Not a Tier List: Montage's Character ratings: New Info: Meta, Sonic, Snake, Lucario

[matthewmilad]

Tethers

I think you should update for the fact that Tether characters are gimped.
When you edge hog, no matter when you got onto the ledge, tether recoveries won't work anymore. So this pretty much kills Ivysaur, and it hurts Olimar a lot too.
Characters less affected but still affected are:
ZSS
Link
T Link
Lucas

-1.5 to Ivysaur and Olimar IMO
I'd let the rest be. Test it out and see how much you think it hurts them in your opinion since these are all your opinions to begin with.

 

[supersonicdjs]

It's a matter of how many Sonic Games you played to determine if you can Master Sonic.

I will do ANYTHING and I mean ANYTHING to Master Sonic.

Cause' I will.

 

[scarecrowuknow]

hmm... toon link kinda suprised me... i didnt expect him to do so much (i expected him to be like the young link that nobody used.. guess i was wrong)
i only wished that they kept falco's DB the same... i dont know what im gonna do with him now...
and yea... really helpful thread.. :-D

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Lucas doesn't really suffer from lack of tether recovery. Most Lucas players just use PKThunder2.

 

[StealthFighterX]

Im glad Fox still owns...and for sonic we just need to play him and practice...ima main fox/sonic this thread really shows us somthing i think personally. Nobodys really bad...save for yoshi and link lol.. and sadly Falcon.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

It's so sad that Captain Falcon of all people could end up being worst in the game.

How does Ganondorf get around the same problems that Falcon has? I suppose he has more reward for his risk, unlike Falcon who doesn't hit all that hard in the first place.

 

[dmbrandon]

I'm really suprised that Diddy is so fast on the chart and ZSS is slower.

Also according to the list, fox, falco, and wolf are all pretty much the same speed?

Oh and can't zss use the DownB kickjump as recovery, then get another jump out of it?

Speed isn't just running, it's how fast the moveset comes out. ZSS is slower than diddy.

...Brandon, why don't you just edit ZSS to say, "she has three jumps with her DB, but we don't feel like it's enough".

Why don't you read the thread, instead of just posting?

 

[Mario_ 101]

Too bad mario and yoshi seem to be underrated.

 

[SWORDMASTER X7]

Before you updated MK, his rating was 6.5, you gave him a +1 for this update, but his rating is still 6.5. You should fix it.

 

[Proven]

Ok, so despite reading this thread from the day you first posted it, and being the first to talk about the ZSS Down B thing and then reading your response to it, you go and shoot me down when I try to suggest something to help against follow up questions that have been answered but won't be seen because this is a 44 page thread. Fine.

 

[The Alchemist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVvfHoUUND4


uuuuhh ZSS looks pretty **** go...lity and those paralyzing attacks look great.

 

[sv3]

Speed isn't just running, it's how fast the moveset comes out. ZSS is slower than diddy.



Why don't you read the thread, instead of just posting?

You want people to read a 44 page thread to find the correction to a mistake in the first post? It's been clearly shown that ZSS does not 'only' have a tether recovery move.

Edit: Actually, a mistake as basic as that (it's a character's recovery, after all) makes some of the analysis in this thread questionable.

 

[dmbrandon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVvfHoUUND4


uuuuhh ZSS looks pretty **** go...uff, you shouldn't be playing fighting games.

 

[mosk123]

^NESSBOUNDER^

C.Falcon isn't bad at all..

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Hey I was just wondering something:

Can Ganon's Side B attack be teched? It seems like it blasts the opponent into the ground at close range, and if that's the case, then it could very well be techable if you have good timing.

 

[ComradeSAL]

fair enough. I suppose statistics need numbers in order to be considered "real" statistics.

But honestly, I'm studying to become a game designer/animator myself, and I do have an idea about how characters in fighting games are designed and made. And from what I can tell from a design point of view, Ganondorf really is intended to be a very strong, "unsafe" character. That is, he just doesn't have as many options as other characters, but tries to make up for it with a lot of very hard-hitting moves.

The lag at the end of his aerial attacks over-balances him, especially his Dair. Against a smart opponent, Ganondorf has very few attacks that he can use safely without getting punished. Lucario on the other hand, technically has all the ingredients to be a decent to good character.

I've made basically the opposite of Ganondorf in MUGEN before, a home-made character named Maxime who is still in his beta version right now. His attacks are all so weak that it takes him a 22-hit combo to do what other characters would do with 3 hits, but he is incredibly safe and easy to use. Basically, he is balanced by Melty Blood standards, and still has no problem beating heavy, powerful characters.

Really, Ganondorf's lag is an issue, it is the same with most fighters.

Maxime sounds like a button-masher's wet-dream. From a theorist's standpoint, I would have serious concerns about how skill-testing your game was. But! I haven't played your game, so I wouldn't know.

I agree that in a general sense strong, unsafe characters like Ganondorf tend to be underpowered. That is not to say, however, that that will always be the case because there are other variables besides safety and power, many of which are tough to quantify or predict.

In the end, generalizations like these (fast characters tend to be better than slow characters, safe moves tend to be better than unsafe moves, hi-priority attacks tend to be better than low-priority attacks) are only guidelines; they are not absolutes. You can use them to make guess-work about how good Ganondorf will be, but nothing will replace actually playing as him vs. competent opponents who are trying to punish you when you miss.

Also: no one is saying that Ganondorf is good. A 6.5 isn't exactly a glowing recommendation.

 

[dmbrandon]

^NESSBOUNDER^

C.Falcon isn't bad at all..

/joke post.

Hey I was just wondering something:

Can Ganon's Side B attack be teched? It seems like it blasts the opponent into the ground at close range, and if that's the case, then it could very well be techable if you have good timing.

Perhaps. I will test this tomorrow

 

[Maben]

dmbrandon you forgot to make C. Falcon's 2nd edit in blue (since it's a negative edit). Link's is also orange but you don't have a +/- on that one so that one could make sense. It's a minor detail, but what can I say I'm a perfectionist. (I love your post and constant updates btw, they are much appreciated.

 

[AllStars]

thanks for the info, im stickin wit fox and toon link when i play

 

[mosk123]

^dmbrandon^
explain to me why you think C.Falcon is bad.
He is good in SSE, thats all ive played him in.

 

[Proven]

This is common knowledge. If you don't understand this stuff, you shouldn't be playing fighting games.

Ha! Common knowledge. Just wait to see how this board lights up with the US release.

 

[dmbrandon]

dmbrandon you forgot to make C. Falcon's 2nd edit in blue (since it's a negative edit). Link's is also orange but you don't have a +/- on that one so that one could make sense. It's a minor detail, but what can I say I'm a perfectionist. (I love your post and constant updates btw, they are much appreciated.

You're awesome! haha :D

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

@ComradeSal

Maxime is indeed a button masher's wet dream, but a noob's worst nightmare XD. A lot of his attacks are "mash the button" moves. However, his moves are exaggeratedly weak and his best moves have punishable lag. He's also small and has very short range. You also have to concentrate very hard on his combos because you literally have to hit the opponent about a hundred times before they sustain much damage.

I get so many requests from players who want me to make him more powerful because of this, but I know that if I make him any stronger, he'll be broken. He also has a lot of countering attacks and an irritating projectile. And he is balanced so far. Powerful characters with long range give him a lot of problems.

Anyway, It's not Ganondorf's rating I'm complaining about. I just don't think Lucario is worse than him.

 

[h1roshi]

i like how diddy's shaping out to be a beast...peace

-hiro

 

[Vanish07]

thanks for the info dudes, and no worries; real gamers appreciate the time you guys are putting into giving us all the inside scoop before the game comes out. don't listen to these other guys crying their eyes out about yoshi's ratings, or mario's fair...man who cares.

 

[Gum]

fair enough. I suppose statistics need numbers in order to be considered "real" statistics.

But honestly, I'm studying to become a game designer/animator myself, and I do have an idea about how characters in fighting games are designed and made. And from what I can tell from a design point of view, Ganondorf really is intended to be a very strong, "unsafe" character. That is, he just doesn't have as many options as other characters, but tries to make up for it with a lot of very hard-hitting moves.

The lag at the end of his aerial attacks over-balances him, especially his Dair. Against a smart opponent, Ganondorf has very few attacks that he can use safely without getting punished. Lucario on the other hand, technically has all the ingredients to be a decent to good character.

I've made basically the opposite of Ganondorf in MUGEN before, a home-made character named Maxime who is still in his beta version right now. His attacks are all so weak that it takes him a 22-hit combo to do what other characters would do with 3 hits, but he is incredibly safe and easy to use. Basically, he is balanced by Melty Blood standards, and still has no problem beating heavy, powerful characters.

Really, Ganondorf's lag is an issue, it is the same with most fighters.

Im actually studying to become an animator as well. As far as the designer's point of view, though you are right that hit lag makes him sadly punishable in most cases, it seems also that he can almost L-cancel if he does a B move right after he lands. There is a video of him doing a down B and a forward B immediately after landing from a forward air, and it completely cancels the landing lag. could warrant more investigation.

 

[Zant3tsuken]

What can I say, I would appreciate the information on offer, but after reading some of the comments in random pages, the arrogance displayed by the OP makes it not worth the time. Be more objective and this would be a great thread.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Dude, WTF, no Kirby? You cant ignore a character just because you don't like him. It shows you to be obviously biased and discredits everything else.

 

[dmbrandon]

What can I say, I would appreciate the information on offer, but after reading some of the comments in random pages, the arrogance displayed by the OP makes it not worth the time. Be more objective and this would be a great thread.

If it makes you feel better, ff8 is too good! Thanks for reading the whole thread!@ :D

Dude, WTF, no Kirby? You cant ignore a character just because you don't like him. It shows you to be obviously biased and discredits everything else.

You should feel better, considering a character I don't like didn't get reviewed to AVOID bias! I HATE the spacies, I rated them fairly, I assume.

 

[Magus420]

Kirby:
Is a beast.
Rating: Pretty Good/10

 

[mosk123]

Kirby can be good.
I would say about 7, maybe more or less.
He's a pretty good all rounder IMO

 

[Arcsine]

Thanks for the info! =D

Some of the statistics I've seen here clash somewhat with what I've seen in a number of videos, mind you I understand that watching a game and playing it are 2 different animals and as such I won't attempt to discredit anything I've read thus far.

A few of these numbers are slightly disheartening, hopefully when the NA release hits we'll see more advanced techniques pop up evening the playing field.

Never the less thanks for the detailed report on the characters thus far, I hope to read more.

 

[Blue sHell]

please read brandon

Metaknight:
Man, he looks cool. Keyword: looks. He's fast, and his combos are nuts, but he lacks the ability to KO. Only his Dsmash, Glide attack, and UB seem to get it done, and they're hard to land.
Rating: 6.5/10


Pikachu:
Hell yeah. DB can be spammed like hell.
Rating:7.5/10

dm, I'm sorry if I come off as a bit snobbish here. And know that I really really care too much about the Pikachu and Metaknight and that I'm just trying to make a point, but:

The fact that you didn't even mention Metaknight's Fowardsmash as a VERY EASY kill move to land, and the fact that you say Pika's DownB could be spammed like hell leads me to believe that you're really not paying much attention to the diminishing knockback aspect of the game now.

Yes, fowardsmash as Metaknight is a good ender to alot of his combos and is just a good move in general, but it shouldn't be spammed. He really does need that for killing. Replay Metaknight and never use your fowardsmash until around 120% and tell me if it's difficult to kill as him.

And about Pikachu, the tests done on his downB on Mario killed him at 76%(without DI, but still) from the middle of final D. His Uptilt and UpAir combos lead directly into DownB too. But again, shouldn't...be...spammed...ever. My friend's pikachu could kill Pit(average weight) at around 60% after leading him into a Upair > Upair > Down B combo.

Again I'm not trying to sound like a smarta$s, but I think you should replay alot of your characters more throughly and use this 'save your kill moves' aspect more openly.

 

[Collective of Bears]

Mango is broken.

Apparently, but WHAT IS IT?

 

[Talvi]

I apreciate a lot these info, and watching your vids on youtube I see that you are not bad players. Even though we can't tell anything yet about what could be tiers, it's a good aproach to a possible competitive scene.

Oh, and would you mind checking Kirby someday? ^_^

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

From what I've seen in about a week of solid play, youur rankings aren't the most accurate.

The best 4 seem to be, without a doubt, Zelda, Marth, Olimar and Lucas... even if this turns out not to be the case witht the official teirs, they should certainly ALL be near the top.

As fort he worst... thus far I'm saying sonic, metaknight, yoshi and peach... but that could change. I'm not as set on those...

Also ZSS is superior to Power Suit Samus by everything I've seen... I have no idea why you would rank her higher at all... much less by so much

 

[mosk123]

err ^ above poster

one of the best characters in thius game is metaknight.
zelda is friken awesome i will agree.

sonic is actually very good, hard to play and get use to though

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

err ^ above poster

one of the best characters in thius game is metaknight.
zelda is friken awesome i will agree.

sonic is actually very good, hard to play and get use to though

both sonic and metaknight are SORELY lacking in the KOing department. Meta knight has at least some moves, but for the most part, both sonic and metaknight are going to die before they can KO their oponents.

trust me when I say sonic is in the bottom half of the character list. Meta knight is better than sonic, but still worse than most... Omni seems to be able to do well with metaknight, but even so,he doesn't win with him often when we play.

 

[Talvi]

Apparently, but WHAT IS IT?

As far as I know, a pro Jigglypuff player.

 

[dmbrandon]

both sonic and metaknight are SORELY lacking in the KOing department. Meta knight has at least some moves, but for the most part, both sonic and metaknight are going to die before they can KO their oponents.

trust me when I say sonic is in the bottom half of the character list. Meta knight is better than sonic, but still worse than most... Omni seems to be able to do well with metaknight, but even so,he doesn't win with him often when we play.

LOL@sonic part.