Official BBR Tier List v5

[Deleted member]

@Mars, I would say that Fox has more common bad MUs mainly because of ICs gaining popularity. Also, Pikachu and Sheik are both worse for Fox than they are for Wolf.

 

[NAKAT]

@Mars, I would say that Fox has more common bad MUs mainly because of ICs gaining popularity. Also, Pikachu and Sheik are both worse for Fox than they are for Wolf.

They can be worse, but they are still bad for Wolf lol.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I'm going to teach everyone how to beat Peach right now.

Everyone knows Peach has insane shield pressure strings that make shielding unsafe, because you either wait out the pressure string and punish when you expect her to stop attacking (usually after jab 1 you spot dodge, or wait out jab 2 and punish it, or roll after the aerial on shield). If she reads your roll, you eat a strong hit or another aerial, and if she reads your wait, you take a lot of shield damage and you're still in a bad position. Thus, usually, it's suggested that you avoid shielding vs Peach.

Here's an easy way that is actually pretty obvious to avoid the pressure string and reset to neutral: when you expect a dair and have to shield, shield the first few hits. Near the end of the attack, release your shield and eat the last hit or two. At high enough percents, you take very little damage and dair's hit doesn't really set you up for anything that's very difficult to avoid.

If you want to be really cool (this is how I usually do it, or how I was doing it the other night anyway lol) shield for the first couple hits, release, and SDI UP and perform your fastest aerial (for me it's uair so it's very easy).

Peach is bad.

What is this I don't even

 

[da K.I.D.]

No. Like most matchups that MK struggles in it's a 6-4 MK advantage. Definitely not even.

this.

DEHF didn't know the Sonic matchup? O wait he has played X in Cali tons of times.

Texas didn't know the Sonic matchup? O wait Espy lives there

Rich Brown doesn't know the Sonic matchup? O wait he's from Cali

You don't seem to know what you're talking about.

Theres also the fact that Tyrant apparently doesnt know the sonic matchup for losing to Espy, despite the fact that he beat X at the same exact tourney.

And X has done well against M2K in the past....so yea I don't really see why it matters that East Coast wasn't there and they don't have any elite Sonics over there any way so it's safe to assume they would have been wrecked just like the WC players.

WHOA Whooooaaa..
hey now...

The EC sonics arent quite at the X/Espy level, but we are all still quite good, not to mention the important fact that they are all over the place.

Theres me, theres another sonic on my PR, I believe Kai and Wes still play him on the down low, theres like 4 sonic players in PA, 4-5 more in MD/Va, one or 2 in GA, and a bunch of baddies in FL. the non emphasised points there are true, but dont belittle everyone else.

The only one to really lay the beat down on Sonic the whole tournament was Ally.

you sure about that?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tojihrglUmo

I think Fox is dangerous but I feel that Sonic is a better character for this game.

This.

 

[-Mars-]

WRONG again LMAO. I believe Blackknight quoted M2K before lol he was right.

EDIT: Mars if you played Fox you'd understand why that mu is even. Never mind lolswf is too good to times.

I do play him. But i'm of the opinion that the only character that goes even close to even with MK is Falco and that's only with a strict LGL or anti-gay-something rule in place.

@Mars, I would say that Fox has more common bad MUs mainly because of ICs gaining popularity. Also, Pikachu and Sheik are both worse for Fox than they are for Wolf.

Agreed.

WHOA Whooooaaa..
hey now...

The EC sonics arent quite at the X/Espy level, but we are all still quite good, not to mention the important fact that they are all over the place.

Theres me, theres another sonic on my PR, I believe Kai and Wes still play him on the down low, theres like 4 sonic players in PA, 4-5 more in MD/Va, one or 2 in GA, and a bunch of baddies in FL. the non emphasised points there are true, but dont belittle everyone else.
you sure about that?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tojihrglUmo



This.

I wasn't belittling everyone else. I know who Speed is....he's not elite. I know who Kai is....he's not elite. I don't really know much about you besides watching you beat Snakeee a couple times. All good players but not at quite at an "elite" national level. prove me wrong.

And I hadn't watched that set with ESAM haha still went to game 5 though.

 

[Deleted member]

They can be worse, but they are still bad for Wolf lol.

Oh, no doubt about it. Sheik is probably the bigger threat in my region, with both Tutu and Judo around.

 

[Laem]

Lol, tutu.
I'm so terrified :$

 

[$up@ N0v@]

Question: Is the general consensus that:
Rise:
Diddy Kong
Pikachu
Wolf
Sonic
Fox
Ike
Yoshi
Lucas
Samus
Mario
Drop:
Snake
Wario
ICs
ROB
Pit
Peach
DK
Luigi
Capt. Falcon
Pokemon Trainer
Feel free to agree only with what you feel comfortable with.

 

[Z'zgashi]

DK should go up, not drop >.>

 

[Jimmyfosho]

Not every character moves up or down

 

[Deleted member]

Lol, tutu.
I'm so terrified :$

Tutu isn't bad, but I'm confident I could beat him now, especially after watching more of his playstyle. He plays more like Falco than a Sheik, lol.

 

[DMG]

Question: Is the general consensus that:
Rise:
Diddy Kong
Pikachu
Wolf
Sonic
Fox
Ike
Yoshi
Lucas
Samus
Mario
Drop:
Snake
Wario
ICs
ROB
Pit
Peach
DK
Luigi
Capt. Falcon
Pokemon Trainer
Feel free to agree only with what you feel comfortable with.

Wario and IC's shouldn't be moving down. If anything, all that would happen is Wario dropping right under IC's. The character clearly is better than Olimar/Pika/those in the next tier, and the only way that would change is if the stage list became extremely conservative.

IC's might drop. Tournament wise they have fallen off and it feels like no one really plays them. Back in the day you used to have strong IC players in every region: Lain, Fly, Melee1, Hylian, Meep, etc. Nowadays, most of the time you hear about IC's it's about a Japan tournament or a Canadian tournament. They are one of the hardest characters to effectively judge, because you have a case of a character who is clearly good that just doesn't see much tournament action anymore. They aren't a popular enough character for everyone and their grandma to second either (take Wario for example, nearly everyone has a Wario somewhere in their pocket it seems), so you don't even see them played much in friendlies or MM's. If they drop, it would only be 2 spots under Pika and Olimar: I don't think Dedede will ever be as good as them.

DK should go up, not drop >.>

DK will either stand still or drop. There's not much of a case for him to rise, unless you are talking about him rising above the dropping Pit, ROB, etc. There's only so far you can shrug off or downplay his bad matchups before you have to accept they will always hold him back.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Only sheik I've played that was MW is Kennispam.

I still think Fox's bad match-ups are worse than Wolf's in the long run and can hold him back much more than Wolf's bad ones can.

 

[-Mars-]

Fox:

Pika
Ice Climbers
Sheik

Wolf:

Wario
DDD
Pika

debateable.

 

[DMG]

Wolf's counters look easier to play. Only big thing I noticed.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Fox:

Pika
Ice Climbers
Sheik

Wolf:

Wario
DDD
Pika

debateable.

I think the top 3 are worse for Fox than the bottom 3 are for Wolf.

DDD is the main one that is making me second guess though, I dunno if Wario is that bad even with the CG, Wolf does do better against Pika that I do know for a fact.

 

[Deleted member]

Wario isn't that bad without the CG. On top of that, the CG is percentage dependent and a lot of Wario's can't do it for long, at least in my experience.

And D3 is probably Wolf's hardest MU. The only Wolf I've seen do well is Choice when he's playing against Michael Hey, who may be the most knowledgeable D3 on the Wolf MU.

 

[-Mars-]

The good thing about both of them though is their spacies....so they already have really solid built in tools (reflector, Laser).

Then you add in the fact that they both do good against MK,Snake, and Diddy.

Both of these characters will cause some havoc in this game before it's all said and done.

 

[Tesh]

How difficult is the CG and does it lead into a kill move? Like is it as hard as that DDD infinite on Snake or only as hard as IC cgs?

 

[DMG]

How difficult is the CG and does it lead into a kill move? Like is it as hard as that DDD infinite on Snake or only as hard as IC cgs?

It's the same CG you do on Falco and DK. His weight changes the timing by a few frames from Falco, but you still get the 10 frame buffer window to do it like the others. Not nearly as hard as the Dedede multi buffered pivot regrab or anything of that caliber.

Imagine the standard Dedede infinite, and add a turnaround before you press Z. That's basically how hard it is lol. Instead of regrabbing in front, you regrab behind you.

I don't recall if it leads into a kill move. It allows the buffered regrab with no escape at all from spotdodge or Down B. So that's at least 6-7 frames he is vulnerable (probably 7 because it takes a frame to turn around iirc). He may be able to PS or Down B any Fsmash attempts. However the CG goes on for a really long time regardless. All you have to do is tack on like 30% beginning of the stock, and then go for it. Assuming your Dthrow is not at a weird staleness when you try to begin it. Then, you can end it with a Fthrow. Depending on his DI/where you are located on the stage, it might kill. But most likely it will not.

 

[stingers]

Given the lack of big results from Peach, R.O.B., and to a lessor extant Pit, I moved Wolf up.

3 ROB mains definitely won tournaments this weekend...

 

[DMG]

ROB is still bad yo.

He's not on that Wolf status, but it's there.

 

[Exceladon City]

Squirtle makes it stupid for PT to be in low tier, considering that his moveset ****s all over most LT characters.

Doesn't mean **** if Squirtle can't work an entire match by himself. Anyone with a brain and a character with the ability to gtfo will just timeout Squirtle's stamina and make short work of Ivyzard.

Tutu isn't bad, but I'm confident I could beat him now, especially after watching more of his playstyle. He plays more like Falco than a Sheik, lol.

DarkLouis EXP says hi.

Fox:

Pika
Ice Climbers
Sheik

Wolf:

Wario
DDD
Pika

debateable.

-Pikachu and Sheik are a rarity and if you do run into either one in tournament, chances are they aren't going to be trash.
-Same with ICs. The only place where there is an abundance of ICs is the MW. Namely Michigan. Now the MU is ****ing awful for Fox. I play ICs and I play against a Fox regularly. He only beats me on stages like Delfino and Pictochat.
-Wario and DDD are probably more common than the latter. You can factor Wario's CG on Wolf, but chances are the Wolf is gonna be playing defensively against Wario regardless of the CG. It's a much safer match-up than Wolf vs DDD. Any DDD worth their salt, is gonna **** all over Wolf. I was right next to Kain and Atomsk while they played and Kain played the match-up the best way a Wolf could play it but he got grabbed and 1 grab is essentially death.

 

[stingers]

ROB aint even bad. Wario's definitely worse.

 

[$up@ N0v@]

DK should go up, not drop >.>

All I've been seeing is DK to drop. I've been lurking this thread since page 1.

Not every character moves up or down

Which is why I didn't list every character. Only the ones who have been stated to drop/rise repeatedly.

Wario and IC's shouldn't be moving down. If anything, all that would happen is Wario dropping right under IC's. The character clearly is better than Olimar/Pika/those in the next tier, and the only way that would change is if the stage list became extremely conservative.

IC's might drop. Tournament wise they have fallen off and it feels like no one really plays them. Back in the day you used to have strong IC players in every region: Lain, Fly, Melee1, Hylian, Meep, etc. Nowadays, most of the time you hear about IC's it's about a Japan tournament or a Canadian tournament. They are one of the hardest characters to effectively judge, because you have a case of a character who is clearly good that just doesn't see much tournament action anymore. They aren't a popular enough character for everyone and their grandma to second either (take Wario for example, nearly everyone has a Wario somewhere in their pocket it seems), so you don't even see them played much in friendlies or MM's. If they drop, it would only be 2 spots under Pika and Olimar: I don't think Dedede will ever be as good as them.

Ok. Point taken.

DK will either stand still or drop. There's not much of a case for him to rise, unless you are talking about him rising above the dropping Pit, ROB, etc. There's only so far you can shrug off or downplay his bad matchups before you have to accept they will always hold him back.

Ugh. You're getting to my point prematurely...

 

[DMG]

ROB aint even bad. Wario's definitely worse.

Yep, all those hard matchups. Like losing to Rob.

Ugh. You're getting to my point prematurely...

Hi there. My name is DMG. I've been known to get to the point from time to time. Enjoy your stay.

 

[Coney]

Ummm Coney this argument doesn't make much sense.

I AGREE YOU BIG DUMMY THAT'S WHAT I WAS SAYING

 

[Xebenkeck]

DMG you of all people should be able to appreciate how gay some ROB's can be

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Doesn't mean **** if Squirtle can't work an entire match by himself. Anyone with a brain and a character with the ability to gtfo will just timeout Squirtle's stamina and make short work of Ivyzard.

Timing out Squirtle's stamina isn't the same as beating him. It's not even close for a fair amount of characters.

 

[Exceladon City]

Timing out Squirtle's stamina isn't the same as beating him. It's not even close for a fair amount of characters.

Well at the point where his stamina is run out, it makes it alot easier to deal with him. Risk v Reward becomes much more of a factor. Since his damage output and KB decrease from fatigue, he's pretty much vulnerable to what ever **** his opposition is going to deliver.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Hmm, now I'm not sure if I grabbed the right post, but according to one of them, just because X lost to some unranked guy means Sonic ought to drop?

Unlike that post though, I have valid proof with a bracket that Z; a renowned Pikachu player, lost to an unranked, Zelda player. Should Pikachu drop now?

Nooooooo~. :3

http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=10396

Ugh, I'm almost ashamed to link this. I did God awful, and I really need to rethink my approach and defense. But that is beside the point.

I'm not going to make up excuses for X, but players have their bad days too, among other things that could've went wrong. Just as there are some things that could've factored in for a player getting deep in a bracket, but can we be reasonable here and assume that the next time Z plays a Zelda he won't lose; just as X might not lose if he gets a chance to play the same dude again?

At least if he does lose the 2nd time around, then there's no excuse.

as far as I know he lost to anuar twice in the same tournament, if thats what you are asking.

I'm somewhat confused

 

[Meru.]

I'm going to teach everyone how to beat Peach right now.

Everyone knows Peach has insane shield pressure strings that make shielding unsafe, because you either wait out the pressure string and punish when you expect her to stop attacking (usually after jab 1 you spot dodge, or wait out jab 2 and punish it, or roll after the aerial on shield). If she reads your roll, you eat a strong hit or another aerial, and if she reads your wait, you take a lot of shield damage and you're still in a bad position. Thus, usually, it's suggested that you avoid shielding vs Peach.

Here's an easy way that is actually pretty obvious to avoid the pressure string and reset to neutral: when you expect a dair and have to shield, shield the first few hits. Near the end of the attack, release your shield and eat the last hit or two. At high enough percents, you take very little damage and dair's hit doesn't really set you up for anything that's very difficult to avoid.

If you want to be really cool (this is how I usually do it, or how I was doing it the other night anyway lol) shield for the first couple hits, release, and SDI UP and perform your fastest aerial (for me it's uair so it's very easy).

Peach is bad.

I usually dont comment like this nor do I like to but

Are you ****ing serious? This is one of your reasons you think Peach is bad? You think Peach, a character that gets her kills mainly by pressure, minds it if you get hit by a move with vertical trajectory? Peach does not get limited by this in the least. Just... Re-read your post please and then look again at Peach and her tools.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Since his damage output and KB decrease from fatigue, he's pretty much vulnerable to what ever **** his opposition is going to deliver.

This is like the worst thing I've read for pages.

I usually dont comment like this nor do I like to but

Are you ****ing serious? This is one of your reasons you think Peach is bad? You think Peach, a character that gets her kills mainly by pressure, minds it if you get hit by a move with vertical trajectory? Peach does not get limited by this in the least. Just... Re-read your post please and then look again at Peach and her tools.

This is only one thing that's kind of bad about Peach!

Also, taking damage from Peach > being pressured in your shield from Peach, since she can't kill you until like 160 LOL

 

[Blacknight99923]

ima just gonna say now I am done posting in this thread about sonic if you feel the need to debate this with me more take it to PMs or aim.


Reflex does one actually need to time out squirtles stamina?

I was under the impression its safer just to kill them

 

[Coney]

i think the point is squirtle isn't actually that scary and even if he was, letting him tucker his little self out is a pretty good tactic

 

[Meru.]

This is like the worst thing I've read for pages.



This is only one thing that's kind of bad about Peach!

Also, taking damage from Peach > being pressured in your shield from Peach, since she can't kill you until like 160 LOL

... But it isnt even bad ;l. And if you take normal damage from Peach she will start pressuring you. Being on top of your opponent is rarely a good position in this game (at least in the direction Dair sends you)and it definitely isnt good vs Peach as well.

 

[Tesh]

I don't think Fatigue would matter that much in low tier though. Squirtle still gimps the heck out of everyone. If he was in low tier, I would put him at the top of it. Though he could just stay at the bottom of mid tier with Yoshi moves up above him. Its not like the tiers have a max capacity.

 

[da K.I.D.]

if squirtle can attack you safely and not get retaliated against, which is the case for a number of his matchups, then having less knockback and damage, is pretty much inconsequential.

 

[da K.I.D.]

lol wrong thread.

 

[Exceladon City]

i think the point is squirtle isn't actually that scary and even if he was, letting him tucker his little self out is a pretty good tactic

^This. Squirtle at full power is a pain. When he's worn out, not so much of a pain.

Anytime I played a PT with Sonic, I would just spend the majority of that stock avoiding Squirtle and planting Bairs in his face when I saw an opening. Once the switch comes, the other 2 get wrecked and you repeat the process. Imagine if MK mains did that to Squirtle.