox comes out. In this case fastfalling will either do nothing or actually cancel your aerial without a hitbox. If you hit any higher, fastfalling leads to shorter air times and the higher you go, the greater the ff advantage and the easier the execution.
When you're aiming for the lowest aerials possible and if you are sufficiently consistent with them, you'll not want to fastfall, because all it does is increase the risk of doing something unwanted. When you're using DJCs to UAir-juggle an opponent at 2/3 of your fulljump height on the other hand, you'll definitly want to fastfall as soon as you hit in order to decrease airtime.

 

[Inserio]

Question do you need to fast fall DJC aerials?

L-canceling them is of much higher significance. That's something I just started trying to implement and it makes a world of difference when going for speed.

Though, like what 8adge said, if you're DJCing higher than ground level, it can be useful.

 

[Y-L]

L-canceling them is of much higher significance. That's something I just started trying to implement and it makes a world of difference when going for speed.

Though, like what 8adge said, if you're DJCing higher than ground level, it can be useful.

I think I will just continue to fast fall all of them. Doing a quick DJC aerial is only one input (analog up) added to the inputs of a SHFFL.

 

[Burnsy]

I wouldn't teach myself to FF all of his djc aerials indiscriminantly because it will make doing perfectly low ones incredibly difficult since you risk screwing yourself over and land before the hitbox comes out. I think its better to learn to control your DJ height and use FF only if its appropriate.

 

[Y-L]

My gameplay is already so much better thanks for the help guys.

So what's good to approach with aside from nair and djc pkf?

Also I'm still having trouble using the magnet combatively.

 

[Inserio]

You said earlier you were looking for combos. This one is by HammerTime is just ridiculous (if your opponent misses their techs).

 

[BamBoozzled]

Hey man hopefully i can help played lucas for 3 months basicly if u can get off a shorthop pk freeze and shorthop dair said nair u can pump out huge damage ESPECIALLY if u know how to tech chase u can mess some people up. Also 130 percent up grab insta k0, is recovery is broken use your magnet to control your self then quick air dodge into a tether recovery and we should be good. Also if u manage to charge up your b get a dair and they dont d-eye correctly u can upsmash for a easy stock