Official BBR Tier List v5

[Kole]

I thought it was spelled Edrees

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Actually, my older brother has a half-decent Peach. You -can't- be aggressive with Peach because she's sooooo sloooooooow!

Peach is okay. She's just too slow to deal with many of the good characters in the game, much like, say, Ivysaur.

 

[etecoon]

agreed

peach is too slow to deal with ivysaur

 

[Exceladon City]

The past.

Johns.

More Johns.

Admit your character is mediocre plz.

Peach is nowhere near as good as you want her to be. Character flaws play a role in your performance.

Step your game up.

Quit the QQ storm.

Speak for yourself.

Nicole and Illmatic are doin mad work right now.


Seems to me you spend alot of time with these johns instead of trying to prove that Peach isn't bad.

 

[Yamato Hong]

This is probably asked before many times in the past, but...

If Wavedashing and L-Canceling did exist in SSBB, would those have a drastic effect on the tiers, if any at all? ^-^

All I could think of are the slower characters benefitting from L-Cancel. ^-^

EDIT: How does this affect the lower-tiered characters, especially.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

This is probably asked before many times in the past, but...

If Wavedashing and L-Canceling did exist in SSBB, would those have a drastic effect on the tiers, if any at all? ^-^

All I could think of are the slower characters benefitting from L-Cancel. ^-^

EDIT: How does this affect the lower-tiered characters, especially.

That's so terribly vague.

Wavedashing wasn't that big of a deal in Melee, save for a handful of characters (Marth, Ice Climbers, Luigi, Yoshi, and a couple I'm sure I'm missing). If I had to comment, characters with terrible initial dashes would benefit a great deal (Squirtle, Captain Falcon), and moves with ridiculous range would be all the deadlier (anyone's already-good Jab, Snake's tilts), especially ones with fast startup.

L-Canceling would presumably cut lag in half, which would make Ganondorf scarier and characters with already-fast recovery on moves could probably do them with impunity. Use your imagination. Go crazy.

 

[Tesh]

No character has mains that are perfect.

No character has mains that implement all techniques flawlessly.

Other characters aren't getting results just because they have perfect players maining them.

 

[DaomarIsBear]

Illmatic goes hard, I hear Silly Kyle is pretty good. In all reality, Peach probably is pretty good, but with people like Dark Pch posting, my opinion on her won't ever be that great.

Also, at Dark Pch. For Christ's sake, go download Firefox. It gives you these great little red lines under all the words you've incorrectly spelled, and even suggestions as to what you've tried to spell.

 

[Espy Rose]

You know...if Dark Pch put all of his effort into developing Peach, rather than these long, drawn out, meaningless posts...

...then maybe...just maybe...

 

[Dark.Pch]

Hahahahaha! 500 against 1 as usual. This is just too fun. I love this.

Peach is nowhere near as good as you want her to be. Character flaws play a role in your performance.


Quit the QQ storm.


Nicole and Illmatic are doin mad work right now.
[/COLOR]

Seems to me you spend alot of time with these johns instead of trying to prove that Peach isn't bad.

How good the player is is important. not just how good a character is. There is a reason alot of meta knight mains are not on the same level as the top ones. And place bad. People are so quick to blame the character and never themselves.

Nicole and Ill aren't doing any work. When they go to big tournies that matter they do bad/not make it out of pools. Numbers don't mean anything, its who you beat that matters. let me go to a tourny with 100 people and they all just started brawl yesterday, get first and brag about how legit I am. They don't beat anyone note worthy or ranked. You can go to your local tourny and place high all you want. Go to a big tourny that matters with tuff competition and do bad all the time does not say you do work. Same time they lost to people that are not all that. All peaches do. So nice try but no.

No character has mains that are perfect.

No character has mains that implement all techniques flawlessly.

Other characters aren't getting results just because they have perfect players maining them.

There is a big difference. First look at how good/smart the player is in general. Then you apply character. Like I said above, we have meta knight players that suck balls in tourny. There is a reason for that. Cause they are not that good as players in general. Not all that smart at the game. power means nothing if you have no clue how to use it or smart enough to use it correctly.

Ike- San. top/pro level player
Ness- Shaky " " "
Sonic- X " " "

Hell I will even go lower for you on the tier list.

Zelda- DarkMusician before he quit her.
He was not know just for being a Zelda player. but how smart he was and did great things with her for a low tier. With the character that Zelda is, it take alot of smarts and brains to beast.

Link- Deva, Legan, kirin
These guys are seriously smart as players in general to do sick and hard wins with Link.

Bowser- Vex
He was a smart and wise player to do the things he did with bowser.

What, not enough? ok.

Ganon-Verm Best ganon to me. the way he things and players wth such a damm limited character. he might not even place high at tournies which for that, some might not even call him a top player. but to me he is. Sadly when he shows what ganon can really do, ganon still hold him back.

All these characters i stated, they have a player that is smart, and use their character affectively Abuses all their options and w/e tricks they can do. know what they can't and can't do. Then as smart players in general, they go in and do damage.

Peach players have no one like that. They do alot of things they should not be doing. They don't do things they should be doing. They play aggressive straight up knowing Peach can't kill well and will be burning your kill moves. And knowing that an aggressive Peach is not hard to stop/hit. useful and simple things that can help so much with Peach to just beast people don't do.

I'm talking out my *** you say on this? I actually watch peach videos. From USA to japan even. peaches going aggressive when they should not be. Rushing when they have a nice lead. Playing typical and getting ***** for it. trying to kill the enemy so early like if they have the power of G&W smash attacks. I study the game play/meta game of Peach.

I even watch my own videos or save replays on my wii, watch them and get ticked at myself saying "Ok, why the hell did I do that, why am I rushing him with fair, I am winning, pull back, why do I keep getting up the same way over and over. Why am I not punishing this obvious habit, etc." Which makes me feel more of an *** cause I know all this stuff and yet don't do any of it.

People wanna call me bias cause I main Peach? Any character in this game actually should **** a Peach if she just goes all rambo. Now why is that. Cause it is not hard for any character in this game to stop an aggressive Peach. I'll sit here and say People should not even be losing to a Peach like that. Just **** the pitch. A peach that is all D or switches from both styles of play is another story. Peach likes to be in the air and down air alot, that **** is easy **** for any character. Peach wants to use fair alot? easy **** for any character and expect to be alive for a long time on a stock alone. Hit and run fro her. She will always be coming to you with the typical play of fair and just **** it. See a peach that always wants to dair when recovering? even when they are no where near you? Easy to hit that ***** and keep her out. or take the stock. if you don't you ether never fought a Peach or just plan dumb, cause that **** is too easy.

So again, how smart the player is matters. And I'll say it again, there is not one Peach alive on pro level to show her true ability. Not one damm person. When one Peach finally comes in like that and w/e results come is when I'll put money on the line it would be pretty ****. if Peach was to still fail, then I would glady say that she aint all that. and belongs where she is. but until Peach players develop the mind of people like these top/smart/pro players, I'm not gonna buy this.

Illmatic goes hard, I hear Silly Kyle is pretty good. In all reality, Peach probably is pretty good, but with people like Dark Pch posting, my opinion on her won't ever be that great.

Also, at Dark Pch. For Christ's sake, go download Firefox. It gives you these great little red lines under all the words you've incorrectly spelled, and even suggestions as to what you've tried to spell.

Kyle Plays only in AZ and AZ is not a good state for smash. Idc who wanna flame me for this. Bring it, I'm not gonna bother replying. And he does not beat anyone note worthy to get his placings. numbers don't matter, it's people that you beat that counts. And how tuff the competition level is at the tournaments. Him playing there does not show me how good he is. And even when I watch his vids he does dumb things like the rest of us do on weak players. When he plays in a good region or big tournament that matters, then I can actually see how good he is.

And I am not asking anyone here to change their opinions on Peach. You actually think I made this debate to convince and change peoples opinions? I strongly know what I say around here does not matter to the smash community or the BBR at all. So if you wanna think she is bottom tier, go ahead. But why would I even bother debating? Cause I find it fun. And like to lay down whats up. If not one person wants to believe what I say then fine. I did what I had to do as a competitive player and a member of the smash community. There the are a small few out there that actually read and learn for this for those that even care.

I go into debates like this already knowing people would never agree/believe what I say. So don't think I do this to change peoples minds. if I do it's just a bonus for me. I do it cause I want to and it can help those that actually care about these things. And if no one does not, then I do it cause I just want too and ENJOY IT. Even if it is 500 against 1.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

MMM is a mid level falco.

Pscht, whatever. My Falco is at least slightly above mid level. Get it right!

No seriously though, KID, you are coming off as a hater in that post about Kain.

Kain is REALLY good and has beaten several top level IC's including Lain and Hylian and has done plenty of other great things recently.

Wolf really isn't that bad as a character if you know his bad matchups well. On the contrary, he's a very good character who just gets screwed over by some really unfortunate stuff. If you can get around that, though, he's fine. His killpower is crazy, his camp game is very respectable, good air traction, etc.

Wolf vs Falco is pretty much dead even, so a good Wolf like Kain will have no trouble vs him anyway. I beat Holmes' Wolf with Falco a few weeks ago at Kahoka Me Your Moves 2. Holmes has a good Wolf and has beaten me before, but he plays many characters, not just Wolf.

Kain DESTROYED my Falco at Brainshock. He killed me twice at like 70% or some crap, it was nuts. So I went DeDeDe and 3 stocked him on Green Greens (L-O-L), then we had a really close last match on Lylatt that went down to the last stock with both of us fairly high, but he killed my DeDeDe before I could get the last kill on him.

Point being, Kain is a great player and Wolf is a perfectly fine character if used correctly. No need for you to diss stuff when the results clearly show you are hating on Kain/Wolf for no reason

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Maybe it's because there's no potential to wring out of Peach. All these other characters are managing well enough.

 

[Espy Rose]

Bring it, I'm not gonna bother replying.

It's funny, because that's the exact opposite of what you always do.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Maybe it's because there's no potential to wring out of Peach. All these other characters are managing well enough.

I have no clue what you are getting at?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I have no clue what you are getting at?

Her results may have died out because there's nothing left to grasp, while other characters are still growing. That wouldn't suggest that Peach is a bad character, but that she's doomed to mediocrity.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Her results may have died out because there's nothing left to grasp, while other characters are still growing. That wouldn't suggest that Peach is a bad character, but that she's doomed to mediocrity.

You I can actually talk you, even if you dont agree with what I said.

And nothing died out. it's more like people not abusing stuff they should have. None have played her top her full power. Same time people getting better. so makes **** worst. Thus results deing out.

I dont see Peach abusing bonewalking or create smart walls with turnips. or camping when they have the lead/a match they should be camping in. Lots of things and play people are just not doing. if They were, then I would agree with this.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The first time I saw bonewalking in action was when I visited Denver last summer. Meno and some other Peach were playing each other. It looked pretty interesting.

 

[Eddie G]

Her results may have died out because there's nothing left to grasp, while other characters are still growing. That wouldn't suggest that Peach is a bad character, but that she's doomed to mediocrity.

As unfortunate at that is, I've come to that conclusion as well.

That is why I have been putting in a lot of practice with other characters (Pikachu and Falco for singles, and MK for doubles). Then after playing as any or all of them for a long period of time or during a majority of a tournament: during the short period of re-adjusting to her attributes and whatnot...I have to say that everything she has feels so "blehhhh" in comparison to what I have already been working with; slow fall speed, terrible airdodge, abysmal kill power, random elements than either help or hinder her (pulls/f-smash properties), a so-so projectile that disappears on shields/has no additional AoE properties when on the ground like grenades/bananas do, and so on.

I honestly want to get good enough with another, more reliable character so that I can benefit more from making correct reads and be able to punish harder/kill earlier. I don't want to be known as simply "one of the handful of decent Peach mains" nor be associated strictly with the character anymore (either as part of a Peach generalization *lol* or as part of the aforementioned bunch). I want to be a great and recognizable player that even some of the most skilled people will be afraid to play in tournament; I just hope that finding a new character that "fits" me is the only issue at hand.

I've babbled on way too much about myself though, I apologize for that. xD

 

[Deleted member]

I don't agree with most of dark peaches rants, but i also dont agree with the random peach hate. Peach honestly can go places, and it IS true that peach doesnt have any fantastic players anymore besides Leon.
Peach is slow movement wise but she has tons of good pressure options and amaaaazing out of shield options. She kills kinda bad, but i dont see how she should go down much (besides her crappy results).

Yoshi mains used to not have many results to warrent a rise (delta placed pretty good, polt placed ok, firefly placed good in canada, i placed ok, etc). Then polt steps it up and starts beating lots of good people...playing a very basic yoshi. He doesnt and didnt revolutionize anything besides maybe abusing running spotdodge mixups, but he just started playing smarter and all of a sudden yoshi is a "mid tier" character. He doesnt DR, doesnt use egg lay a ton like zudenka and i, he just mixes it up well.

Same thing will happen with peach i bet, peach surely can place better than yoshis can.

Sonic is better than peach though, sonic doesnt lose to important characters as badly imo.

 

[Exceladon City]

Unnecessary bull.

1. Must you type a novel every time you post?

2. You talk down about other Peach mains as if you do well. To be honest, I think you're butthurt because you've faded into obscurity and nobody mentions your name unless it's about the drama that you bring to every discussion about Peach.

3. To reiterate on what Espy said put up or shut up. We're kinda tired of your long winded posts about nothing.

 

[Coney]

i don't see what's so absolutely unfathomable about a peach being a serious tournament threat and taking out big names. just because no one has done it doesn't mean no one ever will.

however, this incessant ranting about her potential isn't going to do any good for anyone. every peach will hit a point, as most players will, where they will have to decide whether they wish to be a top *CHARACTER* or a top *PLAYER*. if the former, they'll stick with her and see how far they can go, if they can work through her difficulties and blatant flaws. if the latter, they'll switch to someone else.

peach players obviously have the dedication...maybe they just don't have the ability? or maybe the character herself is bad?

and don't give me that "if you used so-and-so you would ****" drivel. no one ever means that, and even if they did, such a thing is NEVER guaranteed. some people are honestly more naturally-abled to play one character, regardless of how good that character actually is, and they do poorly with anyone else.

 

[DTP]

1. Must you type a novel every time you post?

2. You talk down about other Peach mains as if you do well. To be honest, I think you're butthurt because you've faded into obscurity and nobody mentions your name unless it's about the drama that you bring to every discussion about Peach.

3. To reiterate on what Espy said put up or shut up. We're kinda tired of your long winded posts about nothing.

Oh man prepare for an essay of a response.

 

[Spelt]

i don't see what's so absolutely unfathomable about a peach being a serious tournament threat and taking out big names. just because no one has done it doesn't mean no one ever will.

however, this incessant ranting about her potential isn't going to do any good for anyone. every peach will hit a point, as most players will, where they will have to decide whether they wish to be a top *CHARACTER* or a top *PLAYER*. if the former, they'll stick with her and see how far they can go, if they can work through her difficulties and blatant flaws. if the latter, they'll switch to someone else.

peach players obviously have the dedication...maybe they just don't have the ability? or maybe the character herself is bad?

and don't give me that "if you used so-and-so you would ****" drivel. no one ever means that, and even if they did, such a thing is NEVER guaranteed. some people are honestly more naturally-abled to play one character, regardless of how good that character actually is, and they do poorly with anyone else.

it's all about matchups.
nobody bothers to learn them in brawl.

 

[Dark.Pch]

1. Must you type a novel every time you post?

2. You talk down about other Peach mains as if you do well. To be honest, I think you're butthurt because you've faded into obscurity and nobody mentions your name unless it's about the drama that you bring to every discussion about Peach.

3. To reiterate on what Espy said put up or shut up. We're kinda tired of your long winded posts about nothing.

I talk down others as if I do well myself? Really? Are you that brain dead to miss the many time I said I place like crap in tournament and call myself a scrub? You trying so hard right now, and like anything you get yourself into in here, you just fail.

And if you don't like what I gotta say, use the ignore list genius. Or you too brain dead to realize that too.

and don't give me that "if you used so-and-so you would ****" drivel. no one ever means that, and even if they did, such a thing is NEVER guaranteed. some people are honestly more naturally-abled to play one character, regardless of how good that character actually is, and they do poorly with anyone else.

I said I THINK that if a Peach was to play they way they should and not do stupid ****, they place high and better. I also said if she was to still fail then I would just see her as some average mid tier. But I am not gonna agree to any of that till one person actually abuses Peach to her full ability. And no one alive has done that. Nor am I gonna say it is for sure Peach would just destroy for sure if she was to be played like that. But to me I think she would just be seriously beast.

I seriously don't understand what is so hard to get something as simple as that. Someone get my translator shadowlink in here.

Also Peach has better height tier match up ratios then sonic. People like X have even admit it that Matches that he went through against these top players were hard. he may have beaten them but won't let that say Sonic goes even or beats them. He seriously is bias when it comes to things like that. I know alot would just say sonic goes even or beats these characters if they were in X spot. or that he is better than alot of characters cause of what he did. X is just too ****ing good. And I respect that dude for his honestly and work for sonic.

 

[Exceladon City]

I talk other done as I do well. Are you that brain dead to miss the many time I said I place like crap in tournament and call myself a scrub? You trying so hard right now, and like anything you get yourself into in here, you just fail.

And if you don't like what I gotta say, use the ignore list genius. Or you too brain dead to realize that too.

Cool story *****. You mad far from being a bro.

I shouldn't have to use the Ignore List because someone fills up valuable space with posts about dumb **** that isn't relevant i.e Peach mains that haven't done anything in a span of 1-1.5 years.

Aspeaking of relevancy, what's people's opinion on this guy ?

 

[Coney]

why do YOU get to determine what optimal peach play is, though? who are YOU to say what people should and shouldn't be doing? what makes you any different than IkeMaster1998 insisting Ike is a really great character just so long as he can land three fsmashes? it'd be one thing if you were some kind of established authority but in the same post that you're calling yourself a scrub and a mediocre player you're saying you have this indisputable knowledge that peach is actually a very unique snowflake and we are all beautiful animals etc. etc.

i'm saying, it's debatable whether or not we've yet reached the peak of peach's performance. i doubt it, honestly. but to declare yourself as the one true judge and jury of all performance of a character is silly and, to be frank, a tad narcissistic.

maybe her players are bad. maybe she is bad. can you really say?

toon link is annoying. i hate him almost as much as i hate loose t-shirts WHAT UP LEGAN I SEE YOU LURKING

 

[Exceladon City]

why do YOU get to determine what optimal peach play is, though? who are YOU to say what people should and shouldn't be doing? what makes you any different than IkeMaster1998 insisting Ike is a really great character just so long as he can land three fsmashes?

i'm saying, it's debatable whether or not we've yet reached the peak of peach's performance. i doubt it, honestly. but to declare yourself as the one true judge and jury of all performance of a character is silly and, to be frank, a tad narcissistic.

maybe her players are bad. maybe she is bad. can you really say?

Thank you Coney, for putting my thoughts into words.

 

[DTP]

Her players aren't bad. Saying that she needs a super incredibly talented player to make up for what she lacks as a character implies/says that she is bad though.

EDIT: And really, she isn't all that great, imo.


This is more directed at Dark Pch btw.

 

[Legan]

FUUUU CONEY lmao!

 

[Spelt]

peach is bad, almost as bad as snake.

 

[Purple]

Relax on hating on Dark.Pch guys.

Someone should explain to me how peach is the middle of the middle ranking wise however we're discussing how she isn't that good. Isn't that to be expected from someone who isn't in top 8 already? Granted she doesn't have something that can be known for point blank and abused, however I'd think she'd have something that we're missing :x

 

[Exceladon City]

Relax on hating on Dark.Pch guys.

Someone should explain to me how peach is the middle of the middle ranking wise however we're discussing how she isn't that good. Isn't that to be expected from someone who isn't in top 8 already? Does she have the tool that allows her to be relatively successful?

Same reason Snake is still sitting at #2 when he's clearly not #2.

On another note I absolutely love your avatar. <3 MvC1.

 

[Hylian]

@hylian

vids?

also, in case you might have taken it the wrong way, when I wrote that, I meant to say the FIRST match I saw that i thought he might lose was semifinals.

not 'only' match. wasnt trying to take a shot at you or anything.

Don't have vids from this tournament yet, I only have the vids of the 1st time I played kain:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up4JpL2eDcw

He played wayyy better this past weekend though, I think videos will go up eventually. I'm glad he beat me, I was too confident against wolf.

 

[Purple]

I see where you're coming from Excel, I think i'll do that chat with the BBR thing to see why that's the case.

And MvC1 is pretty cash, I actually play it more than I play MvC2. (As a matter of fact, I rarely play MvC2 at all :[ )

 

[ShadowLink84]

Same reason Snake is still sitting at #2 when he's clearly not #2.

On another note I absolutely love your avatar. <3 MvC1.

Really?
Peach has a single player consistently placing top 8 for her?
News to me.
One hing I hear is "X character should go down!"
Okay well, then who should go up? You can't lower Peach without raising someone up.
Whom would be higher than her that is already below her?

I use peach as an example since she is the most recently discussed character.
Furthermore, lets cease hating on Dark, he types of up novels cause he is dedicated. A bit too strongly, but he is dedicated.

I agree he needs to tone it down, but would you prefer he pull what you did and just go , col story *****.

It just isn't necessary and I thought the community was more mature than to fall down slinging insults at each other.

That's my job!

 

[Purple]

Ooor.. shadowlink can just post right after me, that works.

What is with this thread having high traffic at 1am?

 

[Dark.Pch]

why do YOU get to determine what optimal peach play is, though? who are YOU to say what people should and shouldn't be doing? what makes you any different than IkeMaster1998 insisting Ike is a really great character just so long as he can land three fsmashes? it'd be one thing if you were some kind of established authority but in the same post that you're calling yourself a scrub and a mediocre player you're saying you have this indisputable knowledge that peach is actually a very unique snowflake and we are all beautiful animals etc. etc.

i'm saying, it's debatable whether or not we've yet reached the peak of peach's performance. i doubt it, honestly. but to declare yourself as the one true judge and jury of all performance of a character is silly and, to be frank, a tad narcissistic.

maybe her players are bad. maybe she is bad. can you really say?

toon link is annoying. i hate him almost as much as i hate loose t-shirts WHAT UP LEGAN I SEE YOU LURKING

This is an easy one. Cause I'm here watching vids and watch Peach players play in person. And things that we all talk about and should be doing, people don't do it at all. always wanna be aggressive and burning kill moves instead of holding back to rack up damage which she is really good at. I not be saying all this if I not be seeing it all with my own eyes. I not be saying all this if I am a ******* myself and don't do things I should be doing.

With that, thats the person I be to say all this. How the hell you have topics and discussion about allthe helpful things and tools to use with Peach and yet don't do then. or how to play save and use common sense and don't do it. You gonna sit here and tell me that is a character flaw?

Katy, let the hate rock, this is not bothering me at all. I know what I get myself into when I get into debates in the community. Use to this anyway. besides, this is just too fun to have 500 against 1. I'm not gonna back down on what I say just cause the community is insulting me or trying to sound funny trying to get at me. They can bring it all at me hard. Pure pressure aint gonna work on me here. I stand by what I say and know what I am talking about. yet I never once said annoy one had to agree with what I say. I seriously don't expect people in the community to anyway.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ooor.. shadowlink can just post right after me, that works.

What is with this thread having high traffic at 1am?

NINJA!

Sadface

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So how do people feel about Toon Link?

 

[Ussi]

EDIT: please ignore, made a pointless reply

edit2: I like toon link, always fun to watch a projectile mess > usmash