Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

A lot of people say that kirby is very beginner friendly, he really isnt. all of his specials come with absurd risks for newcomers

a beginner friendly up special, one of few that goes down, a side b that damages yourself the more you hold it, a down b that can kill you if you use it wrong and so on. his neutral B is hoenslty fine.

beyond the speciasl though he comes with multihits in his aerials, something I would avoid for beginners to be honest.

Plus the monstrous amount of work for kirbys neutral special, i think it would be better if his copy ability worked like it does in the kirby games, it just gives kirby the closest copy ability to that character, so you can make like 10.

yeah kirbys been around for a long time

but outside of 64 he sucks, and no one really plays him except casuals how are just starting and are attracted to more popopualr comfy cahracters, like mario, yoshi, peach, kirby, pikachu and so on.


hes one of 3 charactersI beleive need a total overhaul.

Kirby, sonic, ganondorf,

there are others like samus, mario and marth i would give a good amount of changes too but their current kits are fine if a bit unispired, and play pretty unique.

and yeah sonics is also unqiue, but its unqiue in a really bad way were his whole desing is, the character who times people out by running away and gaining percent leads.

I'd say he really only needs some touch-up on his specials more than anything else.

The rest of his moveset is pretty damn good aside from having low range so he just needs better ways to close the gap.

A lot of characters would kill to have a down tilt half as good as his, for example.

 

[Will]

You need one of two things to be good with Kirby in a competitive setting:

1. Years of legacy knowledge to properly execute Kirby’s combos & abuse his disjointed hit/hurtboxes
2. haha kirbycide

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think this is the first time I've heard anyone say Marth's moveset needed to be changed.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I think this is the first time I've heard anyone say Marth's moveset needed to be changed.

Yeah. All he needs is for his tippers to be more forgiving, not a full rework.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

Though I'm not the person who mentioned it, I think you probably could fundamentally rework Marth if you wanted to - an idea I've mentioned a few times before now is having his specials "summon" different allies from Shadow Dragon to perform their own attacks (most likely including Caeda and Tiki, maybe also Navarre and Minerva?) while leaving him actionable shortly after calling them in, allowing him to act as a sort of "strategic lord" and represent the series' mechanics and his own role in a fresh way.

That said, I'm personally not against him keeping his current moveset, seems as it's functional, fun, and has a high skill ceiling and interesting mechanics to make him overall fun to play as and against.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

A lot of people say that kirby is very beginner friendly, he really isnt. all of his specials come with absurd risks for newcomers

a beginner friendly up special, one of few that goes down, a side b that damages yourself the more you hold it, a down b that can kill you if you use it wrong and so on. his neutral B is hoenslty fine.

beyond the speciasl though he comes with multihits in his aerials, something I would avoid for beginners to be honest.

Plus the monstrous amount of work for kirbys neutral special, i think it would be better if his copy ability worked like it does in the kirby games, it just gives kirby the closest copy ability to that character, so you can make like 10.

yeah kirbys been around for a long time

but outside of 64 he sucks, and no one really plays him except casuals how are just starting and are attracted to more popopualr comfy cahracters, like mario, yoshi, peach, kirby, pikachu and so on.

I disagree:

• Final Cutter also going down is kind of an odd decision from the perspective of teaching players how to recover, but it has more offensive utility than the vast majority of other up specials, and in casual play it's downright spammable, so there's a give and take there. Kirby in particular also gets away with it because he has so many jumps (and in my experience they forget to use up specials to recover anyway).
• Hammer Flip hurting you only happens at full charge, and you get to run around with a death threat that your low skilled opponents won't quite know how to handle, and are somewhat likely to just run into.
• Stone is the most broken special move in casual play. Yeah, you can SD if you use it off stage and don't cancel it fast enough, but casual players aren't so dumb as to not pick up that they aren't supposed to use it off stage after the first time they SD. After that, the move allows you to pummel opponents with an invincible assault that your opponents have no idea how to deal with since they don't know you can be grabbed out of it, and their timing isn't great.

All in all Kirby's special moves are great when the bar for skill is on the floor. The main problem I have with them is that they're only good when the bar for skill is on the floor. Final Cutter is the only one that doesn't have niche applications if they have any at all.

As for multi-hits...I don't see the problem with them. They might be a little inconsistent depending on the attack, but you generally don't have a problem with that, and they provide a long lasting threat bubble that casuals can make good use of. The only thing about Kirby's aerial attacks that I think would be a bit tricky for them is the spike on Kirby's down air, but that doesn't really matter at skill levels where edge guarding doesn't exist.

Kirby getting preset copy abilities from characters would be better for balancing and less work to develop, but since the higher effort route exists and is the main draw of the character nowadays, you really can't get rid of it. You could combine the two ideas though. Balance his normals around his base special moves, and use copy abilities to change his normals so that they don't make him broken when he uses other characters neutral specials. It's more work, but theoretically, it should make balancing easier.

 

[smashkirby]

Hey, all. So I've been wondering a couple of things regarding Smash's future.

For one thing, who here expects the next Smash to pull a Melee and be announced at the new console's unveiling? Like, that idea's been in my mind for some time now, ngl.

Also, ever since the announcement of the June Direct, I've been wondering... if Smash 64 gets announced to come to NSO via said Direct, do you all think Sakurai and the Smash dev team might take it upon themselves to use the opportunity to add stuff that he wanted to add in the OG N64 game, but couldn't (Bowser, Mewtwo, King Dedede, Marth, Peppy, Slippy, Clefairy, the Parasol item, Poison Mushroom, etc.)?

 

[Perkilator]

Also, ever since the announcement of the June Direct, I've been wondering... if Smash 64 gets announced to come to NSO via said Direct, do you all think Sakurai and the Smash dev team might take it upon themselves to use the opportunity to add stuff that he wanted to add in the OG N64 game, but couldn't (Bowser, Mewtwo, King Dedede, Marth, Peppy, Slippy, Clefairy, the Parasol item, Poison Mushroom, etc.)?

Nah, they probably won’t go through that much effort for an NSO port.

 

[Guynamednelson]

if Smash 64 gets announced to come to NSO via said Direct, do you all think Sakurai and the Smash dev team might take it upon themselves to use the opportunity to add stuff that he wanted to add in the OG N64 game, but couldn't (Bowser, Mewtwo, King Dedede, Marth, Peppy, Slippy, Clefairy, the Parasol item, Poison Mushroom, etc.)?

Why would it? No ROM on NSO is different from what was originally sold in stores except for seizure-inducing effects being toned down, and that's easier than several new fighters and items.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

We'd be lucky to get the port.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Yeah that’s an arpg

Then River City Ransom is an ARPG.

You run around an open world town, getting in real-time brawls with packs of thugs, taking their money, leveling up, visiting shops to by gear and items.

Though I'm not the person who mentioned it, I think you probably could fundamentally rework Marth if you wanted to

If a FE character was going to get a rework, it should be Chrom. And then Lucina should be reworked to be Chrom's Echo.

That way, we'd have 2 Marths and 2 Chroms, instead of 4 Marths.

Also, ever since the announcement of the June Direct, I've been wondering... if Smash 64 gets announced to come to NSO via said Direct, do you all think Sakurai and the Smash dev team might take it upon themselves to use the opportunity to add stuff that he wanted to add in the OG N64 game, but couldn't (Bowser, Mewtwo, King Dedede, Marth, Peppy, Slippy, Clefairy, the Parasol item, Poison Mushroom, etc.)?

No. NSO doesn't mod games. It just emulates them.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Calling the older Yakuza games RPG's is technically correct but you shouldnt just say it

 

[osby]

Though I'm not the person who mentioned it, I think you probably could fundamentally rework Marth if you wanted to - an idea I've mentioned a few times before now is having his specials "summon" different allies from Shadow Dragon to perform their own attacks (most likely including Caeda and Tiki, maybe also Navarre and Minerva?) while leaving him actionable shortly after calling them in, allowing him to act as a sort of "strategic lord" and represent the series' mechanics and his own role in a fresh way.

That said, I'm personally not against him keeping his current moveset, seems as it's functional, fun, and has a high skill ceiling and interesting mechanics to make him overall fun to play as and against.

Personally, I'm not a fan of summon movesets unless said character is actually a summoner. I think it's better when a fighter's own abilities stand on their own. There are better ways to represent strategic gameplay other than turning RPG party members into Pokemon.

 

[TheQuester]

Kind of a random take, but i think Plant is more likely to return than most people think, like i think he's more likely out than back, don't get me wrong, but Sakurai loves it's weird characters.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

No offense to anyone, but fan movesets always end up in one of these three categories:
-"Press B to select a weapon!"
-every other move summons a different character
-every single move references a different power-up

Each of these ideas would be fun, but for a single character that makes it their thing. Start overflowing the roster with this kind of stuff and everyone plays the same. Having weapons to choose from isn't exactly a rare thing in videogames.

Even if they don't represent 100% of everything they can do in their games, I much prefer having DK as the angry gorilla guy, Marth as the tipper guy, Sonic as the speedy guy, Samus as the long-range girl, Sheik as the ninja, etc...
Not that they can't (or shouldn't in Sonic's case) change some stuff, but I believe the more economical approach to movesets that official Smash has actually benefits the characters in the long run, they stand out more in relation to each other.

 

[SharkLord]

A lot of people say that kirby is very beginner friendly, he really isnt. all of his specials come with absurd risks for newcomers

a beginner friendly up special, one of few that goes down, a side b that damages yourself the more you hold it, a down b that can kill you if you use it wrong and so on. his neutral B is hoenslty fine.

beyond the speciasl though he comes with multihits in his aerials, something I would avoid for beginners to be honest.

Plus the monstrous amount of work for kirbys neutral special, i think it would be better if his copy ability worked like it does in the kirby games, it just gives kirby the closest copy ability to that character, so you can make like 10.

yeah kirbys been around for a long time

but outside of 64 he sucks, and no one really plays him except casuals how are just starting and are attracted to more popopualr comfy cahracters, like mario, yoshi, peach, kirby, pikachu and so on.


hes one of 3 charactersI beleive need a total overhaul.

Kirby, sonic, ganondorf,

there are others like samus, mario and marth i would give a good amount of changes too but their current kits are fine if a bit unispired, and play pretty unique.

and yeah sonics is also unqiue, but its unqiue in a really bad way were his whole desing is, the character who times people out by running away and gaining percent leads.

Eh, I think they're easy enough to understand
-Grab that lets you steal the other guy's special
-Big charge attack
-Quick upwards attack with a free projectile
-Jump>Jump>Jump>Jump>Down B from above

Yeah, it can screw you over if you don't use it right, but I think they're for the most part pretty simple. Hell, Mario's specials were pretty tricky for me to understand as a kid, but Kirby's specials more or less did what you expected them to.

Not sure how I feel about trading Kirby's direct copies for random abilities. I dunno, it's certainly less work, but I think there's a charm to the Smash-unique copy hats. Also I feel like if we set up a chart for every single special and they're corresponding abilities we'd probably overcentralize on Fire or Sword or something, I dunno

No offense to anyone, but fan movesets always end up in one of these three categories:
-"Press B to select a weapon!"
-every other move summons a different character
-every single move references a different power-up

Each of these ideas would be fun, but for a single character that makes it their thing. Start overflowing the roster with this kind of stuff and everyone plays the same. Having weapons to choose from isn't exactly a rare thing in videogames.

Even if they don't represent 100% of everything they can do in their games, I much prefer having DK as the angry gorilla guy, Marth as the tipper guy, Sonic as the speedy guy, Samus as the long-range girl, Sheik as the ninja, etc...
Not that they can't (or shouldn't in Sonic's case) change some stuff, but I believe the more economical approach to movesets that official Smash has actually benefits the characters in the long run, they stand out more in relation to each other.

Oh yeah, fanmade movesets often try a little too hard to be a compilation of references first and a coherent kit second. I do believe some fighters like DK or Samus could get a touchup based on newer material, but a lot of the fanmade movesets tend to have some sort of clunky gimmick or cram in a different reference every attack. The references are cool and all, but I honestly prefer simpler movesets that weren't trying to be "literally the entire game but in Smash Bros"

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

No offense to anyone, but fan movesets always end up in one of these three categories:
-"Press B to select a weapon!"
-every other move summons a different character
-every single move references a different power-up

Each of these ideas would be fun, but for a single character that makes it their thing. Start overflowing the roster with this kind of stuff and everyone plays the same. Having weapons to choose from isn't exactly a rare thing in videogames.

Even if they don't represent 100% of everything they can do in their games, I much prefer having DK as the angry gorilla guy, Marth as the tipper guy, Sonic as the speedy guy, Samus as the long-range girl, Sheik as the ninja, etc...
Not that they can't (or shouldn't in Sonic's case) change some stuff, but I believe the more economical approach to movesets that official Smash has actually benefits the characters in the long run, they stand out more in relation to each other.

Hard agreed on that. Sometimes, making **** up that still fits the vibe of a character can be really good and much better than just "here is reference". Joker is a great example because pretty much everything that isn't his specials is entirely original to Smash yet fits him incredibly well. I don't think it'd look this cool if every move was just "here is a Persona, here is a different Persona"

The only characters who should have every single move be a reference are characters whose games entirely revolve around combat since they're likely to have enough material for a full moveset that is also coherent. The FGC quartet is a perfect example of this and even then, Sakurai had to make up an up air for Terry and some of Kazuya's aerials are grounded moves in Tekken which are made into aerials to fill gaps, showing that even they need creative liberties.

Bayonetta is also another great one. Heck, in Bayonetta's case, they made a full moveset out of just the guns and a bit of Madama Butterfly in the right places when she has dozens of different weapon options across the series, further showing you don't need everything for a moveset to feel right.

G&W gets away with being only references since while every move does reference a Game & Watch game, a lot of them are done in creative ways that aren't 1:1 with the actual games themselves. The Judge Side B never kills or summons apples in the Judge game, for example

 

[Gengar84]

No offense to anyone, but fan movesets always end up in one of these three categories:
-"Press B to select a weapon!"
-every other move summons a different character
-every single move references a different power-up

Each of these ideas would be fun, but for a single character that makes it their thing. Start overflowing the roster with this kind of stuff and everyone plays the same. Having weapons to choose from isn't exactly a rare thing in videogames.

Even if they don't represent 100% of everything they can do in their games, I much prefer having DK as the angry gorilla guy, Marth as the tipper guy, Sonic as the speedy guy, Samus as the long-range girl, Sheik as the ninja, etc...
Not that they can't (or shouldn't in Sonic's case) change some stuff, but I believe the more economical approach to movesets that official Smash has actually benefits the characters in the long run, they stand out more in relation to each other.

I’ll agree with that on the whole. I actually really like the idea of summoner type characters where it makes sense but I wouldn’t try to force the gimmick on a character where it doesn’t really fit as a general rule.

The biggest stretch for the idea I personally want to see is Dixie Kong with a moveset based around the Animal Buddies. I know they aren’t exclusively a Dixie thing but they are a huge part of the fun of the series and Dixie is a part of that. The buddies aren’t yet represented in Smash beyond spirits and trophies and I think this could be a fun way to help with that. Plus, I just think the idea could lead to a really fun and unique moveset.

Others that are a little more obvious that I want to see are:

• Yuna or Garnet from Final Fantasy as a summoner class. Basically how Yuna fights in Dissidia. They’re also both white mages so you could incorporate that as well
• Crono from Chrono Trigger with a set based around dual techs, which is a core mechanic from the series that makes it stand out
• Sarah Kerrigan from StarCraft who summons Zerg units as a reference to the RTS mechanics
• H’aanit from Octopath Traveller as a beast tamer (though just focusing exclusively on her cat companion, Linde works too. That would turn her into more of a puppet fighter than a summoner)
• Jessie and James from Pokemon who summon various Pokemon from their team for specials. Like Jessie can summon Wobuffet as a counter and James could summon Victreebell to trap opponents. They’d both share Meowth for some moves and other basic attacks could use gadgets from the show.

 

[Garteam]

I can get why people want it for the sake of shaping up the formula, but I think aerial smash attacks is a bad idea for a new mechanic.

That's an additional 4 to 5 animations per character, which doesn't sound like a lot but adds up quickly when extrapolated across 30 to 60 veterans. Robin gets around this issue by having the same animations for both his normal and smash aerials, but using a model swap and electric effects to denote which attack using. However, his animations were designed with this mechanic in mind. That's not the case for the rest of the roster. There's also the issue of how to handle certain characters from a balancing perspective like Sheik, who is balanced around the idea of struggling to KO with aerials.

This is also a personal issue, but I think the next Smash could stand to be slightly less focused on aerial combat than Ultimate. Most of the cast already wants to be in the air for a significant portion of both their neutral and advantage states. A lot of the characters that don't focus on being in the air are only that way because they have centralizing grounded options that generally make them unfun to play against, like Steve, Sonic, and Snake.

Maybe it could work in a pseudo-reboot with a roster of 40 to 50 characters, but there are a lot of issues I have with that concept generally.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

I wouldn't really like Dixie having the Animal Buddies in her moveset. She's more than capable of doing things on her own and she has enough canon capabilities to fill up a moveset. Plus I think that exploring her ponytail as a means to float in the air, turbine, fifht limb, etc. is both more interesting and more tied to her identity.

On the other hand Crono is the one character for who I think summoning companions would make sense. He's a little bland on his own, and Chrono Trigger's combat system is all about team attacks. But the way I Imagine him probably isn't doable...

 

[Gengar84]

I wouldn't really like Dixie having the Animal Buddies in her moveset. She's more than capable of doing things on her own and she has enough canon capabilities to fill up a moveset. Plus I think that exploring her ponytail as a means to float in the air, turbine, fifht limb, etc. is both more interesting and more tied to her identity.

On the other hand Crono is the one character for who I think summoning companions would make sense. He's a little bland on his own, and Chrono Trigger's combat system is all about team attacks. But the way I Imagine him probably isn't doable...

That’s fair, I think I’m in the minority in that opinion anyways. I think there’s plenty of moveset space to give Dixie all of her canon abilities while still having room for the buddies as specials. They’d only really take up four total moves of her whole set so she has everything else left over for things like her hair, bubble gum gun, guitar, or anything else.

Here’s a basic moveset idea I thought up for Dixie that I think could be a ton of fun. Of course this isn’t the only way that they could make Dixie work. She could be fun solo or as a transform pairing with Kiddy but this is just the set I’d have the most fun with personally:


Dixie Kong with Animal Buddies

Basic Attributes:

I’m not really an expert on exact stats and percentages so I’ll just say that Dixie is slower and floatier than Diddy. What she lacks in speed, she makes up for in her amazing recovery.

Weak attacks:

Jab - Diddy’s jab combo

Forward Tilt - Dixie performs her signature hair twirl and moves slightly forward.

Up Tilt - Diddy’s up tilt

Down tilt - Dixie performs a sweep across the ground with her hair which can trip opponents.

Dash - Dixie’s hair twirl. Very similar to her forward tilt but continues her momentum for short while.

Smash attacks:

Forward Smash (Bubble Gum Gun) - This is basically a combination of Diddy’s Peanut Gun and Mega Man’s buster cannon. The animation is very similar to Diddy’s but the attack only travels as far as Mega Man’s. If she charges too long, the gum blows up in her face like Diddy’s Peanut Gun.

Up Smash - Diddy’s up smash

Down Smash - Dixie strums her electric guitar sending shockwaves around her which slightly stuns opponents before sending them flying. The shockwave is relatively short range (maybe 1.5x the range of Mewtwo’s neutral aerial) and functions a lot like ZSS’s blaster for the stun.

Grab:

Dixie has a fairly unique grab that functions very similarly to Donkey Kong’s. She grabs the opponent with her hair and carries them over her head. Like DK, she can walk around with them for a bit before tossing them in the chosen direction.

Specials:

Neutral Special (Rambi)- Dixie hops on top of Rambi. The move functions very similarly to Jigglypuff’s roll where Rambi charges up in place before dashing across the screen. Dixie jumps off as soon as the attack is finished.

Forward Special (Squitter): This is the only buddy that Dixie can move around freely while riding it. While riding Squitter, Dixie can fire webs in one of three directions, either straight ahead or in a 45 degree angle up or down depending on the direction held.

Up Special (Squawks): Squawks lifts Dixie and flies upward about the height of Pit’s Brawl special. While flying, Dixie can press neutral special to fire coconuts from Squawks’s mouth.

Down Special (Enguarde): Dixie hops on top of Enguarde and summons a big wave which carries them across and Enguarde jabs anyone in the way with its sword. This attack travels a much shorter distance than Rambi but has a good amount more height and no charge up time.

Aerial Attacks:

Neutral Air - Diddy’s neutral air

Forward Air - Dixie’s signature hair twirl. After performing the attack, you can hold the attack button to glide in a slightly downward trajectory like in her games.

Up Air - Diddy’s up air

Down Air - Diddy’s down air

For Dixie’s second jump, she performs a twirl with her hair that lifts her upwards, which is taken from her ability from Tropicsl Freeze.

Final Smash:

Dixie takes out her guitar and performs her stage victory theme sending huge shockwaves across the screen. This is a lot like Donkey Kong’s Final Smash from Brawl.

 

[Sucumbio]

I can get why people want it for the sake of shaping up the formula, but I think aerial smash attacks is a bad idea for a new mechanic.

That's an additional 4 to 5 animations per character, which doesn't sound like a lot but adds up quickly when extrapolated across 30 to 60 veterans. Robin gets around this issue by having the same animations for both his normal and smash aerials, but using a model swap and electric effects to denote which attack using. However, his animations were designed with this mechanic in mind. That's not the case for the rest of the roster. There's also the issue of how to handle certain characters from a balancing perspective like Sheik, who is balanced around the idea of struggling to KO with aerials.

This is also a personal issue, but I think the next Smash could stand to be slightly less focused on aerial combat than Ultimate. Most of the cast already wants to be in the air for a significant portion of both their neutral and advantage states. A lot of the characters that don't focus on being in the air are only that way because they have centralizing grounded options that generally make them unfun to play against, like Steve, Sonic, and Snake.

Maybe it could work in a pseudo-reboot with a roster of 40 to 50 characters, but there are a lot of issues I have with that concept generally.

As Tweek said a couple years ago Ultimate is all about jumping in with lagless buttons or spamming short hop lol I don't know how to fix it though... But maybe using smashes mid air doesn't need to make that aspect worse? If anything maybe it would discourage that play style? not sure lol

 

[Gorgonzales]

No offense to anyone, but fan movesets always end up in one of these three categories:
-"Press B to select a weapon!"
-every other move summons a different character
-every single move references a different power-up

There's actually a rare fourth category where the moveset creator understands these common pitfalls and tries to avoid them, leading to the creation of a fan moveset that can be described with adjectives like "good" and "coherent".

They exist, but are very uncommon. You should probably make a wish or something if you come across one.

 

[Gengar84]

A “good” moveset is entirely subjective. I don’t see anything wrong with referential movesets as long as the end result is fun to play. Some people prefer simpler sets and others really enjoy those references to moves, abilities, and mechanics from the character’s home series. Neither view is really wrong, just a different preference.

 

[Gorgonzales]

A “good” moveset is entirely subjective. I don’t see anything wrong with referential movesets as long as the end result is fun to play. Some people prefer simpler sets and others really enjoy those references to moves, abilities, and mechanics from the character’s home series. Neither view is really wrong, just a different preference.

A good moveset may be subjective but there are definite no-no's to avoid. For instance, visual clutter; look at NASB1. Nearly everything the characters do are specific references, and the game is so fast that the animations end up being hardly readable. You need to have a balance.

 

[Gengar84]

A good moveset may be subjective but there are definite no-no's to avoid. For instance, visual clutter; look at NASB1. Nearly everything the characters do are specific references, and the game is so fast that the animations end up being hardly readable. You need to have a balance.

I feel like that has more to do with NASB being poorly made than the moveset concept itself but I get what you’re saying. I’ll also agree it’s generally good to keep the normals relatively simple to avoid clutter but I like the specials as a way to really make the moveset flashy and visually interesting. Thats why I limited the buddies to just the four specials and kept the rest of the moves pretty basic taking from Dixie’s own abilities.

A better example of a completely referential moveset is K. Rool in Ultimate. Besides his down special, nearly everything he does is pulled directly from his boss attacks in DKC. I personally find him a lot of fun to play and he’s almost exactly how I wanted him. NASB isn’t the greatest example in my opinion because the game was made on a much smaller budget by less experienced developers. It was never going to look as good as Smash.

 

[IronWarrior94]

If Switch 2 releases in 2025, then we might get a hypotetical Smash 6 by like late 2027/early 2028, will Metroid Dread really be THAT irrelevant by then? The game will be 6 years old by then and it's a praised metroid entry.
I still think Raven Beak has a decent chance (No high, mind you, but decent enough to be considered)

Perhaps irrelevant is the wrong word, more like Dread's status as the most recent completely new Metroid game will be replaced by the eventual coming of Prime 4. Many suspect Sylux will have a prominent role in Prime 4, and thus he would be the most likely Metroid newcomer.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

The thing with Dixie using Squawks for her up B is that being able to propel in the air is her entire thing, especially in Tropical Freeze. Why would she need Squawks? It's like removing a core character trait for a reference that's not really related to the character.

Of course everyone has their preferences, but in my opinion the Animal Buddies should just be Assist Trophies or stage cameos.

 

[Perkilator]

My ideal Dixie is a Diddy Echo with the Bubblegum Popgun as a neutral special, Spinning Kong as an up special, and Rambi as a Final Smash.

 

[Gengar84]

The thing with Dixie using Squawks for her up B is that being able to propel in the air is her entire thing, especially in Tropical Freeze. Why would she need Squawks? It's like removing a core character trait for a reference that's not really related to the character.

Of course everyone has their preferences, but in my opinion the Animal Buddies should just be Assist Trophies or stage cameos.

Dixie has more of a horizontal gliding trajectory than propelling herself upwards. She does perform a little hop in Tropical Freeze but she doesn’t really get any more height than a basic jump, which can be referenced by a double jump animation. Similarly, you could ask why Peach needs to pull out a parasol for her up special when she can just float.

Squawks and Rattly were the primary means of getting a ton of upwards mobility in the DKC games, which is why I felt either could work great as a special. Kind of like how Banjo, Sonic and Pac Man summon a spring to bounce up and Mega Man summons Rush. None of these are exclusively their own abilities but they work well as moves in the context of Smash. I think Rush is definitely the best of these and an Animal Buddy would just be doing the same thing.

 

[Louie G.]

I think sometimes we need to take a step back and recognize what's being argued in terms of referential kits vs archetypical, abstract moveset design. In my perfect world both are true. A character should be able to pay homage to their source material and feel like themselves, while also fitting into a gameplay niche that provides them with distinct quirks, strengths and weaknesses to build around. I would say this is the philosophy that Smash is built on already, and as such I don't really believe anyone intends to totally neglect one in favor of the other.

There's been a bit of a skeptical attitude toward reference-heavy movesets lately. I think this has probably developed from a handful of individual factors - fan movesets with a "two flickies" philosophy of summoning things out of thin air for the sake of the reference, games like NASB that feel like they take this to an extreme and base moves off something a character has only done once, and Smash's own problems juggling accuracy with game feel that has led to a handful of unbalanced or unwieldy characters. I honestly agree with all of this. I think it's healthy we're finally realizing that making references is not the end all be all to a great moveset, but I guess I'm also of the belief that Sakurai usually deals with this tastefully.

I will say, in respect to NASB, their most impressive designs to me were the ones where they had to get creative and build around an archetype or gameplay style. Nigel Thornberry and the Angry Beavers come to mind, the former being inspired by aerial centric Smash characters like Jigglypuff and the latter being a stance change, MVC-style summoner character. Their movesets are built largely off their designs, aesthetic or character traits moreso than they are direct references to their shows. Nigel imitates animals, the beavers whip their tails around and toss out pinecones and logs. In my opinion, even though it's not always something we've explicitly seen them do, it feels like it's serving them well. It conveys who the characters are.

These are a couple that feel the most in spirit with Smash's design philosophy, and that's the kind of character design I really like. It's that balance of finding a defined, unique gameplay role for a character that their identity and abilities smoothly lend themselves to. Without letting that referential quality overtake a clear gameplay essence, and without sacrificing character to squeeze them into a niche they don't belong.

 

[Gengar84]

For me personally, I value two things in a moveset. First and foremost, is the moveset fun to play? Thats the most important thing. An overly complicated moveset can make the character feel clunky and confusing, especially for newcomers.

Second, does the moveset feel like playing them in their home series? I think this one is almost as important to me. I love the concept of a character being pulled straight from their series and into Smash. Some moves have to be simplified for the sake of coherence but I think it’s important to make the character actually feel like themselves.

A big part of why I loved DKC so much was the animal buddies. They added a ton to the gameplay of the series and there’s plenty of room to reference them with Dixie while keeping everything that makes her her.

 

[DarthEnderX]

For me personally, I value two things in a moveset. First and foremost, is the moveset fun to play? Thats the most important thing. An overly complicated moveset can make the character feel clunky and confusing, especially for newcomers.

Second, does the moveset feel like playing them in their home series? I think this one is almost as important to me. I love the concept of a character being pulled straight from their series and into Smash. Some moves have to be simplified for the sake of coherence but I think it’s important to make the character actually feel like themselves.

Now see, I consider those two to be practically mutually exclusive.

I completely agree with the first thing. But I find that, a lot of the time, when a character tries to replicate it's home series too closely, the moveset ends up feeling clunky and confusing.

I prefer it when a character just LOOKS like it's using moves from it's own game, but it just plays just like a normal Smash character.

 

[Gengar84]

Now see, I consider those two to be practically mutually exclusive.

I completely agree with the first thing. But I find that, a lot of the time, when a character tries to replicate it's home series too closely, the moveset ends up feeling clunky and confusing.

I prefer it when a character just LOOKS like it's using moves from it's own game, but it just plays just like a normal Smash character.

Yeah, I think there’s a good middle ground they should aim for. They should still feel like a Smash character with a relatively simple moveset but I think it’s good to pull inspiration from their home game where they can as long as it doesn’t make the character overly confusing to play. I think it’s fine if they want to make a character hard to master but still easy enough to pick up and play for beginners. I feel both Terry and Kazuya excelled at this where Steve and Mega Man just feel a bit awkward if you don’t really know what you’re doing.

 

[fogbadge]

Second, does the moveset feel like playing them in their home series? I think this one is almost as important to me. I love the concept of a character being pulled straight from their series and into Smash. Some moves have to be simplified for the sake of coherence but I think it’s important to make the character actually feel like themselves.

Surely that one is very subjective? Can’t say there’s to many characters who feel like they do in their home series. Even then how they feel can change from one game to another

 

[Slime Scholar]

This is also a personal issue, but I think the next Smash could stand to be slightly less focused on aerial combat than Ultimate.

I can’t find the quote right now but Sakurai once talked about how competitive Smash has players using a lot of the same low-risk, low-reward aerial moves rather than a fighter’s entire kit. That’s probably why Ultimate nerfed the damage on short hop attacks specifically to help move away from that.

I agree that it’d be nice if they could further decentralize aerial combat but I do wonder how many practical ways there are of doing that.

 

[Gengar84]

Surely that one is very subjective? Can’t say there’s to many characters who feel like they do in their home series. Even then how they feel can change from one game to another

Yeah, it is subjective. That’s why I said those are things I value in a moveset, not something every moveset has to have.

 

[TheQuester]

Kind of a random take, but i think Plant is more likely to return than most people think, like i think he's more likely out than back, don't get me wrong, but Sakurai loves it's weird characters.

Adding to my previous statement, Plant is also pretty iconic, also Sakurai has never cut a WTF character before (G&W, ROB and WFT came back).
I think the biggest point aganist Plant is that people will complain if Plant returns over any other character, but i mean, i can't imagine many people begin upset that Plant made it over let's say Incineroar or Corrin, which are probably in similar priority for returning.

 

[Louie G.]

I think the biggest point aganist Plant is that people will complain if Plant returns over any other character, but i mean, i can't imagine many people begin upset that Plant made it over let's say Incineroar or Corrin, which are probably in similar priority for returning.

My thoughts aside (I will be upset to lose Incineroar either way, and I like Plant a lot), this is exactly why Plant is unlikely to return. If these are the characters it's sharing space with, seemingly expendable picks from the most fruitful series on the roster, then it's essentially doomed. It's difficult to justify cutting any amount of characters and not looking toward Mario, Pokemon and Fire Emblem first.

And unlike those other surprise picks, Piranha Plant is not representing its own series. We'll see how well this holds up into next game, but up to this point Sakurai is pretty hesitant to cut down on the sole representatives of first party universes. Ice Climbers, G&W, ROB, Wii Fit Trainer, Duck Hunt... they're small or "minor" universes in the grand scheme but I think priority is dealt toward maintaining these over clinging onto the seventh priority Mario character. Maybe eighth? I'd bank on Daisy getting the Falco treatment over Plant returning, honestly.

Plant's best bet is being a low priority character who slinks in last minute, like Jigglypuff. By that metric I think there's a sliver of a chance it's thrown a lifeline.

 

[Arcanir]

Perhaps irrelevant is the wrong word, more like Dread's status as the most recent completely new Metroid game will be replaced by the eventual coming of Prime 4. Many suspect Sylux will have a prominent role in Prime 4, and thus he would be the most likely Metroid newcomer.

Ironically, MP4 may have the opposite problem, at least for base game. Even assuming it releases this year it'll still be potentially coming after the next Smash has started development and picked it's roster which means it'll potentially release too late to get a character.