No More Advanced Techs: A Solution

[shortwanabelaker]

The lack of advanced techniques seems to be a concern on everyone’s mind right now. I want to put in my input on the matter to show how it isn’t as bad as most think it is and possibly end to the commotion (not possible I know).

Let me start by saying competitiveness is not defined by speed. Melee may have been played at incredible speeds, but that didn’t necessarily define a higher level of play. The only thing that advanced techniques did was create a barrier between those who practiced using these techniques and those who didn’t. In reality it just created two types of game-play that rarely coincided. I believe that the true definition of competitiveness is shown when two players who are evenly skilled in the category of advanced techniques played against each other (this includes noobs and pros).

By removing the advanced techniques, the creators of Brawl have also removed this barrier. All players are on the same level now. What does this mean? A player’s ability will not be defined by how fast his fingers move from X to L and diagonal down to down B back to X and so on.

To give an example, what separates Ken, PC, M2K and who ever else from the rest of the population of pros? I’m sure that most of the pros and most of you who are reading this can wavedash, l-cancel, and all that other good stuff just as well as those guys. What set them apart is their mind games, timing (not only when to press what, but when to do what as well), and prediction.

Now due to all the advanced techniques being out, basically players lose “total character control.” This may be true but it does not mean that the characters are not controllable. Losing total control is something both sides will face, and keep matches at an even level. Not being able to wavedash or l-cancel will cause the game to be played at a slower pace. This does not take away from its competitiveness.

Pros will still be pros and will not lose to people who just pick up the game to play for fun. The competitive scene will still be the same but tournaments may have more entrants since the barrier has been broken.

Due to the lack of advanced techniques, Brawl will be based on player talent and intelligence instead of speed.
Here is a brief list of traits I believe will lead to wins in Brawl:
• Player talent and intelligence instead of finger speed
• Ability to learn opponent’s patterns instantly
• Good timing of attacks so misses are rare
• Prediction to a whole new extent
• Playing around character weaknesses instead of through them

Basically, play smarter instead of faster.



Personal note:

I want to say that I do not use any advanced techniques in melee. Before the flaming and the various “you fail” pictures begin to pop up, let me add that I have nothing against players who do use them. I actually like playing against those who do use advanced techniques rather than those who don’t. And yes, I’m sure most of you will destroy me in melee, but I have won against many tournament goers who are quite “techy.”




So this is my view on Brawl and the changes from melee and how it will affect the competitive scene. What do you think?


-- Edit --
I want to know why all the pros are so against removal of advanced techniques. It just means all games will be closer. As sakurai said, a noob should be able to kill a pro at least once in 10 games. Which means more people to play / beat.

 

[shortwanabelaker]

hmm.. i wanna add that some simple techs are in like fox trotting and the reverse jump thing, but they arent that advanced

 

[Blackshadow]

Stop self advertising in other threads. If people don't feel like replying to your topic, its usually for a good reason.

*Realizes irony in posting in said thread*

 

[Epsilon52]

mindgames>speed

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

We don't want the gap between players to be closed! What's the point in even competing if all the players are equal? All that does is make it even harder to find high end players because high end play doesn't exist!

No.

 

[veil222]

Ditto to black with some addition, alot of what you said has been mirrored elsewhere. I don't mean to be harsh, but do you really think someone will change their mind about being unhappy over techs because of a post like this? Walls of text aren't good for a point that could have been made more simply, and advertising in other threads is a pretty bad idea unless the thread you're advertising is *directly* related to exactly what you're talking about.

 

[gdtyrael]

Yeah his right bout the speed part. If speed would mean everything Sonic will be Top, and as far as the tons of vids I already seen of Brawl, he will not be. I play zelda in melee, her WD is crap, although I use it a lot to spacing, but its certainly not a big loss compared to a sheik player or fox marth etc. More than that I Think mind>technic. Even in melee, u have an outstanding mind, u win a tech pro with little mind game.

 

[Epsilon52]

Ditto to black with some addition, alot of what you said has been mirrored elsewhere. I don't mean to be harsh, but do you really think someone will change their mind about being unhappy over techs because of a post like this? Walls of text aren't good for a point that could have been made more simply, and advertising in other threads is a pretty bad idea unless the thread you're advertising is *directly* related to exactly what you're talking about.

-thats not a wall of text,,,it was well organized....

 

[veil222]

I meant it's size, not format.

 

[Ryuker]

You don't have a clue what you are talking about now do you? Winning in melee has always been about intelligence, talent and playing smart. Do you honestly believe it was finger speed?

 

[veil222]

Alot of people believe it is, because you've gotta learn the techs before you can learn to use them smart and add them to your mindgames. But to be fair, I do believe alot of the adv techs made the game unbalanced.

 

[Epsilon52]

as i posted somewhere aelse just a minute ago...

pizza>mindgames>speed

 

[Ryuker]

Alot of people believe it is, because you've gotta learn the techs before you can learn to use them smart and add them to your mindgames. But to be fair, I do believe alot of the adv techs made the game unbalanced.

Then those people don't know how this game works... . Can you describe a example of a advanced technique making it unbalanced?

 

[Toomai]

Waveshining unbalances Fox and Falco against other chars. And the shine also makes them broken on any stage with a wall. But again, this only applies to those who have the finger speed (and practice).

When you think about it, the only advanced techniques that unbalance the gameplay are those that only apply to certain characters (waveshine, DJC) and those that work better for certain characters (wavedash, L-cancelling removes the weakness of powerful laggy aerials which not everyone has). When you take those out...my knowledge isn't the best, but does that leave us with anything?

 

[Epsilon52]

even with wavedashing and lcanceling...its still the same..

marth is faster than bowser in either scenario

capt falcon is a quicker hitter than ganondorf in either scenario

 

[Sterkuleze]

I'm so happy advanced techniques are gone

 

[Eriorguez]

Melee Advance techs may be gone, but Brawl advance techs will appear. THis ain't Melee 2.5, but it is Brawl.

 

[kenkowtow]

I don't think you read the "Mindgames" topic in the Melee general discussion did you?

 

[Purgatory]

true, withmind games gone, their will be more entrans to tourneys and what not. Though the fact that everyone is complaining about brawl's lack of advance techs, they'll all learn to get use to it and move on. Im sure Brawl will have advance techs too that pros can use and shouldnt break the game to certain character's side.

 

[Cheezball]

I'm so happy advanced techniques are gone

Quoted for awesomeness. I completely agree. Advanced techs in my view made everything unfair, I think this thread may be the only actual good complaint thread out there. Cheers for no advanced techs! :bigthumbu

 

[Ryuker]

Waveshining unbalances Fox and Falco against other chars. And the shine also makes them broken on any stage with a wall. But again, this only applies to those who have the finger speed (and practice).

When you think about it, the only advanced techniques that unbalance the gameplay are those that only apply to certain characters (waveshine, DJC) and those that work better for certain characters (wavedash, L-cancelling removes the weakness of powerful laggy aerials which not everyone has). When you take those out...my knowledge isn't the best, but does that leave us with anything?

Yet it doesn't break the game. It is more rewarding if you manage to catch the opening but it doesn't break the gameplay nor make it a one sided match. Thus balance is still very much intact. L-cancelling actually improved the use of slow chars cause they found a way to act faster after an arial. Think before you say cause your not making sense as it is. You want something unbalanced? Marth shield breaker edge guard vs ganon for example. But hey that was in the game from the beginning before actuall advanced techniques were discovered.

It's so interesting that I see all these posts about the happiness wavedashing is gone eventhough they don't realise what a huge loss it is if you look at edge guarding for example. You can't deny that if you look at the edge guarding you see in the vids now it doesn't look nearly as appealing as edge guarding in melee.

true, withmind games gone.

What? Mindgames isn't a technique or anything. Learn to think before posting or something>.>.

Quoted for awesomeness. I completely agree. Advanced techs in my view made everything unfair, I think this thread may be the only actual good complaint thread out there. Cheers for no advanced techs!

What do you mean unfair :S. If you mean you losing all the time then I guess you just need to learn how to play smart ...

 

[Super Smash Master]

Advance techniques are just lame. Why use glitches to be good at the game? That's like snaking in Mario kart. Play the game how it was intended.

 

[Cheezball]

What do you mean unfair :S. If you mean you losing all the time then I guess you just need to learn how to play smart ...

I should have said that I don't like them. I play fair, as in without those glitches. Don't tell me they aren't glitches because they are. Anything that wasn't meant to happen/be in a game is a glitch. They shouldn't even be called techs, its more like advanced useful glitches.

 

[ShOcKoLaTe]

to all those saying that pros were pros because they practiced advanced techs.....well sorry but if you want to be good at something you have to practice.

 

[Ebony Princess]

to all those saying that pros were pros because they practiced advanced techs.....well sorry but if you want to be good at something you have to practice.

But without advanced techniques, you have to practice playing the game normally to get good, not exploits.

 

[El_Latigo]

I'm not an experienced player and so welcome these changes.

 

[Cheezball]

But without advanced techniques, you have to practice playing the game normally to get good, not exploits.

And... what's wrong with that? Practice is better than becoming awesome in 30 minutes. I like taking my time.

 

[Anti-]

Sigh this is just going to turn into another Pro vs Casual thread...
The thing that bugs me is if two people, equally intelligent, but one thinks a little faster, the other a little smarter, and the faster thinker loses because and only because the playing field is stacked against the faster thinker, since when the faster thinker does something, the other person has alot more time to react whereas in melee, you not only had to think smart, but also fast.
A game shouldn't try to cut off one type of play, a fast thinker should not be handicapped by all the characters being slow. A fast thinker should be able to play a fast character, a smart player should be able to play a slower character. They shouldn't all be equal in speed, it handicaps some people, having to think at the speed of the other player.

I play fair, as in without those glitches. Don't tell me they aren't glitches because they are.

I totally agree that they are glitches, but I still use them. Why wouldn't you? Just because they are glitches, doesn't mean they aren't fair. I want to get better, so i am going to do everything in my power that isn't considered cheating (i.e. Modified Controllers) to win. Everyone has access to them, so you can use them too. If you have some moral disgust with them that causes you to not play them, then don't play them, nobody is forcing you, stand up for your beliefs. You won't win many tournements, but that's not your fault, right? I mean, it's their fault for taking the time and effort to master a technique and get better. You shouldn't have to get better, the playing field should just be evened, they should be forced to be worse.

But without advanced techniques, you have to practice playing the game normally to get good, not exploits.

Are you saying that some n00b who picks up the game, never played it before, learns how to wavedash, and is automatically better than someone who's been playing for years? Or do you mean that someone who's been playing just as long as someone else, and takes the extra effort to learn how to make himself a better player?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Okay, just let me point something out.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF ADVANCE TECHS ARE NOT GLITCHES

L-canceling was specifically modified from Z-canceling=Not Glitch

Wavedashing is the combination of the special land fall animation+directional airdodge+jumping(all of which were intended seperartely but it took a while for us to apply them together)=Not Glitch

Ledgehopping is letting go of the ledge and then using your second jump=Not Glitch

Edgeteching is smash DIing into the wall and wall teching=Not Glitch

Double Jump Canceling was specifically programmed into the game=Not Glitch

SHFFL is Short hop+Fast fall+ L-cancel (non of which are glitches)=Not Glitch

Desync is taking advantage of Nana doing attacks after Popo based on what button you pressed and not based on what Popo was actually doing at the time=Not Glitch


So don't go calling advance techs glitches because that is a blanket, and inaccurate steryotype. The few glitches I know about are

Superwavedash
Float Cancel
Yoyo Glitch
Land cancelling lasers

As you can see, the first list was a lot bigger, and the advance techs that actually are glitches are very character specific.

 

[Frames]

I should have said that I don't like them. I play fair, as in without those glitches. Don't tell me they aren't glitches because they are. Anything that wasn't meant to happen/be in a game is a glitch. They shouldn't even be called techs, its more like advanced useful glitches.

Dude, they're not glitches, a lot of this stuff was intentional.

Ya see, we have it set up real convienient like, where anything that actually IS a glitch, has the word "glitch" in it.

Ex. Black Hole Glitch, Yo-Yo Glitch, Freeze Glitch, Kamikaze glitch

And guess what, most of them are banned in tournaments anyway, so knowing them doesn't make you any better.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sonic Wave don't lower yourself by posting in the same thread as this...filth.

*Walks out of thread.

 

[Ryuker]

I should have said that I don't like them. I play fair, as in without those glitches. Don't tell me they aren't glitches because they are. Anything that wasn't meant to happen/be in a game is a glitch. They shouldn't even be called techs, its more like advanced useful glitches.

You don't play fair. You limit yourself. Thats not fair thats just dumb. Besides that you demand others limit them selves as well. Thats not fair thats selfish... . Don't give me crap on how this game was intended to be played cause you don't know what's intended. Doesn't matter as well. All that matters is that you find your own way of using this game. If you chose not to use everything available to you then so be it that's your choice. But don't tell me how to play...

 

[Norm]

As of right now we don't know what advanced techs are in the game nones had it long enough to find the glitches so people just need to take'er easy and wait it was some time before all the advanced techs were discovered in melee. So people just need to chill out and wait several years from people obsessed with finding these techs to find them and convey them to the general public.

 

[Sugata Designs]

You guys talk about Advanced Techs like they're God-mode or something. Jeeze.

To put it simply, intended to be in the game or not, those techniques were determined by THE AGREEMENT OF MANY PROFESSIONAL PLAYERS to be balanced and perfectly fair. Just because you can't do them doesn't mean they are cheap by any means.

I mean, professional players, whether intelligent or idiotic, all provide input on newly found techniques, and like it or not, techniques considered "fair" are considered as such BY A MAJORITY. If it weren't that way, then the techniques would be banned from tournament play.

If we discovered a way in Brawl to be invincible all the time, it would be banned from tournament play even if a pro here or there said it was a legitimate "tech", as a majority would say it's ******** and cheap, hence being banned.

Also, for the record, advanced players' fingers don't move fast on their own. They move fast because their brain moves fast. Top players are up there because they excel in all areas of play, from mind games to decision-making and fast reaction time to knowledge of advanced techniques to simply knowing their character in and out.

Gah.

Anyways, advanced techs will almost certainly be found in Brawl, so I don't think there's anything to worry about.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Yay for smart people. We need more people like you to join our site.

 

[Blatherskite]

This is an old and tired argument that simply does not work. Any nimrod can perform an advanced technique if they practice long enough, but it doesn't mean squat. What matters is how you use those advanced techniques. If you don't know how to use them, then you essentially haven't become better at all, and in fact, you might even be worse. What the TC fails to realize is that the advanced techniques enhanced the mental game. It provided more options and things that you could do to win.

We're not going to have the same mental game that we did in Melee, and it's likely that it will be worse. We won't have ATs, so we won't have many options and decisions to make. And the pace of the game will be far slower, meaning that we won't have to think as fast.

If anything, the mental game is what suffers the most from the transition from Melee to Brawl.

 

[DTR]

umm... who ever said ATs were gone in the 1st place?

Just because WDing and L-canceling are gone doesnt mean ATs are gone

you do realize the game has been out for a whole 4 days... there will be new stuff found, but probably not as much.

stop jumping to conclusions people... there is too much of that here at smash boards

 

[Adi]

^ End of thread.

 

[Takumaru]

umm... who ever said ATs were gone in the 1st place?

Just because WDing and L-canceling are gone doesnt mean ATs are gone

you do realize the game has been out for a whole 4 days... there will be new stuff found, but probably not as much.

stop jumping to conclusions people... there is too much of that here at smash boards

True statement. The brawl forums are a disgrace to SWF.

 

[Blatherskite]

umm... who ever said ATs were gone in the 1st place?

Just because WDing and L-canceling are gone doesnt mean ATs are gone

you do realize the game has been out for a whole 4 days... there will be new stuff found, but probably not as much.
stop jumping to conclusions people... there is too much of that here at smash boards

Ok, I didn't literally mean all ATs are out, but the part in bold is enough to prove my point. And hoping that more or even the same amount of ATs are found in Brawl is nothing more than wishful thinking.