Official BBR Tier List v5

[Nestec]

TBH, at the least, I'd put Sonic where Tink is now on the list if it was updated now. Before you say I'm ******** or something, pay attention to what is actually happening in tournaments right now, and don't let your (most likely WRONG)analysis of Sonic tell you he's still almost low tier.

Stop right there buddy, top of C Tier is somewhat pushing it.

I feel like a jump like that would have to be based on tournament results alone. And we ALL know that ain't right.

:green:

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Stop right there buddy, top of C Tier is somewhat pushing it.

I feel like a jump like that would have to be based on tournament results alone. And we ALL know that ain't right.

:green:

Uh, it's exactly right. What evidence do you present that is of greater significance than Sonic's extremely impressive results other than your vague notions of Sonic's quality of a character likely originating in ignorance anyway?

"But his tools!" ...are apparently enough to have two Sonics place top 8 at MLG beating Meta Knight like 9 times along the way. I'm not sure what else you need. I don't think your impression of Sonic as a character really matters at this point nor can we reasonably expect it to change.

This isn't a results-based tier list but results help to validate or invalidate our expectations and conceptions. Sonic's results invalidate your conception, period.

It doesn't matter how bad you think Sonic is if there are like 3 Sonic players with amazing results. Sonic's results are indicative of high tier results.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I find it odd how pokemon trainer has one kick arse player. Then a common retort is that this reflex that is a kick arse player, not the character. Now, you the situation with sonic where he might be a horrible character, but since we have 3 (using SMP's statement) sonics that do well, this warrants a rise in sonic.

If PT was in the same situation as sonic, would that warrant a rise?

 

[-LzR-]

No because people are biased and stuff, no matter how well Reflex places, they still keep saying PT sucks and lacks results and that Reflex won because they didn't win the MU. Welcome to Brawl :D

 

[Browny]

Don't forget the part where its about WHO they beat that matters, not a simple X / Y entrants ratio lol.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

No because people are biased and stuff, no matter how well Reflex places, they still keep saying PT sucks and lacks results and that Reflex won because they didn't win the MU. Welcome to Brawl :D

Just like how DEHF does against MKs, it'll take more than just Reflex to prove PT is a good character. I think he's a decent one, but player doing very well w/ him doesn't give enough data.

 

[Yikarur]

Yeah he got shut down at NORFAIR and the last match wasn't that bad (last stock low-mid % iirc), but there was no LGL so M2K could plank forever and Coney couldn't do anything about it.

lol USA too good.

 

[Tesh]

I think Coney would have won 2-1 at any other tournament with a more reasonable ruleset and stagelist. Considering most tournament DO have a more reasonable ruleset and stagelist, it does say something about DDD.

I think Sonic belongs higher, but still in mid tier. I could see him moving up to high tier until people really understand the character better.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Everything in that post was a lie brownny

Sonic is has several bad match ups people do not exploit, he isn't very good. I have not seen posts of people who ACTUALLY performed well with him telling me he deserves a significant raise.

And marth mains don't main marth we main metaknight get it right

 

[Tesh]

Alot of characters have bad matchups that people don't exploit. Most people aren't good enough with a character that soft/hard counters Sonic. Just like if you run into DEHF or TKD, your pikachu might not be good enough to exploit the bad matchup.

Look how well Kain did before facing a good DDD. There aren't very many matchups in this game where bad players beat good one.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

If PT was in the same situation as sonic, would that warrant a rise?

Yes?

But PT isn't in nearly the same situation... at all.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

No Pokémon Trainer player has done better than 25th at MLG.

Sonic's clearly doing work, and that's obviously at more than just MLG, but to do so well against so many high-level players at MLG alone speaks volumes about the character in our current metagame.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Sonic is has several bad match ups people do not exploit, he isn't very good. I have not seen posts of people who ACTUALLY performed well with him telling me he deserves a significant raise.

I say it, but lets just a omit me from this picture because Im not in the situation that allows me to frequently attend tournaments.

But we have 3 sonic players that are performing above average.

X. Who is for the most part, too poor to afford internet and even if he did, doesnt post on smashboards but like once every other month and is too goofy of a character to have a serious discussion of something like this anyway.

Speed. Who is so emo about his level of play and character to the point that he puts him at a negative matchup with just about every character in the game (honestly, I might pay you if you could get him to say that sonic wins any matchup in this game, even ganon). If that kid had his way, sonic would still be 5th worst in the game.

and Espy. Who hasnt posted here in a while due to being preoccupied with BR matters. But if he did, he would definitely say that sonic deserves a raise in standing. Last I heard, he would probably put sonic around 2-5 spots up from where he is now.

But this is all besides the point, why do you need the people that are actually doing amazing things with the character to TELL YOU that their character is good, you should be able to just realise it when you actually watch them play. Or better yet, play them. If Mew2King said that Meta was mid tier, why would that matter? You can look at what hes doing and tell that hes playing a borderline broken character.

 

[Espy Rose]

@Blacknight: Sonic deserves a rise in standing. Somewhere around 2 to 5 spots.

I'm thinking mid, mid-high C Tier.

 

[BSP]

Stop right there buddy, top of C Tier is somewhat pushing it.

I feel like a jump like that would have to be based on tournament results alone. And we ALL know that ain't right.

:green:

First, what SFP said.

Second, fine, top might be pushing it a tiny bit. But I doubt Sonic is that worse than Kirby, Fox, ROB, Pit, Peach, DK, Luigi, Wolf, and Zelda/Sheik, at least when looking at tournament performance. I know tools make a diff, but I'm not going to say I know one characters' are better than anothers', because, like most of you, I don't know.

What has Fox done that Sonic hasn't? Or Pit? Or ROB?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sonic and Fox are about the same in my eyes, actually. I think Fox is ultimately a lot better and a lot worse simultaneously; the ability to kill at 90% with even a decent read, safe attacks on shield and a solid camping game make him a very strong character, but the lack of national-level results and his "bad" match-ups do hurt a little bit.

 

[Chuee]

What has Fox done that Sonic hasn't?

Won a tourney

 

[Savon]

Sonic and Fox are about the same in my eyes, actually. I think Fox is ultimately a lot better and a lot worse simultaneously; the ability to kill at 90% with even a decent read, safe attacks on shield and a solid camping game make him a very strong character, but the lack of national-level results and his "bad" match-ups do hurt a little bit.

Most of his legitimately bad MUs are due to infinites and such. I think Fox is WAY better than Sonic, but on the flip side Sonic is still better than a lot of people want to admit.

 

[Espy Rose]

Most of his legitimately bad MUs are due to infinites and such. I think Fox is WAY better than Sonic, but on the flip side Sonic is still better than a lot of people want to admit.

The circumstances of why a bad match up is a bad match up is irrelevant. The fact that they exist, and hinder Fox, is much more important. Sonic has plenty of bad match ups, but most of them, like Fox's, get filtered out by Meta Knights and Snakes, or other top tiers who happen to get filtered out by Meta Knights and Snakes.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I say it, but lets just a omit me from this picture because Im not in the situation that allows me to frequently attend tournaments.

But we have 3 sonic players that are performing above average.

X. Who is for the most part, too poor to afford internet and even if he did, doesnt post on smashboards but like once every other month and is too goofy of a character to have a serious discussion of something like this anyway.

Speed. Who is so emo about his level of play and character to the point that he puts him at a negative matchup with just about every character in the game (honestly, I might pay you if you could get him to say that sonic wins any matchup in this game, even ganon). If that kid had his way, sonic would still be 5th worst in the game.

and Espy. Who hasnt posted here in a while due to being preoccupied with BR matters. But if he did, he would definitely say that sonic deserves a raise in standing. Last I heard, he would probably put sonic around 2-5 spots up from where he is now.

But this is all besides the point, why do you need the people that are actually doing amazing things with the character to TELL YOU that their character is good, you should be able to just realise it when you actually watch them play. Or better yet, play them. If Mew2King said that Meta was mid tier, why would that matter? You can look at what hes doing and tell that hes playing a borderline broken character.

X thinks sonic goes even with MK lol

 

[Orion*]

LOLLLLLLLLLL

Typical marth main. Who cares about results and evidence when I have conjecture and 08 theorycraft to back me up!

2011 and people still spout this absolute ****ing garbage about the game. goddam

you arent much better bro LOL

Wolf is nothing but gimmicks. Atomsk died to the most gimmicky Wolf gimmick game 3.

i hope youre trolling

Nope, Dedede is mid tier. Sorry He'd have been mid tier even if he won the whole tournament, honestly.

ddd seems much better at bottom of B ._.

Sonic and Fox are about the same in my eyes, actually.

i stopped reading... seriously. the fact that... that even came from you disturbs me LOL.

LOOK AT THEIR TOOLS. LOOK AT THEM!!!!

AUGHADSJGIHASNIHJDSKNGJ

 

[Goldenadept]

Wolf is nothing but gimmicks. Atomsk died to the most gimmicky Wolf gimmick game 3.

this gave me a good chuckle lol

outside of a random side B spike or KO what is gimmicky about wolf?

 

[Steam]

maybe we should do what other games do and not order people within tiers. that would make things hella easier

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

i stopped reading... seriously. the fact that... that even came from you disturbs me LOL.

LOOK AT THEIR TOOLS. LOOK AT THEM!!!!

AUGHADSJGIHASNIHJDSKNGJ

If you read the rest you'd understand!

 

[Nestec]

Uh, it's exactly right. What evidence do you present that is of greater significance than Sonic's extremely impressive results other than your vague notions of Sonic's quality of a character likely originating in ignorance anyway?

"But his tools!" ...are apparently enough to have two Sonics place top 8 at MLG beating Meta Knight like 9 times along the way. I'm not sure what else you need. I don't think your impression of Sonic as a character really matters at this point nor can we reasonably expect it to change.

This isn't a results-based tier list but results help to validate or invalidate our expectations and conceptions. Sonic's results invalidate your conception, period.

It doesn't matter how bad you think Sonic is if there are like 3 Sonic players with amazing results. Sonic's results are indicative of high tier results.

If every character's results indicated where they should lie on the tier list, then we would have a results-based tier list.

Don't get me wrong. I do not believe Sonic is a bad character. But to say he's better than Toon Link?? Just because Sonic's players were able to do something Toon Link's players haven't done?

Ness players have been placing better than Pit players for quite a while now. But nobody would dare argue Ness > Pit.

I'm thinking mid, mid-high C Tier.

This is what I also believe. Not frickin’ top of C Tier…

First, what SFP said.

Second, fine, top might be pushing it a tiny bit. But I doubt Sonic is that worse than Kirby, Fox, ROB, Pit, Peach, DK, Luigi, Wolf, and Zelda/Sheik, at least when looking at tournament performance. I know tools make a diff, but I'm not going to say I know one characters' are better than anothers', because, like most of you, I don't know.

What has Fox done that Sonic hasn't? Or Pit? Or ROB?

I completely agreed with you aside from what you originally said about Top of C Tier. I also think Sonic is a better character than ROB, Pit, Luigi, DK, Pit, and Peach. However, I do think Fox, Wolf, and Kirby might be a bit more debatable. And Toon Link is definitely better.

:green:

 

[NAKAT]

So far my results with Fox this season have been 13th, 3rd, 3rd, and 5th yesterday. I lost to NY's Snakee a Zzs main and beat him in losers. Tough as match up.

 

[MJG]

Wolf should be higher. Kain taking some names at SiiS4! He just beat Atomsk.

Atomsk was dumb and went wolf Game 1 and he should have stuck with DDD for the rest of the set. Not taking anything from Kain though because he played great (like usual).

I don't think Wolf should be higher because of what one wolf player did though. That is like saying Sonic should be High Tier (Even though, Espy and X are made of RAPEEEEEEEEE).

 

[Tesh]

DDD is unwinnable for Wolf.

 

[Yikarur]

but Wolf should be higher because Wolf is doing well everywhere.

Wolf has no unwinnable Match-ups at all.

 

[JayBee]

Alot of characters have bad matchups that people don't exploit. Most people aren't good enough with a character that soft/hard counters Sonic. Just like if you run into DEHF or TKD, your pikachu might not be good enough to exploit the bad matchup.

Look how well Kain did before facing a good DDD. There aren't very many matchups in this game where bad players beat good one.

and that is what forms todays metagame in many aspects: what /who is winning, and what the others do to counter it many times. If i todays meta game suddenly had a drastic increase of Sonic's "worst matchup" then theoretically he would drop. but that kind of thing would have several other effects, like possibly more counters to that character rising.

As long as you understand that the metagame is constantly shifting youre golden (not saying most of you dont, im just generalizing) In this current metagame, Sonic can florish and has done so. The players Espy and X prove that by mastering the Metaknight matchup, one gives himself a good chance to show how well a character can perform in this metagame. But that metagame can change at any time, and they would have to adjust.

because of this, i believe that as long as metaknight is a dominant force in the metagame, strong sonic players will continue to do well in tourneys.

The circumstances of why a bad match up is a bad match up is irrelevant. The fact that they exist, and hinder Fox, is much more important. Sonic has plenty of bad match ups, but most of them, like Fox's, get filtered out by Meta Knights and Snakes, or other top tiers who happen to get filtered out by Meta Knights and Snakes.

quoted since it helps support my argument. Also I think Sonic and Fox should be about the same in placement, based on this quote and my earlier statement.

 

[Blacknight99923]

fox is significantly better than sonic imo, unless sonic has a near even MU with metaknight that I magically don't know about.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Fox is significantly overrated compared to where he actually belongs. He should drop while Sonic ends up being higher than him.

 

[Goldenadept]

DDD is unwinnable for Wolf.

wolf has no unwinnable MU's
wario is harder than D3 if the wario knows the CG cause wario cause actually, you know, keep up with wolf. something D3 is woefully inept at doing when the wolf is running away

 

[Tesh]

I don't think Fox really goes near even with MK. I sincerely believe that its a new matchup for most MKs and he will wind up in the pile with Snake, Wario, Olimar, Jigglypuff, Bowser etc. once the matchup is learned. Not saying he gets wrecked by high tier though.

He also does horribly on MKs counterpicks.

 

[NAKAT]

Fox is significantly overrated compared to where he actually belongs.

lmao!

I don't think Fox really goes near even with MK. I sincerely believe that its a new matchup for most MKs and he will wind up in the pile with Snake, Wario, Olimar, Jigglypuff, Bowser etc. once the matchup is learned. Not saying he gets wrecked by high tier though.

He also does horribly on MKs counterpicks.

That mu is definitely even, I wouldn't even have to explain why TKD has done it like 10 million times and I have also been taking MK out. Fox doesn't do as bad on Frigate or stages like that. Brinstar and RC are risky, but are definitely possible to win on.

The highest level MK against Fox right now would be Havok. TKD and Havok play eachother a lot and even with all of that experience TKD can still win. Both amazing players both at the top of their game with there characters. It's definitely even.

 

[Blacknight99923]

fox definitely has a near even match up with metaknight

 

[da K.I.D.]

yo nakat, tier list match at pound?

winner takes the higher spot on the tier list?

also, blacknight hates on sonic all day. why is that?

 

[NAKAT]

yo nakat, tier list match at pound?

winner takes the higher spot on the tier list?

also, blacknight hates on sonic all day. why is that?

What? lol

 

[TheReflexWonder]

yo nakat, tier list match at pound?

winner takes the higher spot on the tier list?

I really wish it were that easy.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I don't hate on sonic but I don't think he deserves any form of significant raise.