Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Nidtendofreak]

Nope.

Just the general public knows better than you do, because you're too busy fanboying over him and thinking you know more than the people who have been here for years.

D3 is not great. Not terrible, but not great. He's on the high end of average/low end of good for the reasons everybody has been pounding into your head but you flat out refuse to accept, even though they are correct. Even your fellow D3 mains think you're embarrassing based on the occasional comment I see from them around here.

 

[infiniteV115]

LOL! You think D3 is weak in the air? Are you serious? D3 has like one of the best air games ever along with Game and Watch and Wario.

You vastly overrate King Dedede's air game. I don't even think I'd put it in top 10.
His bair is good, I'll admit. Not fantastic, but moderately good. The other 4 are meh or worse. Coupled with his ****ty mobility, his air game is not that far above average.

D3 is pretty slow, but he's not that slow to compete.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244329
Walk top speed - 25th/38
Dash top speed - 22nd/38 (tied with 5 others)
Running top speed - 36th/38 (tied with Zelda)
Aerial mobility - 31st/38 (tied with 4 others)
Max air speed - 38th/38 (tied with nobody. Literally half of Yoshi's max airspeed)
Only thing fast about Dedede with regards to movement are his fall(regular and fastfall) top speeds. He's pretty damn slow dude.

Something like ZSS moving above D3 makes sense since ZSS seems to have more to her than D3, but D3 can go above Lucario and maybe Pika. I think he's pretty fine where he is at this point. A great character, but with a few major flaws that prevent him from being a top character.

Pika definitely deserves to be above Lucario, ZSS and Dedede. I don't think ZSS deserves to be above Lucario, and if she does it's not by much. I'd put them as tied, and both above Dedede.
I'd also put Dedede in the top of mid-tier, putting him under G&W, TL and Fox.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Eh, personally I'd have the bottom three of high tier be Toon Link, G&W, and D3 in a MK banned environment. Fox and Wolf I have no clue and would have to see how they actually do with MK gone. My early bet would be Wolf > Fox though for the top area of Mid Tier.

 

[Chuee]

Does anybody have top/high lucas sets they could recommend me? I'm pretty sure he has a crippling weakness nobody takes advantage of (no, I'm not talking about grab release) but I'd like to confirm with actual matches first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWY32bpODVM vs Malcom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uad1ot_Unk vs P1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN71Yv3RxR4&feature=related vs P1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJiDWyiBgww vs KT

 

[Flayl]

Well so far I can see that it comes into play less than I thought it would so it's not crippling. I think it's still pretty useful though.

Anyone that's going to MM a Lucas want to PM me and give your thoughts?

 

[Chuee]

Well so far I can see that it comes into play less than I thought it would so it's not crippling. I think it's still pretty useful though.

Anyone that's going to MM a Lucas want to PM me and give your thoughts?

PM me it.
I'm MMing Lucas' all over town.

 

[Doc King]

Nope.

Just the general public knows better than you do, because you're too busy fanboying over him and thinking you know more than the people who have been here for years.

D3 is not great. Not terrible, but not great. He's on the high end of average/low end of good for the reasons everybody has been pounding into your head but you flat out refuse to accept, even though they are correct. Even your fellow D3 mains think you're embarrassing based on the occasional comment I see from them around here.

Why would he all of a sudden become middle tier? Did anything happen to make him so bad now? He's still a good character. Something to add is when ppl learn how to DI and ppl can read off of techs better, D3 will actually get better since you can't DI out of his D throw, while other things like Snake's nair and Peach's dair can be DIed.

You vastly overrate King Dedede's air game. I don't even think I'd put it in top 10.
His bair is good, I'll admit. Not fantastic, but moderately good. The other 4 are meh or worse. Coupled with his ****ty mobility, his air game is not that far above average.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244329
Walk top speed - 25th/38
Dash top speed - 22nd/38 (tied with 5 others)
Running top speed - 36th/38 (tied with Zelda)
Aerial mobility - 31st/38 (tied with 4 others)
Max air speed - 38th/38 (tied with nobody. Literally half of Yoshi's max airspeed)
Only thing fast about Dedede with regards to movement are his fall(regular and fastfall) top speeds. He's pretty damn slow dude.


Pika definitely deserves to be above Lucario, ZSS and Dedede. I don't think ZSS deserves to be above Lucario, and if she does it's not by much. I'd put them as tied, and both above Dedede.
I'd also put Dedede in the top of mid-tier, putting him under G&W, TL and Fox.

NO WAY! Game and Watch has only been getting worse. Ppl have been learning how to beat this character. Toon Link doesn't have much outside of his camping and spamming crap. Fox gets locked way too much by Pikachu and Sheik to be even considered close to beating D3. Lucario is pretty slow and can't really do much. Pikachu still looks like a top tier character because of his chaingrabs.

 

[Chuee]

Why would he all of a sudden become middle tier? Did anything happen to make him so bad now? He's still a good character. Something to add is when ppl learn how to DI and ppl can read off of techs better, D3 will actually get better since you can't DI out of his D throw, while other things like Snake's nair and Peach's dair can be DIed.

NO WAY! Game and Watch has only been getting worse. Ppl have been learning how to beat this character. Toon Link doesn't have much outside of his camping and spamming crap. Fox gets locked way too much by Pikachu and Sheik to be even considered close to beating D3. Lucario is pretty slow and can't really do much. Pikachu still looks like a top tier character because of his chaingrabs.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

*facepalm*

I'm just about ready to add Doc King to the same ignore list as Jebus. "D3 isn't getting worse, but G&W sure is!"

They're going down at the same rate, except G&W is a tad better than D3 for the exact same reasons you've talked about G&W going down. People have learned the D3 MU. Heck, look at Ike vs D3 for example. Used to be 30-70 without a doubt when looking at it from Ike's perspective. Now it's possibly 40:60, depending on who you ask.

Heck, that whole last paragraph from you was just painful. Toon Link "apparently" doesn't have much outside of his camping and spamming, yet D3 is apparently just so amazing outside of his CG game eh? This is of course, ignoring the fact you've tried so hard to claim D3's camping game with with his Waddle Dee toss is so much better than it actually is. Fox gets locked by Pikachu and Sheik, yet D3 doesn't get locked by his nearly as bad of MUs? Lucario is slow compared to D3? And then you had the gall to claim that Pikachu's CGs is the only thing keeping him up there, but not D3's.

Seriously dude: just...stop already. I'm just going to flat out say it. You're stupid. Never mind what I said before, you are are the same level as Jebus.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

LOL! You think D3 is weak in the air? Are you serious?

This is why you are bad and will probably stay bad for the foreseeable future. Refusing to acknowledge the weaknesses of your character means you'll never learn to work around them.


Also Nidtendo, the only MUs we have on the same level of bad as Fox vs Pika is Icies and MK.

Completely ignoring Doc King, what are people's reasonings for Dedede to move up, specifically MU-wise and tournament results-wise. I'll do my best to discuss things without doing a Doc King.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So, 2 for Fox, 2 for D3.

I'd say my point very much stands, though I didn't want to assume the amount D3 has that's in the same range. Hence my wording in that part.

 

[Anthon1996]

You see Doc King, the only real way you can back up whatever it is you're saying is by actually placing high at a tourney. An offline tourney. With Dedede. He's so amazing, so that shouldn't be too difficult, right?

 

[Doc King]

*facepalm*

I'm just about ready to add Doc King to the same ignore list as Jebus. "D3 isn't getting worse, but G&W sure is!"

They're going down at the same rate, except G&W is a tad better than D3 for the exact same reasons you've talked about G&W going down. People have learned the D3 MU. Heck, look at Ike vs D3 for example. Used to be 30-70 without a doubt when looking at it from Ike's perspective. Now it's possibly 40:60, depending on who you ask.

Heck, that whole last paragraph from you was just painful. Toon Link "apparently" doesn't have much outside of his camping and spamming, yet D3 is apparently just so amazing outside of his CG game eh? This is of course, ignoring the fact you've tried so hard to claim D3's camping game with with his Waddle Dee toss is so much better than it actually is. Fox gets locked by Pikachu and Sheik, yet D3 doesn't get locked by his nearly as bad of MUs? Lucario is slow compared to D3? And then you had the gall to claim that Pikachu's CGs is the only thing keeping him up there, but not D3's.

Seriously dude: just...stop already. I'm just going to flat out say it. You're stupid. Never mind what I said before, you are are the same level as Jebus.

Well D3 has been getting better at some matchups. I've actually been learning how to tech chase against those lightweights. Apparently, Jigglypuff can't DI at all out of D3's down throw, which makes it much easier for D3 to tech chase, combo, and trap puff. You can also use Zss's suit pieces as a trap when tech chasing Zss. Wario got a slope infinite which made D3's cp system pretty good, along with some other characters like Lucario and Ganon. I've also been learning how to stale move negate with those waddle dee's.

 

[-LzR-]

Doc King is the reason to read Smashboards guys.

 

[Steam]

lol doc king, without D3's CG's he's a borderline low tier character. that and Bair is pretty much all he has going for him... though the threat of the CG makes D3 Bair so much more effective... I hope you realize D3 is an extremely gimmicky character lmao.

also yeah lucario is relatively slow, but he has mixups out the *** and can punish characters hard. and he also has large, meaty, disjointed hitboxes. also D3 is probably the slowest character in the entire game.

 

[Mr. Doom]

Apparently, Jigglypuff can't DI at all out of D3's down throw, which makes it much easier for D3 to tech chase, combo, and trap puff.

Jiggs can't DI out of D3's d-throw? I need video proof for that.

 

[Doc King]

You see Doc King, the only real way you can back up whatever it is you're saying is by actually placing high at a tourney. An offline tourney. With Dedede. He's so amazing, so that shouldn't be too difficult, right?

That's a big way to rise someone on a tier list. I think me performing pretty well in an online is probably a start towards D3 actually moving up in tourney and me doing some stuff like tech chasing to get through D3's bad matchups.

lol doc king, without D3's CG's he's a borderline low tier character. that and Bair is pretty much all he has going for him... though the threat of the CG makes D3 so much more effective... I hope you realize D3 is an extremely gimmicky character lmao.

also yeah lucario is relatively slow, but he has mixups out the *** and can punish characters hard. and he also has large, meaty, disjointed hitboxes. also D3 is probably the slowest character in the entire game.

Without his chaingrab, King Dedede looks like in the middle part of middle tier. Also don't compare characters without certain moves since it's irrelevant towards the metagame. Like imo, Pikachu is a more gimmicky character with his chaingrabs and wouldn't be top tier without his chaingrabs, nor high tier.

Jiggs can't DI out of D3's d-throw? I need video proof for that.

Just go to training mode and try to move the controller stick in any direction. Puff can't DI out of it.

 

[Clel]

I feel weird about this but I have to agree with Doc King in that Dedede shouldn't be moving down, I disagree about his air game weakness which is horrid. But D3 is a solid character who doesn't take much time to get good with and he does well against some higher tiers.

 

[-LzR-]

Way to go Doc King! Rep that D3! Show us what you got. Dedede for toptier.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Well D3 has been getting better at some matchups. Possible, but so is everyone else. Kinda how the metagame works. I've actually been learning how to tech chase against those lightweights. Good for you. Means nothing for D3. Apparently, Jigglypuff can't DI at all out of D3's down throw, which makes it much easier for D3 to tech chase, combo, and trap puff. You're implying that Jigglypuff is a critical MU to learn. Also, you can't DI throws until you're put into a tumble state by them. You can also use Zss's suit pieces as a trap when tech chasing Zss. Everyone can use them against ZSS to some degree. This means nothing. Wario got a slope infinite which made D3's cp system pretty good, along with some other characters like Lucario and Ganon. Until you've shown some HIGH TO TOP level players landing this against other HIGH TO TOP level players, this means nothing. It's about as useful as the cape tricks that Mario has but are basically never used. Also, you're implying Ganondorf is a critical MU to have this for. I've also been learning how to stale move negate with those waddle dee's. That's basic and not changing anything for D3.

You really aren't getting the picture, are you?

Also: online results are 100% irrelevant to the tier list, stop even mentioning them. Online is its own metagame. If you have to mention online in your argument, you have no argument.

 

[Mr. Doom]

Just go to training mode and try to move the controller stick in any direction. Puff can't DI out of it.

Easier said than done, when one doesn't even have a copy of that game. >(

 

[-LzR-]

I'm pretty sure Puff can just rest out of the dthrow gimmicks or other bull****. Puff ftw! D3 sucks.

 

[Anthon1996]

I ***** a Fox and Pika online with Mario on the AiB ladder, but that's only because I abused the **** out of the lag (or so my opponent said). Does this automatically mean I'm godlike? Hell no. Look at what Nidtendo Freak said.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

lol doc king, without D3's CG's he's a borderline low tier character. that and Bair is pretty much all he has going for him... though the threat of the CG makes D3 so much more effective... I hope you realize D3 is an extremely gimmicky character lmao.

I'd argue this personally. Outside of the CG, we have quite a few options. FTilt is one of the best spacing moves in the game, we still have a BThrow that does 16%, our DThrow is a strong techchase (since the CG only exists because you can't DI nontumble knockback), we have an UTilt that can cut through quite a lot, can juggle, and is pretty strong, a dash attack which is a godly punisher, a fairly potent DAir when we're not trying to land with it that autocancels, an UAir which can do decent amounts of damage, a FAir that at low %s combos into pretty dirty things, a NAir that beats numerous projectiles, a BAir that is a kill move, gimping tool, and spacing move all in one, a DTilt which is ungodly at edgeguarding, 2 fully usable smashes with great range, one of the strongest FSmashes in the game, etc.

We'd probably be solidly mid-tier. Not upper mid-tier mind you, probably near where Pit and such are currently hanging out.

imo, MU ratios that would change significantly without the CG would be:

(note I'm not referring to the MU chart, it being a joke and all)

Donkey Kong, from +4 to 0.
Luigi, from +3 to +1.
Snake, from 0 to -1
Mario, from +4 to +2.
Most low tiers actually, from varying degrees of +3/+4 to varying degrees of +2/+3.
Peach, from +3 to +1.
Lucario, from +3 to +1.


I'd go on but feeling lazy, and undoubtedly Doc King has posted again while I was typing this, so I need to yell at him again.



Also Jiggz can DI Dedede DThrow, lol. Any of the unchainable 12 can DI it, because they go into tumble.

 

[Steam]

Without his chaingrab, King Dedede looks like in the middle part of middle tier. Also don't compare characters without certain moves since it's irrelevant towards the metagame. Like imo, Pikachu is a more gimmicky character with his chaingrabs and wouldn't be top tier without his chaingrabs, nor high tier.

can't speak for pikachu, but isn't zelda the only character he beats that he can't CG? without it most of his good matchups would go to even or a disadvantage... doesn't sound very mid tier to me.

I dunno, you act like all the characters around D3 are so one dimensional while acting like there's anything special about D3 himself.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ya, D3 does have stuff outside of his CG and Bair. Not much, but he does. Ftilt in particular. Honestly, in an odd way I don't think it gets used enough. I would abuse the crap out of that and Dair whenever possible.

 

[Clel]

So why would the majority feel that D3 should be lower on the tier list?

 

[Laem]

As long as d3 will never be allowed in mid tiers 's all fine by me.

itt though: Supreme Dirt thinks d3 beats peach +3. Where da peaches at?
Imo, his CG is overrated: use the chain once, excellent. After that, as much damage as a backthrow usually, lol.
D3 as a lowtier is just redeceles.

 

[Steam]

lmao SD D3 does not have a +3 matchup with Lucario right now. It's +2 or maybe even +1 tbh since no D3s use Dthrow to upsmash. and without a CG it's even at worst for lucario.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Let's all stop responding to Doc King and hope that once he posts again he'll be less of a complete idiot.

 

[-LzR-]

Sorry that doesn't work.

 

[Doc King]

I'm pretty sure Puff can just rest out of the dthrow gimmicks or other bull****. Puff ftw! D3 sucks.

Lol if you do then D3 can pull out a very strong f smash and you will die.

I ***** a Fox and Pika online with Mario on the AiB ladder, but that's only because I abused the **** out of the lag (or so my opponent said). Does this automatically mean I'm godlike? Hell no. Look at what Nidtendo Freak said.

Online isn't completely different from offline, but there is one notable difference which is wifi lag that sometimes really affects matchups or doesn't matter at all.

I'd argue this personally. Outside of the CG, we have quite a few options. FTilt is one of the best spacing moves in the game, we still have a BThrow that does 16%, our DThrow is a strong techchase (since the CG only exists because you can't DI nontumble knockback), we have an UTilt that can cut through quite a lot, can juggle, and is pretty strong, a dash attack which is a godly punisher, a fairly potent DAir when we're not trying to land with it that autocancels, an UAir which can do decent amounts of damage, a FAir that at low %s combos into pretty dirty things, a NAir that beats numerous projectiles, a BAir that is a kill move, gimping tool, and spacing move all in one, a DTilt which is ungodly at edgeguarding, 2 fully usable smashes with great range, one of the strongest FSmashes in the game, etc.

We'd probably be solidly mid-tier. Not upper mid-tier mind you, probably near where Pit and such are currently hanging out.

imo, MU ratios that would change significantly without the CG would be:

(note I'm not referring to the MU chart, it being a joke and all)

Donkey Kong, from +4 to 0.
Luigi, from +3 to +1.
Snake, from 0 to -1
Mario, from +4 to +2.
Most low tiers actually, from varying degrees of +3/+4 to varying degrees of +2/+3.
Peach, from +3 to +1.
Lucario, from +3 to +1.


I'd go on but feeling lazy, and undoubtedly Doc King has posted again while I was typing this, so I need to yell at him again.



Also Jiggz can DI Dedede DThrow, lol. Any of the unchainable 12 can DI it, because they go into tumble.

Puff can't DI out of D3's down throw. Did you try DIing out of D3's down throw before?

can't speak for pikachu, but isn't zelda the only character he beats that he can't CG? without it most of his good matchups would go to even or a disadvantage... doesn't sound very mid tier to me.

I dunno, you act like all the characters around D3 are so one dimensional while acting like there's anything special about D3 himself.

D3 beats Puff +3, Zelda +2, and Squirtle, Sheik, and Sheilda +1

 

[-LzR-]

Where do you get the Puff ****? You have never faced a good Puff and you never will kthxbye.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I like how Doc King has been ignoring the last two posts I made that were intended to counter his.

I win it would seem. Nice to know we're now all in agreement about the bottom of high tier/top of mid tier range for D3. Next topic please.

 

[Steam]

Online isn't completely different from offline, but there is one notable difference which is wifi lag that sometimes really affects matchups or doesn't matter at all.

D3 beats Puff +3, Zelda +2, and Squirtle, Sheik, and Sheilda +1

being a person that played wifi for a long period of time before I went offline to play in real tournies, I can safely say that wifi is an absolute joke.

so, D3 beats low tiers, and squirtle and sheik by a small ammount. buuut he gets trashed by the good characters that he can't CG, and without the CG would get trashed by even MORE of them, not to mention lose all his good high/top tier MUs.

 

[Mr. Doom]

9B's D3 seems to go in all the way, though. >_>

 

[Doc King]

lmao SD D3 does not have a +3 matchup with Lucario right now. It's +2 or maybe even +1 tbh since no D3s use Dthrow to upsmash. and without a CG it's even at worst for lucario.

I use d throw to up smash all of the time. Without chaingrab the matchup is +1 since Bair and d throw to up smash still beast on Lucario. With it the matchup is a +2.

Where do you get the Puff ****? You have never faced a good Puff and you never will kthxbye.

D3 always ***** puff.

I will never face a good puff because there's no such thing as a good puff because he sucks.

being a person that played wifi for a long period of time before I went offline to play in real tournies, I can safely say that wifi is an absolute joke.

so, D3 beats low tiers, and squirtle and sheik by a small ammount. buuut he gets trashed by the good characters that he can't CG, and without the CG would get trashed by even MORE of them, not to mention lose all his good high/top tier MUs.

Well I can't really tell the difference between online and offline cause I've never pkayed offline, but the only thing I gotta say is that ppl like Salem have actually done well and they've been wifi players.

Also D3 doesn't get trashed by Game and Watch. That matchup is even. Also stop comparing D3 without a chaingrab. It's irrelevant to the current metagame and you've ignored that statement.

 

[-LzR-]

Puffs dair ***** Dedede. It hits him and combos into RCO slope rest. The slope rest cancels all the lag and Dedede dies because he is so big.
No matter what you say from now on is invalid because I win.

 

[Steam]

I use d throw to up smash all of the time. Without chaingrab the matchup is +1 since Bair and d throw to up smash still beast on Lucario. With it the matchup is a +2.

you use Dthrow to upsmash all the time? cool. go land it on trela or junebug and show us all how bad that matchup is.

and half the reason bair is so good against lucario is because the CG puts him offstage where D3 can bair the **** out of his recovery.

and the only reason I'm going on about D3 without a CG is because you make out every other character to be so one dimensional and simple to solve when D3 is one of the most basic characters himself :|

 

[Anthon1996]

Well I can't really tell the difference between online and offline cause I've never pkayed offline

My forehead hurts. From how hard I facepalmed of course.