Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Plus, didn't Sakurai say the stages were made from scratch? ...Wait, he did~

"The amount of stages, music, and items included is greater than ever before–but I suppose that goes without saying. All the stages and items have been remade from scratch and vastly improved.

I could go on, but it might be easier for you to simply watch the Smash presentation from E3. See you next time!"

“Smash is Special” COMPLETE Translation

Sakurai’s FULL remarks on him returning to work on Smash, initial project plan and why the series is so ‘special’.

sourcegaming.info

I would've rather it was more ported in the case of stages, but that's not the route taken.

Oh, this should also be notable;

"However, I think that “Everyone is here!” is something that won’t be repeated. Anything is possible, of course, so I can’t rule anything out entirely, but I still think this won’t happen again.

For starters, bringing back every fighter drastically increases the cost of development. Merely attempting to do this requires a lot of time, personnel, and money. Even something that looks like a simple port has a huge number of manhours behind it. Moreover, in the case of Smash, we can’t simply create whatever we want. I have to receive approval from the original creators of the characters, and I need to reflect their feedback. If this feedback differs from the direction we’ve taken with a character in Smash, then it’s our job to reconcile this disparity no matter how much time or energy it takes. Contractual agreements and other legal issues can also make development exceedingly difficult. In reality, it was quite a challenge to bring every fighter back, and I barely made it work. Frankly, it almost didn’t happen."

 

[CannonStreak]

Plus, didn't Sakurai say the stages were made from scratch? ...Wait, he did~

"The amount of stages, music, and items included is greater than ever before–but I suppose that goes without saying. All the stages and items have been remade from scratch and vastly improved.

I could go on, but it might be easier for you to simply watch the Smash presentation from E3. See you next time!"

“Smash is Special” COMPLETE Translation

Sakurai’s FULL remarks on him returning to work on Smash, initial project plan and why the series is so ‘special’.

sourcegaming.info

I would've rather it was more ported in the case of stages, but that's not the route taken.

This is for every game, right? If that IS for every game, I do think it would take more time than some people, like some people here, may think.

It may seem like a copy and paste deal, but in reality, it is not.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

This is for every game, right? If that IS for every game, I do think it would take more time than some people, like some people here, may think.

It may seem like a copy and paste deal, but in reality, it is not.

It only says this about Ultimate when it comes to stages. It might not apply anywhere else. It might relate to the Stage Swap mechanic, or just how he wanted to do it, or something else. The second thing I cited(after you quoted me, I edited it in, heh) is that doing ported stuff is still vastly draining and difficult. There is no such thing as "easily done". Even Echoes, while easier than a regular clone, deals with similar kind of stuff.

Because Sakurai doesn't own specific characters etc. he still needs permission and to deal with any odd changes he would go for. That's the general gist of it. He's got creative control in some cases to quite a degree, but besides 3rd party, we know Pokemon is difficult to deal with(choosing who it is at one point was very easy, but beyond that, including costumes, it's more complicated). But yeah.

 

[CannonStreak]

It only says this about Ultimate when it comes to stages. It might not apply anywhere else. It might relate to the Stage Swap mechanic, or just how he wanted to do it, or something else. The second thing I cited(after you quoted me, I edited it in, heh) is that doing ported stuff is still vastly draining and difficult. There is no such thing as "easily done". Even Echoes, while easier than a regular clone, deals with similar kind of stuff.

Because Sakurai doesn't own specific characters etc. he still needs permission and to deal with any odd changes he would go for. That's the general gist of it. He's got creative control in some cases to quite a degree, but besides 3rd party, we know Pokemon is difficult to deal with(choosing who it is at one point was very easy, but beyond that, including costumes, it's more complicated). But yeah.

Makes sense, so perhaps the assumption was not true.

Either way, since Smash games are made once for every new system, it is not like items can be exactly copy and pasted to the next game, can they not?

Even if they were, they can't be a full copy and paste, for there is still work to be done to add them to the next game on the next system. I am not sure how many people may realize something like that.

Also, I miss the Fan item that was in 64 to Brawl.

 

[Arcanir]

Yeah, but Ultimate is diferent, a new game means that theres a risk of cut characters, which could be risky since of the big characters in the ult roster, while brawl had cuts most of them werent that important (except Mewtwo), Ultimate cuts will be dexit again, mark my words.

There are multiple reasons why that doesn't really track, but one of the big reasons is that dexit hit hard because of how unprecedented it was at that point. We were given little reason to expect it at the time as Pokemon has historically built up and retained its roster, and then when the news hit at that E3 before SwSh's release it came as a huge surprise. The fanbase thought the roster would just keep building, and while that may've not been feasible, it's not something that was really expected and thus hit hard for many.

Smash has historically not tried to retain its roster past Melee as Brawl had cuts and 4 had cuts, and on top of that Sakurai himself has warned the fanbase, multiple times in fact, that he thinks that 'Everyone is Here' is something that can't be repeated. He said it as early as Ultimate's main reveal, he said it again during the DLC cycle, and even expressed similar doubts as recently as last year. If the roster is cut down, it'd follow the trend that we previously saw with Brawl and 4, and even if that wasn't the case we had proper warning to expect and prepare ourselves if cuts do happen. People may be upset, but the situation is nowhere close to dexit's in its situation due to the franchise's history and how it's been handled.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Also, I miss the Fan item that was in 64 to Brawl.

Fan my beloved

 

[CannonStreak]

On the topic of Everyone is Here happening a second time...

3rd party licensing nightmare aside, try doing all that after something like 150 characters have been made playable in Smash Bros.! Well, maybe a bit less than that, but you know what I mean.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Fan really should return. It's my core item when playing Smash 64. To the point if somebody else gets it, I suddenly go into "Gamer Mode", steal it, and dominant. Don't mess with my item~

...No other game works the same way.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

On the topic of Everyone is Here happening a second time...

3rd party licensing nightmare aside, try doing all that after something like 150 characters have been made playable in Smash Bros.! Well, maybe a bit less than that, but you know what I mean.

That is indeed another point.

Smash Ultimate may not have the largest roster in the fighting game genre, but games with larger rosters either get away with it by padding the roster with clones, having less complex movesets or maybe even both.

Trying to tackle a game like Smash with 100+ characters all while keeping everything relatively balanced sounds insane.

 

[CannonStreak]

That is indeed another point.

Smash Ultimate may not have the largest roster in the fighting game genre, but games with larger rosters either get away with it by padding the roster with clones, having less complex movesets or maybe even both.

Trying to tackle a game like Smash with 100+ characters all while keeping everything relatively balanced sounds insane.

No kidding!

And it does not help that we are already somewhere close to 100 playable characters in the series already. Not only would it be insane, but if other things like third party licensing were not enough, over 100 characters would be a nightmare, and it would be worse when you do include things like third party issues.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Oh, this should also be notable;

"However, I think that “Everyone is here!” is something that won’t be repeated. Anything is possible, of course, so I can’t rule anything out entirely, but I still think this won’t happen again."

"However, I think that “Everyone is here!” is something that won’t be repeated. Anything is possible, of course, so I can’t rule anything out entirely, but I still think this won’t happen again."

It's amazing what you can accomplish by just changing which cherries to pick.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

"However, I think that “Everyone is here!” is something that won’t be repeated. Anything is possible, of course, so I can’t rule anything out entirely, but I still think this won’t happen again."

It's amazing what you can accomplish by just changing which cherries to pick.

"However, I think that “Everyone is here!” is something that won’t be repeated. Anything is possible, of course, so I can’t rule anything out entirely, but I still think this won’t happen again."

It truly is

 

[CannonStreak]

One other thing; as something along the lines in terms of what The Stoopid Unikorn said, the more characters a Smash game (or any fighting game has), especially over 100 characters, the more likely there will be less complex movements and more clones. I can see those and some other things go down in quality with more characters.

Think about it, IF Everyone is Here happened again and there was a drop in quality, from less complex movement for fighters to more clones, would you really want "Everyone is Here" again?

 

[Guynamednelson]

Trying to tackle a game like Smash with 100+ characters all while keeping everything relatively balanced sounds insane.

On that front, PMEX Remix doesn't really have balance issues (Everyone who's considered S or A tier in Project+ is still considered that there), but it does make sacrifices elsewhere: You're recommended to only play the game with no items, and only on competitive stages. Breaking those rules could result in:

• New fighters freezing into a T-pose if they pick up an item or touch water (Despite the latter, the mod still adds stages with water)
• The game outright crashing
• Realizing they only reskinned three of the ATs that've become playable characters (Waluigi, Shadow, Knuckle Joe)

And they also had to get rid of Kirby's copy abilities because not only did many of the new characters not have them, but also Kirby could crash the game with them.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

On that front, PMEX Remix doesn't really have balance issues (Everyone who's considered S or A tier in Project+ is still considered that there), but it does make sacrifices elsewhere: You're recommended to only play the game with no items, and only on competitive stages. Breaking those rules could result in:

• New fighters freezing into a T-pose if they pick up an item or touch water (Despite the latter, the mod still adds stages with water)
• The game outright crashing
• Realizing they only reskinned three of the ATs that've become playable characters (Waluigi, Shadow, Knuckle Joe)

And they also had to get rid of Kirby's copy abilities because not only did many of the new characters not have them, but also Kirby could crash the game with them.

PMEX Remix shouldn't really count because it's basically a massive modpack. That's nowhere near the kind of work an actually new Smash game would do.

With that said, Kirby losing his Copy Ability (or it being redesigned around his own existing abilities from his games like getting Fire for Mario or Archer for Link, as examples) could be a possible outcome if there's enough characters because every time they make a new character, they have to make a new Neutral B for Kirby. It's a lot of work.

 

[ScrubReborn]

Also, I miss the Fan item that was in 64 to Brawl.

Same bro, same. Why'd they ever get rid of it?

We need these back too. Especially the whiteboyCracker Launcher

 

[CannonStreak]

Same bro, same. Why'd they ever get rid of it?

We need these back too.

I loved the Cracker Launcher, and I especially loved the Red Shell! I agree we need those back.

If we can have the Blue Shell, why not the Red Shell, too?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

THE CRACKER LAUNCHER

I MISS IT

BRING IT BACK

 

[HyperSomari64]

New gameplay mechanics i can think of:
. Air Dashes like Multiversus
. Smash Aerials like NASB
. Smash Dashes like NASB
. Roman Cancels like NASB and Guilty Gear
. Assists like Fraymakers
. Team Switching like MvC
. Hyper Jumps? Like right before you touch the ground if you press the jump button you can jump higher.
. Some mechanic like the infinite stones from MvC:I


I can't think of many else outside of those right now, if they make a new mechanic they have to make sure it doesnt break the game, they also dont want to alienate the fanbase too much most likely.

I got more ideas for you:

• Three-Level Supers like in MvC and PSASBR
• Aerial Shield
• Aerial Grabs like in the Project PS mod for Super Smash Flash 2

 

[Guynamednelson]

That's nowhere near the kind of work an actually new Smash game would do.

Sure, but making a mod with that much content for a game that wasn't supposed to be modded in the first place isn't exactly easy.

...and I also forgot to mention there are also characters with incomplete Final Smashes. A lot of them just T-pose while doing Mario Finale, even the SSBU backports.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Sure, but making a mod with that much content for a game that wasn't supposed to be modded in the first place isn't exactly easy.

...and I also forgot to mention there are also characters with incomplete Final Smashes. A lot of them just T-pose while doing Mario Finale, even the SSBU backports.

Yeah, but there's also a difference between a mod and a full on game; deadlines.

PMEX Remix devs can typically follow a "it'll be ready when it's done" thing because stuff like this is typically non-profit stuff done on people's free time rather than an actual living with jobs at stake, so they're free to let things simmer.

A game in the state PMEX Remix is in would be unacceptable for an actual Smash game and they would need to do everything currently in that modpack as well as anything missing under far less time than the modders spend compiling everything into it and testing it in the first place, which is only possible because an actual Smash game would have more staff.

 

[Chuderz]

...why wouldn't it? All its fighters are not direct copypastes of Smash 4 fighters even if it was directly built off of Smash 4 (they had up to 10,000 changes according to the E3 2018 Direct), and they had to remodel more stages than there were new stages added in Smash 4 total.

I don't see how that wouldn't be a standard Smash budget though. Ultimate likely is the biggest budget Smash game since its the latest and Smash 6 will be no different in that regard.

I legitimately have no idea how this stuff works at the foundational level of coding. My intuition tells me that basing your game off Smash 4 means you get to at least get a head-start on the work you need to do going into Ultimate. So are you saying that the Smash 4 roster has to be redone entirely from scratch and nothing would/could be salvaged from their existing representations in Smash 4 other than their finished moveset concepts? If so I do wonder what causes this because I don't understand at all why that is.

This would make L-canceling a lot more approachable and I think I would actually really like this implementation of it. Bring back wavedashing too, but also give it an official name and dedicated set of animations; or at the very least give some alternative movement option in its stead. There's a reason you can wavedash in most non-Smash platform fighters (with some of them explicitly advertising it as a feature).

Thanks! I'm glad you liked the idea. Of course bring Wavedashing back. Honestly I'd love for the option to turn Melee's mechanics on it an expanded upon Advanced Settings menu. Edge-Cancelling, Ledge-Dashing, Ledge-Hogging, Amsah-Teching and so on. So long as you could turn them on or off I don't understand what Nintendo's problem would legitimately be at that point other than their usual annoying insecurities as a company over control of gameplay.

Try Smash Ultimate HDR if you want those Melee mechanics in Ultimate though. It's an amazing mod.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

(they had up to 10,000 changes according to the E3 2018 Direct)

And the sole reason such a high number of changes was even possible was because using Smash 4 as a base was an absolutely massive time save for developing the game. Less time making new assets = more time messing with existing ones.

In terms of actually balancing the gameplay, the devs absolutely did more work than ever. But for everything else, reusing assets was a shortcut to focus more on EVERYONE IS HERE!

 

[CannonStreak]

Speaking of reusing assets, didn't they have to not do that for cut characters like Pichu and Young Link from Melee and had to remake them from scratch, something like that?

I ask because aside from Dr. Mario, in terms of cut characters from Melee at least, it was said that the data from Melee could not work in terms of porting them over from Melee to Smash 4. That, if I recall correctly, is why Mewtwo, and by extension, Roy, had to be reworked from the ground up as DLC for Smash 4.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Speaking of reusing assets, didn't they have to not do that for cut characters like Pichu and Young Link from Melee and had to remake them from scratch, something like that?

I ask because aside from Dr. Mario, in terms of cut characters from Melee at least, it was said that the data from Melee could not work in terms of porting them over from Melee to Smash 4. That, if I recall correctly, is why Mewtwo, and by extension, Roy, had to be reworked from the ground up as DLC for Smash 4.

Yep. Pichu was retooled from Pikachu, and Young Link was retooled from Toon Link(though possibly some of regular Link too). So a reverse for the latter, as it came full circle.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

"The amount of stages, music, and items included is greater than ever before–but I suppose that goes without saying. All the stages and items have been remade from scratch and vastly improved.

No wonder Orbital Gate Assault did not make it's return.

Speaking of reusing assets, didn't they have to not do that for cut characters like Pichu and Young Link from Melee and had to remake them from scratch, something like that?

I ask because aside from Dr. Mario, in terms of cut characters from Melee at least, it was said that the data from Melee could not work in terms of porting them over from Melee to Smash 4. That, if I recall correctly, is why Mewtwo, and by extension, Roy, had to be reworked from the ground up as DLC for Smash 4.

Characters were stated to be rebuilt from scratch in SSB4 from my memory. It's assumed that this wasn't quite the case for SSBU, but even so there's a good chunk of veterans that were probably still built from scratch anyway.

• Touch Up:
  • 
• Overhaul:
  • 
• Entirely New Character:
  • 

And that's all on top of the usual re-balancing for the change in game play.

 

[CannonStreak]

Yep. Pichu was retooled from Pikachu, and Young Link was retooled from Toon Link(though possibly some of regular Link too). So a reverse for the latter, as it came full circle.

I thought so. Thanks for explaining.

My only worry is that if other characters are cut in the next and future games, they might have to be reworked from the ground up like Pichu and Young Link.

But hey, that is a minor concern to the point of not being a big deal. I can live with that!

 

[osby]

I'll agree that casual players don't care about cuts all that much and can still be enticed to buy a new Smash sequel with enough meaningful additions.

But you can't convince me that stage selection, gameplay tweaks and stadium modes means more to the average player than the character roster itself.

 

[CannonStreak]

Characters were stated to be rebuilt from scratch in SSB4 from my memory. It's assumed that this wasn't quite the case for SSBU, but even so there's a good chunk of veterans that were probably still built from scratch anyway.

• Touch Up:
  • 
• Overhaul:
  • 
• Entirely New Character:
  • 

And that's all on top of the usual re-balancing for the change in game play.

Well, I was talking about previously cut characters.

Still, what you said about the veterans makes sense. I mean, Brawl and Smash 4 were, and still are kind of different from each other. I do wonder if that will make any veterans easier to cut if they have to do them from scratch again, which may be likely.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So... Honest question.

Do you think Terry's inclusion in Smash and his positive reception led to to revival of the Fatal Fury franchise? For those who aren't aware, Fatal Fury is getting a new game after 20 years. It's going to be called Fatal Fury: City of the Wolves.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

More modes would probably get me more excited about a deluxe edition than new fighters would. If Ultimate had Smash Run where you can interact with other players it would probably make Ultimate my all time favorite game.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

No wonder Orbital Gate Assault did not make it's return.

It was pretty much doomed thanks to Stage Swap too. That also wasn't really plausible with many stages, including Pac-Maze(that also had a gimmick that just doesn't work with the Switch. That said, the gimmick can go anyway. It was neat at the time, but it's not that important compared to the location being used).

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

So... Honest question.

Do you think Terry's inclusion in Smash and his positive reception led to to revival of the Fatal Fury franchise? For those who aren't aware, Fatal Fury is getting a new game after 20 years. It's going to be called Fatal Fury: City of the Wolves.

It may have helped, but I would say it also had to do with the fighting game genre's growth as a whole, combined with the success of King of Fighters XV, which in turn was helped by KoF's notoriety and the fact that it didn't look super dated compared to current industry standards. KoF XIV can look kinda ugly, and IIRC it was 10x worse at (EDIT: and especially before) launch.

It was pretty much doomed thanks to Stage Swap too.

I think you could have made it work considering stages like 3D Land were added. The main concern would be the brief moments where there's no terrain at all. Stage Morph triggering then would kill everyone, which would admittedly be very funny. If nothing else, you could pretty easily solve it by either making the Arwings swoop in faster after a missile's destruction, or adding a safety net at the bottom of the screen should Stage Morph strike while they're still en route.

EDIT: Still, it is not worth the two years of dev time.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

After hearing from the rumors about the Switch 2, do you think Sakurai will make a pseudo sequel/spinoff of Smash that isn't Smash Kart?

 

[DarthEnderX]

Think about it, IF Everyone is Here happened again and there was a drop in quality, from less complex movement for fighters to more clones, would you really want "Everyone is Here" again?

After hearing from the rumors about the Switch 2, do you think Sakurai will make a pseudo sequel/spinoff of Smash that isn't Smash Kart?

No.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think you could have made it work considering stages like 3D Land were added. The main concern would be the brief moments where there's no terrain at all. Stage Morph triggering then would kill everyone, which would admittedly be very funny. If nothing else, you could pretty easily solve it by either making the Arwings swoop in faster after a missile's destruction, or adding a safety net at the bottom of the screen should Stage Morph strike while they're still en route.

EDIT: Still, it is not worth the two years of dev time.

Maybe, but it could also relate to how many lasers are onscreen at once on average. It has a loooooooot happening. It's also possible it was just a low priority stage and was hard to remake purely on its own. That or they thought the gimmick just isn't very plausible with Stage Morph. More than one cut stage was a moving one(or had really awkward stuff...).

Either way, I'd rather Stage Morph just applied to certain ones and that was it. Sure, it might suck, but at least you can keep more stages~

 

[Ivander]

After hearing from the rumors about the Switch 2, do you think Sakurai will make a pseudo sequel/spinoff of Smash that isn't Smash Kart?

Super Bash Sisters Not really, and if another non-Smash Bros Nintendo crossover happens, Sakurai will probably have little to no input regarding it.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Maybe, but it could also relate to how many lasers are onscreen at once on average. It has a loooooooot happening. It's also possible it was just a low priority stage and was hard to remake purely on its own. That or they thought the gimmick just isn't very plausible with Stage Morph. More than one cut stage was a moving one(or had really awkward stuff...).

Either way, I'd rather Stage Morph just applied to certain ones and that was it. Sure, it might suck, but at least you can keep more stages~

Jungle Hijinxs return but will not be compatible with Stage Morph :D

 

[CannonStreak]

View attachment 388610
No.

At the likely cost of quality?

You can't ignore the bad things that are possible just so you can get what you want, you know.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Jungle Hijinxs return but will not be compatible with Stage Morph :D

I'm good with that. It's a really fun stage too. I was sad to see it go.

Frankly, I'd rather have them all back(or at least maybe some merged if they're near identical, but have some good inbetween changes. Like when I spoke of Sector Z and Corneria being combined).