Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
cuz yoshi is balls, keep him in low tier so we can steal more lt prizes
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Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
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- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
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- 11,841
yoshi mains definitely deserve more It prizes
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
it says lt, or when you capitalize it, LT... >.>
I know some people
Not where I live
Depends on what your definition of "easy" is. Unless the match-up is an extreme one due to a chaingrab or a character being just flat-out horrible most match-ups are not "easy" if played properly. Diddy has a noticable advantage against Marth but that doesn't mean that Marth is "easy" for Diddy Kong.
I really doubt that any character truly has as "easy" time against Snake, Diddy Kong, Ice Climbers, Wario, Marth, Olimar or Pikachu either.
MK is a pretty hard MU for Wario. I don't have to look at Reflex vs M2K or Kaos vs Gluttony or set # 12 to determine that: hopefully you don't have to as well. I mean maybe this isn't the most obvious MU to figure out, but cmon. Huge sword, little lag, fat guy with no range who has to deal with idk how many different frame traps?
Idk if MK is his hardest matchup, but I do know that it's definitely not 5:5, 55:45, or probably even 6:4. 65:35 MK favor at this point isn't that unrealistic, and I hope people will stop being nice to MK and realize that to be true.
Idk if MK is his hardest matchup, but I do know that it's definitely not 5:5, 55:45, or probably even 6:4. 65:35 MK favor at this point isn't that unrealistic, and I hope people will stop being nice to MK and realize that to be true.
Sonic vs. Meta Knight is very, very bad.For a second there I thought you were talking about sonic
Maharba the Mystic
Smash Master
IS NO1 ELSE GONNA SAY ANYTHING?!
seriously start talking specific match ups or something people. this thread like died today.
i know, lets compare fox and wolf. compare their overall match ups along with tournament performance and how each one handles metaknight. then after ALL the facts are laid down, we can POLITELY DISCUSS who should be higher on the tier list.
i figure since these 2 keep coming up as rivals for being better (which is really funny because that means their goal is the same as in normal starfox games) this will attract attention.
ill throw out one good thing they each have on MK to start this.
while fox can't really stop nado, he can double stick di up and and hit mk out of nado with dair and punish hard from there. (any GOOD fox can do this CONSISTENTLY which is a big part of this match up)
wolf has a lazer that stops MKs nado from a distance, thus forcing mk to approach without the use of nado.
all peeps, discuss!
seriously start talking specific match ups or something people. this thread like died today.
i know, lets compare fox and wolf. compare their overall match ups along with tournament performance and how each one handles metaknight. then after ALL the facts are laid down, we can POLITELY DISCUSS who should be higher on the tier list.
i figure since these 2 keep coming up as rivals for being better (which is really funny because that means their goal is the same as in normal starfox games) this will attract attention.
ill throw out one good thing they each have on MK to start this.
while fox can't really stop nado, he can double stick di up and and hit mk out of nado with dair and punish hard from there. (any GOOD fox can do this CONSISTENTLY which is a big part of this match up)
wolf has a lazer that stops MKs nado from a distance, thus forcing mk to approach without the use of nado.
all peeps, discuss!
Conviction
Human Nature
...
Dealing with Tornado
MK is known to wreck quite a few characters simply by spamming tornado... and, while avoidable, generally, MK's that do spam tornado tend to still do pretty well in a tournament scene. Fox does not succumb to this at all, however. Fox has several options against the tornado:
Dair the center of the attack from the top, leading to every dair followup.
Nair the center of the attack from the top, offering a more lenient hitbox than Dair, allowing for better accuracy, while losing some followups
Shield the 'nado, then Usmash punish the ending lag - Very useful due to Fox's speed, and his fairly strong shield.
Shield-grab the 'nado
Other situational attacks, such as Fsmash, apparently.
While many characters have similar ways of punishing the tornado, not much characters rivals Fox in this way. Fox's SDI alows him to "pop" out of the tornado (much more easily than most of the cast, likely due to his light weight), directly above the center, and dair downward. This only depends on the timing of the SDI, and not on the spacing of the tornado... It varies on how high Fox will actually pop out.. there have been times that I will just seemingly dair right in the middle of the tornado, without seeming to pop out all that much at all... But again, this gives you a spacing directly above the center of the tornado, and only gets you about 2%. Video evidence of this (just in some really old matches of mine) is shown below.
The typed the relative time that escaping of tornado occurs... The first three are teams matches (first two, MK player is Rx-; 3rd, it is Danny...mislabeled video), and the next two are singles matches against Bonesaw..
Watch me at 3:07 and 4:40, and Olimar at 4:05 and 4:31
Watch me at 1:39, 1:52, 2:54, 3:48, 4:01, 4:25 (actually get out twice here...), and 5:20 ; Olimar at 2:45, 3:07, and 5:28
Olimar at 1:25
3:21 and 4:12!!!
2:08!!!, 2:32, 4:21, and 4:41
Keep in mind this is just showing the escaping of tornado on a pretty regular basis. It is possible to escape 100% of the time.
The Dair followup at the end does not always work WHEN THE MK HAS ESTABLISHED SIDEWAYS MOMENTUM. That is, he starts it far to your left, and continues through you until the right. If he tries to zone you, and turnaround (Starts from the left, goes to your shield, then tries to drift back left) the dair is nearly guaranteed UPON HIT by the tornado, since it puts you above the center before the MK has a chance to get away.
Therefore, upone hit by tornado, no Fox should take (most of the time) more than 5%, and should almost always have a good chance to punish it with a dair > whatever....possibly killing the MK.
This makes this move a very risky choice for MK, and one of his worst options in the match.
This is becoming my job
even though this is exactly from the MU thread....You can only sdi the first and last hit of Tornado. Getting out otherwise is due to other factors: character weight, where MK is positioned, what part of the tornado animation he is in, etc. Getting out of Tornado, besides the first hit, isn't something the person getting hit controls. Just clarifying that a bit.
Fox players laid a pretty solid argument against nado. I don't think it's entirely worthless, though. I can still see MK using nado in a way to give fox trouble only in specific situations.
Beating nado is more than just "X move tears through nado." If that's so, Ike must be beast vs nado since Ike can dair, bair, fair, nair, uair, ftilt, utilt, eruption, counter, aether, fsmash, usmash, (dtilt/dsmash if it actually touches nado) Aka almost everything.
It just sucks that we can't jab it which makes it horrible (not really, more like annoying) and it outpaces us so missing is dangerous some of the time. Ike neither does bad nor amazing vs nado btw.
Beating nado is more than just "X move tears through nado." If that's so, Ike must be beast vs nado since Ike can dair, bair, fair, nair, uair, ftilt, utilt, eruption, counter, aether, fsmash, usmash, (dtilt/dsmash if it actually touches nado) Aka almost everything.
It just sucks that we can't jab it which makes it horrible (not really, more like annoying) and it outpaces us so missing is dangerous some of the time. Ike neither does bad nor amazing vs nado btw.
Conviction
Human Nature
Thanks for clarifying.
Yeah the last sentence where it says "it being one of MK's worst options" is a bit over exaggerated. Just shows we could polish up the details some much, I see some errors and minor adjustments as I scan over it.
Browny
Smash Hater
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
Wolf can just shine, jumpshine, laser, nair or bair the top (Nair'ing the top leads to a free Dsmash when nado is nearer to the ground ) nado.
He can also DI to the middle of Nado and shine or airdodge out, but I usually just powershield nado on reaction and then punish with Dacus or Usmash (Depending on where Mk went).
) nado. He can also DI to the middle of Nado and shine or airdodge out, but I usually just powershield nado on reaction and then punish with Dacus or Usmash (Depending on where Mk went).
Browny
Smash Hater
^^
Until the mk moves the nado a little to the left/right. Srsly, that makes it inescapable right?
Also, I was expecting a parasolic shine bombing comment
Now watch as I trap people into namesearching this post because I mention pony
Until the mk moves the nado a little to the left/right. Srsly, that makes it inescapable right?
Also, I was expecting a parasolic shine bombing comment
Now watch as I trap people into namesearching this post because I mention pony
Maharba the Mystic
Smash Master
YES! VICTORY IS MINE!
i knew this would start a topic fire
i knew this would start a topic fire
Conviction
Human Nature
No...I only came to correct your misconception...
Maharba the Mystic
Smash Master
.... damn. well still at least i had something to read
I honestly have no idea, but, if people were able to SDI consistently similarly to Mr. Doom, how would it affect Fox's MUs ratios, if at all? It seems like losing the guaranteed kill out of a dair would hurt, a lot. Not to mention all the free damage they get from landing the dair outside the dair damage itself.
*Note- I don't mean SDI to the extent where Mr. Doom SDIed Diddy's jab half of Frigate. I'm more referring to his recent set vs Zeton where Zeton lost a lot of free damage off of normally simple follow-ups. SDI to that extent seems reasonable to expect.
*Note- I don't mean SDI to the extent where Mr. Doom SDIed Diddy's jab half of Frigate. I'm more referring to his recent set vs Zeton where Zeton lost a lot of free damage off of normally simple follow-ups. SDI to that extent seems reasonable to expect.
dainbramage
Smash Journeyman
Marhaba: fox doesn't get ***** by tornado
Iblis: hurr durr ur stupid lolz. This is how fox doesn't get ***** by tornado
???
Iblis: hurr durr ur stupid lolz. This is how fox doesn't get ***** by tornado
???
It would definitely affect Fox.
My observation is that the ideal means to deal with a tornado has 3 components: Being able to *practically* beat it on contact; being able to punish a blocked, retreating Tornado; and being able to evade it as a juggle tool. Is this agreeable? I don't think I'm missing anything and with that in mind it's understandable that Ike will have issue here.
To connect this with Maharba's topic I think this explains why Fox and Wolf are among the best characters to deal with MK's Tornado. Not only do they have moves that beat the Tornado on contact reliably but they are also very practical to use. Fox running away from it and shooting lasers or hitting it with dair or nair from the top isn't a lot different from how he plays his "safe" game in general. The same is true for Wolf being able to beat it with Shine, Laser, bair and nair at the top [or dsmash if the Tornado is fully grounded].
Being able to punish it on block is probably the part where characters like DK, DDD, Ganon and other characters are shut down the most - slow dash, no useful DACUS and no useful / long reaching Dash attack. Does Ike fit this description? Maybe his Dash attack works? In either case this is where Fox and Wolf shine [no pun intended]. Both characters are able to chase a retreating Tornado more than halfway across the "neutral" stages via Dash Usmash and DACUS. Watch these videos examples for reference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWnSweQB1SI // 1:12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMOXaoKrYtQ // 3:00
19% and incredible KO power in Fox' case and 18% and a set-up for a deadly fair in Wolf's case are pretty harsh punishment for doing something that's not typically punished that badly in most other match-ups [although ~15% from a Marth Dancing Blade isn't shabby either].
Finally, if we look at the tornado as a tool to catch airdodges aka juggle trap opponents again MK will find it hard to catch Fox when he can just outstall it with Shine. Even from midair his dair still comboes into plenty of grounded moves except that it's even harder [maybe impossible?] for MK to DI out of the follow-up. Wolf can shine the tornado from above, he can pivot blaster to outmove it with his supreme air speed [and by turning your back to MK you can also just beat it with bair again] and as Seagull correctly noted you can also nair the top and combo it into dsmash [if you're a bit closer to the ground]. These are all risky trades for trying to connect the Tornado.
Fox and Wolf can adequately deal with MK's Tornado in all situations but they aren't the only characters to do so. I think Marth and Falco [plus Diddy Kong, if MK doesn't steal his banana] are also among these characters and I can see all 4 of them [Diddy is probably not among them] being "officially" even with MK in the future metagame [ignoring the fact that they are probably all even or better based on tournament statistics already].
what top MK's are losing to wolf's? I can see how you could make a case for fox or diddy atm, I don't really know about wolf's results though
Holms beat D0j0 in Whobo pools and AC has beaten TKD's MK as well. K@in has beaten At0msk's I think but if you don't wanna count him as "top level" MK I guess I can't argue that. [Keep in mind though that no Wolf player has reached "top level" yet and Seagull / Kain still beat like every MK not named M2K or @lly or others a level above them.]
Edit: And I'm not even make a case for Diddy 0_o
Watch Mr. Doom vs Zeton.
It doesn't really affect him as much as you'd think it would.
smashkng
Smash Lord
It does definitely do affect the Fox MU. It makes comboing Dair for an Usmash much harder, removing a deadly kill set-up. SDI also complicates the Utilt set-up from Dair, making it harder for Fox to set-up a juggle.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
The move it affects the most is fair. If you're expecting SDI on dair you can still follow-up. If you aren't, then it becomes a little harder, but why wouldn't you expect SDI if your opponent appears to be good at SDI?
Asking if SDI would "affect" Fox is misleading, since SDI affects every character. Hell, using SDI properly against MK's uair causes you to practically teleport across the screen, which you can't say about any of Fox's multi-hit attacks.
Asking if SDI would "affect" Fox is misleading, since SDI affects every character. Hell, using SDI properly against MK's uair causes you to practically teleport across the screen, which you can't say about any of Fox's multi-hit attacks.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
The only Metaknight's I've lost to in the past year are one who taught me Mk vs Wolf .which is Omni, M2k, Ally (In a MM), and Pwii (1-2 in Pound 5 pools, I lost round 1, which meant I got hard cp'd on Brinstar game 3 lol).Holms beat D0j0 in Whobo pools and AC has beaten TKD's MK as well. K@in has beaten At0msk's I think but if you don't wanna count him as "top level" MK I guess I can't argue that. [Keep in mind though that no Wolf player has reached "top level" yet and Seagull / Kain still beat like every MK not named M2K or @lly or others a level above them.]
Edit: And I'm not even make a case for Diddy 0_o
Mr. Doom has inhuman SDI and I still don't understand how he does itThe move it affects the most is fair. If you're expecting SDI on dair you can still follow-up. If you aren't, then it becomes a little harder, but why wouldn't you expect SDI if your opponent appears to be good at SDI?
Asking if SDI would "affect" Fox is misleading, since SDI affects every character. Hell, using SDI properly against MK's uair causes you to practically teleport across the screen, which you can't say about any of Fox's multi-hit attacks.
.
John12346
Smash Master
I have inhuman SDI too...
I SDI'd a fully charged Marth Usmash from the edge of Smashville all the way over to the center of Smashville once.
I SDI'd a fully charged Marth Usmash from the edge of Smashville all the way over to the center of Smashville once.
Marth U-Smash has cinematic hitlag.
Maharba the Mystic
Smash Master
you did it once. that's not inhuman.
mr. doom does that **** consistent. that is inhuman
mr. doom does that **** consistent. that is inhuman
Pikabunz
Smash Hero
Cinematic hitlag?
Kinzer
Mammy
Actually, Marth U-Smash has a ridiculously high amount of hitlag; as in, you have all the time in the world to SDI it.
I just meant that it takes forever to actually send someone anywhere.
I just meant that it takes forever to actually send someone anywhere.
Pikabunz
Smash Hero
Wait, so it a 0 SDI multiplier or Hitlag with a high multiplier? Why are we even naming certain multipliers?
It's not a specific name. I said it to be funny. It takes soooo long to actually get to the knockback part. : |
Krystedez
Awaken the Path
It's marvel vs capcom 3 cinematic, as in it catches one opponent, they're immobile, and it's just straight 2 seconds of watching it happen!
Mr. Doom
Smash Hero
Why are you guys so enamored by my SDI? Do I have to put up a video so that you guys can suck with SDI as well?
BTW, SDI > multi-hit moves in general.
BTW, SDI > multi-hit moves in general.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
lol people were probably watching this video when they were saying that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB1kaL01_cw
Which btw, is "false cinematic hitlag"
John12346
Smash Master
Bah, I know one time doesn't constitute as anything evidence-wise. >.<;
And yes Mr. Doom, a vid on how to SDI like a maniac consistently would be awesome.
And yes Mr. Doom, a vid on how to SDI like a maniac consistently would be awesome.
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