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Official BBR Tier List v5

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Kewkky

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I think NR went about that MU all wrong, Kirby can't do anything against ZSS camping at mid-range, like at all, and when he gets close he still can't really do anything vs jab OOS.
You're giving Kirby too little credit. Kirby can zone ZSS with his presence at mid-range so she keeps making space between them both. Also, our ftilt clashes with ZSS's jab, and her jab can't hit us while crouching which means spaced dtilts beat it.

Yes, but you can also jab right after side-b ends and beat most punishes. :awesome:

That's why PSing is so important vs. ZSS (and also kind of annoying when you play her) because PSing is the only way to guarantee a punish on a well-spaced side-b unless they predict you're going to do it. The reason Kewkky and Orion etc. say ZSS is so free is because apparently, ZSS is pretty much always going to side-b at mid-range so you can just PS it and grab/anything. This completely ignores all of her very strong, fast mix-up options at mid-range though. Are these punishable too? Yeah, but you can't punish them all the same way so you had to have expected it. This is what makes NR's ground-oriented playstyle effective. Meh.
I never said ZSS was "free", don't put words in my mouth please.

Unless ZSS's option is a grab, she can't really do much against shields. If your opponent is like me when I use Kirby, then I expect them to go in and do their thing, then when their shields start getting low, retreat and camp for a bit until the shield grows back, rinse and repeat. Also, the thing about sideB that makes it so shields beat it is its first weak hitbox. If you space it well then there's nothing to worry about, but if you miscalculate your opponent's speed or don't expect them to run into your face, they can shield that first hit and shieldgrab/do some other fast OoS option.
 
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Uh, shield is an answer to almost anything in this game unless your opponent is Peach or Marth, what's your point? If your opponent is just hiding in their shield you can read that and side-b at a distance to wear their shield down or just walk away, or dsmash, which is entirely safe on shield.

Shield is a very good option, but then, shield is almost always a good option. You can say the same thing about almost any character. ZSS has other ways to get around shielding, they just aren't intuitive (i.e., it isn't just hitting the Z button).

If they don't expect dtilt, it's easy to get away with that on shield since when spaced well the punish window is pretty small.

Dsmash is entirely safe on shield.

Back air is usually safe on shield, esp. front hitbox.

And *gasp* grab, which while slow, is pretty useful when you don't spam it.
 

Poltergust

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playing very basic mit Yoshi is a bad thing, it's mad easy to counter and Polt does so often stuff like fullhop bair with full momentum in the direction of the opponent, people should punish that, it's really not that hard.
I just still don't get it why people are aunable to abuse Yoshis weaknesses, it's actually very easy, especially with MK :/
You should at least give me a little more credit, you know. If my playstyle is so bad why am I the most successful Yoshi main? Honestly, I could beat Ally or M2K in a tournament set and you'll still criticize me harshly. It's never enough. =/

Also, did you see what Anti did to me in the last stock of of the 2nd game of our MM? I seriously couldn't do anything else but roll behind him when my shield kept getting d-tilted against a wall, which still put me right in the middle of his d-smash. What about my set with ADHD in which he abused Bananas and side-B to severely limit my options (yet I still almost won the first game)? People know how to abuse Yoshi's shield, it's just that his shield is a weakness we can mitigate in most circumstances.

Oh, and DMG? I'm not saying for people to know the match-up, because true match-up knowledge only comes with experience. What I'm saying is for people to understand the fundamentals of each character. All of the stuff I list before are needed for a character to succeed in high-level play, because they are so intertwined into that character's play-style.


 

Dark.Pch

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What better logic is there then me beating 3 of the best Peach's all at the same tourney? Isn't the matchup being played out better then theorycraft?

Peach's float gets intercepted with lasers and Fair kills her. She can't kill Wolf till the 180's unless she gets a good read. Wolf's scarring has tricksies and the normal Peach killing with Uair's or Usmash from reads gets beaten out by shine lololoolol.

Good luck with that, but I'm never going to Texas @____@...
Ok from what I read here, I can but my life on the line right now and tell you 2 things happen here.

- Peach played typical
- Peach played aggressive

Peach should not be floating alot against wolf to begin with. But of course Peach players have that habit of always wanting to. So free hits for you. If Wolf is off stage, Peach actually has an easier time keeping him out. I know damm well you never had a Peach abuse float Land on you. And which she can still keep invic frames when getting back on stage. I can keep grabbing the ledge over and over really quick. forcing you to aim for the stage, which from there I can float on stage and hit you out. or the smart thing, grab you to get damage off and fresh my kill moves, then knock you back out. Peach has the option to control space animals recoverys.

I'm pretty sure you landed lots of Bairs on them as well cause they kept testing that move instead of leaving it alone.

If wolf camps, Peach is suppose to hope over or go under the laser. its not like Fox and falcos lasers where they can send mutiples at once. Once Peach gets close, wolf has to stop unless you want a free hit. From there it is all about up close combat and reaction time.

Peach is not suppose to stay inside wolf for so long and try to style on him. Its a hit and run. Really since wolf is not fast. Peach needs a solid ground game against wolf.

One more thing, you besting these Peach players means nothing cause:

Nicole: really only knows how to right meta and sucks/rages against other match ups. She said this herself

Excel- He is a beast But he gave wolf exactly what he needs to win. And aggressive Peach, and thats what excel is

SSR- IDK, to me he is not really a beast of a player.people like you are everyone else in the area hype him up (go figure yea) and your better then him, so of course you would beat him all the time. Common sense dude.

Kyon: Last I check when I was checking him out the wound weekend, he is a lil too float and Fair happy, you have options to take that out easy.

it comes to a point now where beating a top Peach player does not mean anything anymore cause of stuff such as this. As sad as it is, it is true.

So yea, you beating all these dudes does not mean wolf should be above Peach. You forget Peach has better match ups then you do Really against the important characters in the game.

Thats a terrible logic

Not everyone reads this thread. Something like peach's IASA frames on fair may not seem like common sense to someone else. Some people get their character information purely from rl experience. But even then, knowing peach can autocancel fair doesn't give you anywhere near all you need to know about the matchup.
Something alot of people don't known. If Peach does not land at the right time, the fair will lag. people may have be able to grab Peach even when she spaces a Fair and can't jab in time. This is why.

Also NickRiddle I seriously hope you are not gonna let that MM get to your head, you got it for now. But this does not convince me one Bit that ZSS wins. Peach wins this match up. I'll show you when I can figure out some way to play on point and do things in the match up I am suppose to be doing, and not do things like get turnips when you are right there. Until then, there is no way in hell I am gonna be you. So you can be happy with that.
 

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Dark, I'm not discussing this with you again.
The MU is even.
Moving on, other bs in this thread time again!@
 

Yikarur

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Polty, I didn't even mean his shield, he has far more weaknesses than that. ( a lot of them would be nullfied if he had a ordinary shield though >__<)
 

Poltergust

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Oh no! Reflex is delving deeper and deeper into Wario's fatness! Turn back before it's too late! D:

 

Dark.Pch

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Dark, I'm not discussing this with you again.
The MU is even.
Moving on, other bs in this thread time again!@
Don't worry, I was not gonna talk about this match up with you to begin with. I said what I was gonna say and that was it. And my opinion on the match up is different from yours. We'll leave it at that.
 

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Good thing DMG has figured this game out completely already.

:059:
I call Yoshi bad, and this is what you come up with?

If I made a sweeping... SWEEPING generalization about the entire cast that was purported to shake the entire metagame, and it was some obvious BS, then sure. But I think calling Yoshi bad... isn't that far-fetched.


DMG, most characters in this game are bad at approaching because shields are amazing, that isn't exactly a Yoshi-specific problem. :p

And out of those character's, Yoshi is worse at approaching that most of them.

AKA, he's still bad at approaching. This isn't shield specific either, but overall analysis of his range, speed, duration, safeness, etc of his attacks when used in that fashion.


I've been saying it since 2 tier list threads ago: our idea of what makes a character good or bad are completely false in many cases because this game is not simple enough to just say "Yoshi has a bad shield, low tier" or "Yoshi can't approach, low tier." Frankly the stages aren't large enough in most cases for matches to devolve into Falco-shoots-lasters-you-try-to-get-close (with a few exceptions) and in many, many many cases they are just games of chicken, while you wait for your opponent to do something laggy or an attack your character can easily beat. It's all options. That isn't to say Yoshi's shield doesn't hurt him, but to say you can just do X to Yoshi and invalidate him is hilariously wrong, especially since it isn't a chaingrab or infinite or something, he just has a bad shield. Everything you could do to his bad shield can still be avoided by just jumping away or spot dodging. It limits his options somewhat, it doesn't just make him terrible.
Having a bad shield limits him quite a bit defensively. Most characters can play the RPS of Shield, spotdodge, roll, jump, etc. Yoshi has to nearly completely forgo the shield option, which dumbs down his responses for the opponent to seriously consider when planning his next move. Especially in situations where even if you do decide to shield, you have no advantage from it, which allows the other guy to get away with a lot more than he could have on a regular shield.


Oh no! Reflex is delving deeper and deeper into Wario's fatness! Turn back before it's too late! D:




I approve the switch to Wario. Now he can take a dump on his opposition
 

Kewkky

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Oh goodie, the new flamethrower I ordered should be in by then. :awesome:
Dunno what would be there to flame, since we got the input from the best of every character's main, both in and outside the BBR. To bash it would be the same as bashing those top players of every character and say you're right. ;)
 

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Dunno what would be there to flame, since we got the input from the best of every character's main, both in and outside the BBR. To bash it would be the same as bashing those top players of every character and say you're right. ;)
You're acting as if that has ever stopped me before.

I still say there are going to be issues, if only because you can't be a precise with a system that only has a range of 7 (-3 to +3 with increments of 1 by the sounds) compared to a system that has a range of 20 (0:100 to 100:0 in increments of 05 either way). There are going to be MUs that have the same rating, but one is known to be more difficult than the other.
 

Kewkky

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What Peach was asked to discuss match ups and give ratio?
I don't know what were the outside resources used for the Peach part of the MU Chart, since I was assigned to lead Kirby and help with ZSS. Only thing I can say is wait for the thread to be created hopefully at sunday/monday to know who were the players that were asked.

You're acting as if that has ever stopped me before.
You are absolutely right. :|

I still say there are going to be issues, if only because you can't be a precise with a system that only has a range of 7 (-3 to +3 with increments of 1 by the sounds) compared to a system that has a range of 20 (0:100 to 100:0 in increments of 05 either way). There are going to be MUs that have the same rating, but one is known to be more difficult than the other.
*cough -4 < 0 < +4 cough*... The old MU ratios really only used 30:70 - 70:30 (rarely, if ever, 25:75/75:25), with the exception of the lowest tiered characters who were quite humble and went for the whole scale.

We tried to make the chart as accurate as we possibly could so that it can be used by every player with confidence. Our goal isn't to post something to see what the public thinks of our decisions and leave it at that, but to help the entire community by doing whatever we can. We thought it was a good idea to come up with another system, so we made one up the vast majority agreed to and stuck to it. I do hope the Brawl community grows fond of it. :/



EDIT: Maaaan, I haven't double-posted in FOREVER. Sorry about that.
 

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Fairly sure the first reaction after "WHAT DO YOU MEAN THIS MU IS X:X" is going to be "K, let's convert this to numbers we actually use on our boards now." :/

Most people were happy with ##:## from what I can tell, and chances are that they are going to want to stick with it.
 

Kewkky

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Fairly sure the first reaction after "WHAT DO YOU MEAN THIS MU IS X:X" is going to be "K, let's convert this to numbers we actually use on our boards now." :/

Most people were happy with ##:## from what I can tell, and chances are that they are going to want to stick with it.
People were happy with those numbers? From what I remember seeing in many different character boards and here in (what used to be) Tactical, people had their ratio's definitions mixed up, and they didn't want to agree on the other's viewpoint if it meant their character would have a worse matchup if they did. Also, you get people like the Pika boards (other boards too, but their boards come to mind immediately) where they split the MU ratios into even smaller parts like 43:57 (for the MK MU), amongst other examples, because they felt the ratings weren't big enough. Also, we used to get lots of clashing opinions on whether or not an MU was either 55:45 or 60:40, some pulling for either side and some aiming for the Pikachu way... I'm quite sure this called for a new simpler system.

Of course, part of the fun for me is seeing how people react. Them bashing, praising, or simply coming in to post that Simpson's .gif, it's gonna happen whether or not anyone wants to and I can't wait to sit back with a bowl of popcorn and read opinions. ;)
 

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All I have to say to the people are still saying ZSS can't handle shields against the top tiers, watch ADHD vs Nick Riddle first game IMO.

Watch how many times bair gets punished on shield. Watch how ZSS is fast enough to play the nanner game and doesn't have to directly approach the entire game.

As far as her dtilt, it's the same range as MK's dtilt, 2 frames slower startup and 3 frames worse on block. Neither of those differences is enough to change a move from incredible to bad. I'm not saying her ground game is good, but in most matchups dsmash/side b/dtilt spacing, jab interrupt mixups, froll, and dash attacks to punish with grabs depending on the matchup are enough to give her a decent ground game.

It helps that her ground moves give much higher reward for landing them than other characters (not just talking about dsmash either), the notable exceptions being MK, Snake, and Falco, which is a big reason why they are her 3 hardest matchups.
 

SpliziT

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I imagine they asked the Peach backroom. That's what they did for lucario. but then again there are no lucarios in the BBR to speak of at any level... lol
I just have to say that vid in your signature is too good.
 

Kewkky

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In the Lucario BR, no clue. In the BBR, I think he got kicked due to inactivity.
 

-Mars-

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So I see Azen played Melee at Pound. Did his Lucario make it into any friendlies or anything?
 

Dark.Pch

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I imagine they asked the Peach backroom. That's what they did for lucario. but then again there are no lucarios in the BBR to speak of at any level... lol
I'm In the Peach BR. And I don't recall anyone asking us to discuss match ups.
 

Steam

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In the Lucario BR, no clue. In the BBR, I think he got kicked due to inactivity.
He's inactive in the LBR. But he's probably not the best one to ask anyways since he's a MK main with a pocket lucario.

though Trela was active enough in the LBR to give top lucario input
 

da K.I.D.

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dark i need to talk to you about that thing you said about the wolf matchup.

im going to eat now but Ill come back to this. but for now ill just say that what you said about that was really off base.
 

Kewkky

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He's inactive in the LBR. But he's probably not the best one to ask anyways since he's a MK main with a pocket lucario.

though Trela was active enough in the LBR to give top lucario input
Well then, you guys should feel satisfied when you see the MU chart. Keep in mind that it's not all exactly like the character boards say, you'll find small differences in some MUs here and there from what you're probably expecting, unless you were in the LBR during the discussions. Same goes for every other character's mainer: unless they were the players we asked, they MIGHT find some surprises here and there.
 
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