Official BBR Tier List v5

[Z'zgashi]

@Niddo: DJ Armor, you forget. Your dtilt doesn't hit us out until we're at high damage. We can just jump right through your little dtilt then we have our choice of any air attack we please...

 

[bigman40]

It's mid percents Gashi.

 

[Yikarur]

@Niddo: DJ Armor, you forget. Your dtilt doesn't hit us out until we're at high damage. We can just jump right through your little dtilt then we have our choice of any air attack we please...

I would enjoy to see how you try to do that and then die because our heavy armor is not that heavy.

oh and it was about spiking out of upB actually.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Its around 60-70%

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Hmmm Peach seems to spring up a bit on your list Pierce (or at least up a tier since the 3rd and 4th tier sort of combine)

Interesting, especially with her being above ROB and Pit's 'amazing' Uair and arrow planking (lol...)

Wowzas at Ganon being better than Zelda when LGL isn't on

 

[da K.I.D.]

why did sonic get such a big boost from not having a LGL?

 

[Deleted member]

Well, the CG goes into really high % [200%+] and Wario has grab set-ups; not true combos but stuff that is hard to escape for a fast faller [weak nair -> grab; dair -> grab; bite -> grab]. Also Wario's CG isn't as limited as Pikachu / D3 / Falco as it doesn't require space aka Wario can perform it on platforms. There are Wolf players who think it's 4/6 but I think it's worse [apparently I'm the only one though].

Edit: lol @ waving being Wolf's only strength. His anti-aerial moves solidly beat all of Wario's aerial approaches.

Wario's CG is only an issue after Wolf reaches a certain percent(62 I think).

 

[Browny]

why did sonic get such a big boost from not having a LGL?

lmao I hope the answer isnt coz spring > planking

or maybe I do hope that... >_>

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's his side taunt of course.

 

[~floW]

WHAT THE FFFFUUUU!!
Aw snap! Things just got a little more interesting

 

[Pierce7d]

Edge Cancelled Eggs with Yoshi are rather good if the opponent is really stupid. I remember how I won almost a Yoshi vs. Yoshi 1 vs. 3-Stocks by ECG' all the time.
But this is not the case against opponent who know how to play against Yoshi, like stay away when Yoshi is throwing eggs etc, You can even spike Yoshi out of it if you're carefully and the Yoshi doesn't recognize what you're trying to do.

I feel you are underrating your character in this regard. Just because a tactic is not infallible doesn't make it bad.

*slowly moves towards the ledge*

*suddenly goes for Dtilt spike*

:D Yoshi's nose makes it so he's probably one of the, if not the, easiest character for Ike to Dtilt spike. lol

A Yoshi would need to be utterly clueless to get hit by Ike's Dtilt. It's not that hard to see, "Ike is in Dtilt range. Let me move, mix-up my timing, or do a rising attack." I'm not trying to imply that Ike is helpless against this, but be fair.

Lucario's aren't good at the wolf or Fox match-up typically. It's similar to the Diddy match-up where the Diddy is more likely to know what to do compared to the Lucario MU. It's even for each animal, except Falco who he might have a slight disadvantage, but it's pretty small.

Still that is my opinion on the matter, there are a few Lucarios who do think Lucario loses to space animals.

I think he loses to Fox 55-45, and Falco 6-4. Unsure about Wolf MU.

Hmmm Peach seems to spring up a bit on your list Pierce (or at least up a tier since the 3rd and 4th tier sort of combine)

Interesting, especially with her being above ROB and Pit's 'amazing' Uair and arrow planking (lol...)

Wowzas at Ganon being better than Zelda when LGL isn't on

I feel like with the two characters being hopeless at approaching, Ganon's options are slightly better than Zelda's in terms of dealing with planking. Not by much though. Also, Pit was intended to be at the top of that tier and I have moved him to represent this.

I might switch Ganon and Zelda after considering Din's Fire a bit more.

why did sonic get such a big boost from not having a LGL?

I feel as though Sonic is a character adept at getting the lead and holding it without or without the ledge, and that his recovery is well suited to make attempts at combating planking, so it affects him less.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The last Yoshi I played against I told him "Yoshi is the easiest character to hit with Dtilt". I then promptly hit him with said Dtilt spike 3 times. Twice he was ending his DJ, once he was in Egg Toss animation. His nose is simply too big, it sticks up well into Dtilt range before he can grab the ledge. From what I could tell, if he had air dodged those Dtilts, he might have fallen too far to make it back with Egg Toss due to loss of momentum and all of that. I'd have to see how far Egg Toss brings Yoshi again to know for sure.

If Yoshi has to recover a long distance, there is a good chance I can land a Dtilt. At least from my experience. The other Yoshi I played against (the one that's in Texas, was one of the best, and then switched characters) didn't get hit by Dtilt because I only tried once, and he managed to have enough momentum/height to AD and land on stage. Probably didn't hurt the fact that at first he mained Ike, lol.

Basially: Dtilt has a larger range than people give it credit for.

 

[KickKickFlip]

Oh yeah Ike +5!

 

[Scarlet Jile]

A Yoshi would need to be utterly clueless to get hit by Ike's Dtilt. It's not that hard to see, "Ike is in Dtilt range. Let me move, mix-up my timing, or do a rising attack." I'm not trying to imply that Ike is helpless against this, but be fair.

Not to mention, Yoshi can down-B BELOW the stage and still grab the ledge.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Despite what I may have implied: it's still not easy to hit Yoshi with Dtilt, he's just the easiest to hit with Dtilt due to how his DJ works and all of that.

 

[Pierce7d]

The last Yoshi I played against I told him "Yoshi is the easiest character to hit with Dtilt". I then promptly hit him with said Dtilt spike 3 times. Twice he was ending his DJ, once he was in Egg Toss animation. His nose is simply too big, it sticks up well into Dtilt range before he can grab the ledge. From what I could tell, if he had air dodged those Dtilts, he might have fallen too far to make it back with Egg Toss due to loss of momentum and all of that. I'd have to see how far Egg Toss brings Yoshi again to know for sure.

If Yoshi has to recover a long distance, there is a good chance I can land a Dtilt. At least from my experience. The other Yoshi I played against (the one that's in Texas, was one of the best, and then switched characters) didn't get hit by Dtilt because I only tried once, and he managed to have enough momentum/height to AD and land on stage. Probably didn't hurt the fact that at first he mained Ike, lol.

Basially: Dtilt has a larger range than people give it credit for.

Fair analysis, but if you fish a Dtilt, Yoshi has other solid recovery options (like jump backwards, reverse egg lay, Ledge-Hop > Airdodge, get-up attack, roll, ledge-jump airdodge)

It makes it a pain, and it's still highly effective in quite a few MUs.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Oh, I'm not saying "Anytime Yoshi is off stage, it's Dtilt time!". Heck, if he's close to the stage and still has his DJ I won't try it. I'm saying if Yoshi has to go for maximum DJ distance, with no room to fool around, he's in danger of getting a Dtilt to the face, more so than most characters. I mean, who else would you say is in more danger of getting hit with Dtilt, besides maybe another Ike? Snake maybe if he's recovering WAY too close to the edge?

Though it is fun to combat walk Ganondorf to the edge and then Dtilt spike him.

 

[bigman40]

If you want to go by that, then Yoshi's can just use the instant downB ledge cancel to grab the ledge without having fear of getting hit.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there in fact some frames in between hitting Down B and grabbing the ledge? I doubt it's a frame 1 ledge grab. Wouldn't there be some frames for the animation of flipping/preparing to fall? Even if not, I'm fairly sure Ike's Dtilt has more range than Yoshi's Down B ledgesnap. : \

 

[bigman40]

Your talking about the one that isn't canceled and done normally. Yoshi can instantly cancel the filp of his downB and grab the ledge from fairly far (not completely sure but probably close to the tip of Dtilt). Even if we have to dodge it, we can grab it diagonally/below the stage and not worry about it (altough the range is less there, but still enough to not get hit).

 

[Yikarur]

Yoshis downB ledgesnap is ridiculous. If you hold down while input downB for one frame and release down in the next frame Yoshi instantly grabs the ledge.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Do you guys have like, a picture of how far Yoshi can be while doing this? I've never heard of this before somehow.

 

[NAKAT]

Pierce coming in here spreading that tier logic. Real talk though the tier list is looking okay so far. I am pretty upset that DK fell down -______________-

 

[Deleted member]

The last Yoshi I played against I told him "Yoshi is the easiest character to hit with Dtilt". I then promptly hit him with said Dtilt spike 3 times. Twice he was ending his DJ, once he was in Egg Toss animation. His nose is simply too big, it sticks up well into Dtilt range before he can grab the ledge. From what I could tell, if he had air dodged those Dtilts, he might have fallen too far to make it back with Egg Toss due to loss of momentum and all of that. I'd have to see how far Egg Toss brings Yoshi again to know for sure.

If Yoshi has to recover a long distance, there is a good chance I can land a Dtilt. At least from my experience. The other Yoshi I played against (the one that's in Texas, was one of the best, and then switched characters) didn't get hit by Dtilt because I only tried once, and he managed to have enough momentum/height to AD and land on stage. Probably didn't hurt the fact that at first he mained Ike, lol.

Basially: Dtilt has a larger range than people give it credit for.

TLDR: You played a bad yoshi, you dtilt spiked him 3 times.

Yoshi should be like the one of the hardest characters to dtilt unless ike has some crazy move that has jigglypuff dsmash knockback(which he doesnt). All of ikes moves knock you high, so yoshi should ALWAYS have the momentum/height to avoid downtilt. Even if yoshi was to not recover high, he can egg twice and have plenty of momentum to DJAD around dtilt. If he tries to rising aerial u can nab him though.


I kinda disagree pierce, although yoshis egg planking is surely amazing, it isnt really too abusable once you know how to deal with it. Yika is kinda on point, since we play yoshi weve obviously used it a lot, and people do figure out how to beat it(then again, some dont :D)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The problem with Yoshi's planking is that the Egg Toss doesn't immediately cover his vulnerable frames of the ledge snap. A trade is possible [assuming the Egg hits], which sometimes can be fatal for Yoshi.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It's like, 5% difference that's based on weight classes and fall speed. You don't need to know the % at all really, if you land a DA at around 40-60% you should follow it up

This needs elaboration. A little late, but I didn't see it before.

Dash Attack is a very commonly-used move because the start-up is fast and it's safe on block properly spaced. Dash Attack has a great trajectory for gimp set-ups, is good out of shield, etc. There are a ton of uses for Dash Attack, so it's almost always staled by at least a factor of 1.

The base Dash Attack Lock percentages vary by character by more than 5. For instance, Bowser's window (the biggest window, if memory serves) is between 36% and 70%, but Wario's is 44-63. Game and Watch's is 33-51, even. Any fresh Dash Attack landed after 36% on Bowser can start the chain. However, if your dash attack is stale by even 1, the window is bumped up by 2-3% both at the start and end. This means that the first time you land the Dash Attack Lock and start it, the end is automatically extended. Stale Dash Attack locks can last until well over 100% (as an example, it works on Wario for a very very long time, try it on Bridge of Eldin). amd cam be started much later than that 70% number, so the "end" value is somewhat misleading.

However, Dash Attack Locks aren't usually useful more than 3-4 times because it's pretty easy to SDI toward ZSS and escape it. To escape Dash Attack Lock, you have to SDI toward ZSS twice, meaning if she sees you do it once, she can predict whether or not you're going to do it again and buffer a reverse Dash Attack to continue the lock (like Sheik's ftilt lock). Usually you only get to hit them with it 3-4 times anyway, so it doesn't really matter much.

If you are wondering about the exact mechanics of it, there's a video (a little outdated) here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pItF4Sa5NHY and my guide is here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=235429

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Yoshi should be like the one of the hardest characters to dtilt unless ike has some crazy move that has jigglypuff dsmash knockback(which he doesnt). All of ikes moves knock you high, so yoshi should ALWAYS have the momentum/height to avoid downtilt. Even if yoshi was to not recover high, he can egg twice and have plenty of momentum to DJAD around dtilt. If he tries to rising aerial u can nab him though.

Ftilt doesn't knock you high: it's mainly horizontal. There is also of course Dash Attack from Bthrow sending you horizontal as well.

He's one of the easiest characters to Dtilt spike. *shrugs*

 

[Poltergust]

Well, let me just say this.

"When you hit Yoshi, you hit his nose. It's ALWAYS the nose."

Seriously. I wouldn't doubt that his nose consists of 80% of his hurtbox.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Yoshi needs to go on a diet. Clearly all of his fat goes to his nose. That dino is fatter than Wario dude.

 

[Pierce7d]

When you consider that Yoshi is still not high tier, I'm hard pressed to see that his ability to freely egg-plank is such a vulnerability.

 

[br3compactor]

Please complete the "Rank S" into "Rank Sakurai".

 

[bigman40]

When you consider that Yoshi is still not high tier, I'm hard pressed to see that his ability to freely egg-plank is such a vulnerability.

Too bad GA still uses the LGL so I can't abuse Yoshi's options on the ledge.

But it definitely does help him tons more than before in the last recommended rules.

 

[Poltergust]

Still, isn't it only applicable to matches that go to time?

Now that I think about it, I've never timed out/been timed out before. I came close twice (both in getting timed out and timing out), but those matches ended like right when the announcer said, "1!"

 

[Pierce7d]

If you try to Plank me and hit an LGL, I WILL time you out. No questions asked.

 

[bigman40]

No. When we're limited about how we can use the ledge, we're not able to play some matchups much more safe as we could without a LGL, and because of the way we plank the ledge, we can easily rack up the number of ledge grabs. So, the moment we pass the limit (or suspect it), it'll go very downhill from there because we have more problems approaching than a decent portion of the cast.

Being able to plank saves us from Falco's camping (and a few other things), which definitely helps in our matchups.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

To even further explain my "Yoshi is easier to Dtilt spike than most", since people are still taking it the wrong way, look at it like this.


S: Meta Knight
A: Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Wario, Marth, Ice Climbers
B: Olimar, Pikachu, King Dedede, Mr. Game & Watch, Lucario, Zero Suit Samus
C: Toon Link, Kirby, Fox, R.O.B., Pit, Peach, Donkey Kong
D: Luigi, Wolf, Sonic, Ike, Sheik, Ness, Squirtle, Charizard, Ivysaur
E: Yoshi, Lucas, Mario, Bowser
F: Captain Falcon, Samus, Jigglypuff, Link, Zelda
G: Ganondorf

There is all of the characters in Brawl. No, I didn't totally steal that from the first page and alter it slightly. First of all, lets strike out all of the characters with multiple jumps. There is no way you are going to land a dtilt on them without them being braindead. I'm including ROB in this group as he works basically the same way.

S: Meta Knight
A: Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Wario, Marth, Ice Climbers
B: Olimar, Pikachu, King Dedede, Mr. Game & Watch, Lucario, Zero Suit Samus
C: Toon Link, Kirby, Fox, R.O.B., Pit, Peach, Donkey Kong
D: Luigi, Wolf, Sonic, Ike, Sheik, Ness, Squirtle, Charizard, Ivysaur
E: Yoshi, Lucas, Mario, Bowser
F: Captain Falcon, Samus, Jigglypuff, Link, Zelda
G: Ganondorf

Next, let's cross out the characters with invincibility frames towards the end of their main recovery moves. They will most likely time it correctly so we can't hit them with Dtilt. While we're at it, let's also cross out those who have recovery moves that are simply too fast to have a good chance of hitting.

S: Meta Knight
A: Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Wario, Marth, Ice Climbers
B: Olimar, Pikachu, King Dedede, Mr. Game & Watch, Lucario, Zero Suit Samus
C: Toon Link, Kirby, Fox, R.O.B., Pit, Peach, Donkey Kong
D: Luigi, Wolf, Sonic, Ike, Sheik, Ness, Squirtle, Charizard, Ivysaur
E: Yoshi, Lucas, Mario, Bowser
F: Captain Falcon, Samus, Jigglypuff, Link, Zelda
G: Ganondorf

Next on the chopping block: tethers. They can time when they fly back up their tether and grab the ledge. Can't hit them really. Toon Link and Lucas I left uncrossed as their tethers aren't used nearly as often due to short range.

S: Meta Knight
A: Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Wario, Marth, Ice Climbers
B: Olimar, Pikachu, King Dedede, Mr. Game & Watch, Lucario, Zero Suit Samus
C: Toon Link, Kirby, Fox, R.O.B., Pit, Peach, Donkey Kong
D: Luigi, Wolf, Sonic, Ike, Sheik, Ness, Squirtle, Charizard, Ivysaur
E: Yoshi, Lucas, Mario, Bowser
F: Captain Falcon, Samus, Jigglypuff, Link, Zelda
G: Ganondorf

After that, we cross off the teleporters, and those with insane mobility in the air.

S: Meta Knight
A: Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Wario, Marth, Ice Climbers
B: Olimar, Pikachu, King Dedede, Mr. Game & Watch, Lucario, Zero Suit Samus
C: Toon Link, Kirby, Fox, R.O.B., Pit, Peach, Donkey Kong
D: Luigi, Wolf, Sonic, Ike, Sheik, Ness, Squirtle, Charizard, Ivysaur
E: Yoshi, Lucas, Mario, Bowser
F: Captain Falcon, Samus, Jigglypuff, Link, Zelda
G: Ganondorf

Then we have to consider those who have a large hitbox on their recovery moves/hitboxes angled just right, and will most likely hit Ike in the process.

S: Meta Knight
A: Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Wario, Marth, Ice Climbers
B: Olimar, Pikachu, King Dedede, Mr. Game & Watch, Lucario, Zero Suit Samus
C: Toon Link, Kirby, Fox, R.O.B., Pit, Peach, Donkey Kong
D: Luigi, Wolf, Sonic, Ike, Sheik, Ness, Squirtle, Charizard, Ivysaur
E: Yoshi, Lucas, Mario, Bowser
F: Captain Falcon, Samus, Jigglypuff, Link, Zelda
G: Ganondorf

Now, to sort the ones that remain. The ones I highlight in bold are high situational. Nearly crossed off, but still either just a hair too slow, or too predictable to actually crossed off.

S: Meta Knight
A: Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Wario, Marth, Ice Climbers
B: Olimar, Pikachu, King Dedede, Mr. Game & Watch, Lucario, Zero Suit Samus
C: Toon Link, Kirby, Fox, R.O.B., Pit, Peach, Donkey Kong
D: Luigi, Wolf, Sonic, Ike, Sheik, Ness, Squirtle, Charizard, Ivysaur
E: Yoshi, Lucas, Mario, Bowser
F: Captain Falcon, Samus, Jigglypuff, Link, Zelda
G: Ganondorf

Finally, the ones in red are the "easy" ones to land Dtilt on. By easy I mean "compared to everyone else".

S: Meta Knight
A: Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Wario, Marth, Ice Climbers
B: Olimar, Pikachu, King Dedede, Mr. Game & Watch, Lucario, Zero Suit Samus
C: Toon Link, Kirby, Fox, R.O.B., Pit, Peach, Donkey Kong
D: Luigi, Wolf, Sonic, Ike, Sheik, Ness, Squirtle, Charizard, Ivysaur
E: Yoshi, Lucas, Mario, Bowser
F: Captain Falcon, Samus, Jigglypuff, Link, Zelda
G: Ganondorf

See what I'm getting at? The only one I'm not positive on is Lucas. I know he has some amount of invincibility in his Up B, but I'm too lazy to go look it up. For the red names, it goes in this order IMO from hardest to easiest.

Diddy Kong, Snake, Squirtle, Ice Climbers, Luigi, Yoshi, Ganondorf, Bowser.

None of these are actually "easy", but they are in fact "easier" than the rest of the cast. If that makes sense.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think he loses to Fox 55-45, and Falco 6-4. Unsure about Wolf MU.

Again it's something I don't think is out of the question.

I like leaving ratios with a range usual because I accept I have a bias and try to put it in an area I think is agreeable by others.

Some I don't when I'm sure it's that ratio, Marth vs Lucario is 6-4 Marth no questions asked for example.

Both Wolf and Fox have traits that are very good for facing Lucario, while I don't think it give either an advantage, is someone said they had a slight advantage I wouldn't be annoyed by it. Same with Falco, even if I think it's 5:5, I've seen it sway around between 5:5 and 4:6. If someone says it's in Lucario's favor, I'll correct them or ask for proof.

 

[Iofsauron]

Ike moved up 5 spots. That's awesome

Hmm, that's odd, MK's name is crossed off one every... oh wait nvm, its MK

 

[Deleted member]

Yoshi does have invincibility frames on his recovery...
More than most characters u listed
Rising airdodge >.>

 

[Yikarur]

you need to understand that people thing our double jump itself is everything D: