Official BBR Tier List v5

[Browny]

But tournaments which ban IDC, a technique which has never proven to be overpowered in tournament situations, should stick with their '08 assumptions?

Spoiler

Planking is easier to do, arguably safer and can be done for an entire match if someone wanted to

 

[-LzR-]

Such technique doesn't need to be proven. Like Circlecamping.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

except no real tournaments allow infinites anyway? nobody cares lol

Except for the people who mains the characters who are nerfed while others aren't. Double standards are kinda bad.

you actually mentioned wifi.... your argument is garbage now

This was the season bracket on AiB.

i have to question your tournament experience in this game

when you are playing for MONEY theres this thing where you dont really give a **** if its possible to do something when theres clearly a better option. TKD used mk before fox. mk > fox at the ice climber matchup

while even if it is winnable by fox, its going to be a much harder and stressful experience for TKD. stress = more energy spent on match = less energy in total = worse performance in grandfinals potentially.

What does any of this have to do with what I said in context to what in related to? Nothing.

Him trying picking up MK has nothing to do with Fox's ability to place alone, if anything it proves my point.

this makes your argument worse if anything just look at the basic tools of fox and the ones of peach

the fact that you are even seriously arguing this makes me die alittle

If he had better tools overall, he could face his hard counters better where they wouldn't be hard counters.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I cant speak on shiek and ice climbers but pikachu really isnt an auto win the way people make it out to be.

but honestly, you can put all of the pikachu, shiek, and ice climbers players together, and there still wont be as many of them as there are metas at any given tourney. So being (supposedly, but not really) auto lose hard countered by 3 characters still isnt as bad as having a cruddy matchup with mk.

 

[Exceladon City]

When exactly? and what happened?



Never said he was bad.

I just think some characters are better.

Which characters? If you say Peach, I will laugh. If I have to, I'll make a video of me laughing to prove to you how much of a joke that is.

 

[AMKalmar]

^ I will get my xbox live cam just to show you how serious I am!

wtf does that even mean

Haha, looking back I guess I didn't say much at all with that sentence. I meant Lucas is basically where he should be, maybe a couple places higher.

 

[AMKalmar]

Sorry, double post.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

AND @ niddo.
PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD,
stop talkiing about not ike, every time you do it makes me want to claw my eyes out

MK is the best character in the game.

*watches K.I.D. claw his eyes out*

 

[Chuee]

I don't get why people assume that TKD goes MK because those MUs are hard counters or auto-wins.
He also goes MK on Kirby, when I think we all know Kirby doesn't hard counter Fox.
Koolaid even goes MK for the ditto, yet he thinks Pit vs MK is 6-4.
TKD is just being smart and increasing his chance of winning.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't get why people assume that TKD goes MK because those MUs are hard counters or auto-wins.
He also goes MK on Kirby, when I think we all know Kirby doesn't hard counter Fox.
Koolaid even goes MK for the ditto, yet he thinks Pit vs MK is 6-4.
TKD is just being smart and increasing his chance of winning.

Which in turn lessens the credit that goes towards Fox. Great player, just not with Fox alone.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I cant speak on shiek and ice climbers but pikachu really isnt an auto win the way people make it out to be.

but honestly, you can put all of the pikachu, shiek, and ice climbers players together, and there still wont be as many of them as there are metas at any given tourney. So being (supposedly, but not really) auto lose hard countered by 3 characters still isnt as bad as having a cruddy matchup with mk.

Well, imo. Sheik is the easiest of the three, if she didn't have her tilt lock, the match-up would be more even or maybe her disadvantage or something. Still from Sheik mains that I've asked, avoiding her Filt is like trying to consistently avoid DDD's grab.

I can't give a good rating on Ice Climbers or Pikachu being harder than each other, tbh.

None are impossible, but they are still hard counters and all three beat Fox harder than MK beats Peach. MK is more common, maybe even more so than the three together, however the MU's of all three are harder than Peach's worst match-up, which I do think counts for something against the character.

Which characters? If you say Peach, I will laugh. If I have to, I'll make a video of me laughing to prove to you how much of a joke that is.

Well might as well get working on that vid, lol.

Also I think Wolf & DK are better than Fox, I'm in the group that think his +4 rise wasn't warranted.

I don't get why people assume that TKD goes MK because those MUs are hard counters or auto-wins.
He also goes MK on Kirby, when I think we all know Kirby doesn't hard counter Fox.
Koolaid even goes MK for the ditto, yet he thinks Pit vs MK is 6-4.
TKD is just being smart and increasing his chance of winning.

Because the tier list is about each characters viability and utility by themselves to be used in tournaments, it's not this character + secondaries.

 

[da K.I.D.]

maybe the better peach mains would place as well as TKD if they seconded MK for certain matchups... what would happen then?

 

[Albert.]

Why do people still care about some of this stuff?

 

[Tesh]

Even without MK, TKD would do 10 times better than all Peach mains combined. She is a low tier after all.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Peach is the worst character in the game.

 

[Afro Boy2000]

^ I second this....

 

[Chuee]

Well, imo. Sheik is the easiest of the three, if she didn't have her tilt lock, the match-up would be more even or maybe her disadvantage or something. Still from Sheik mains that I've asked, avoiding her Filt is like trying to consistently avoid DDD's grab.

I can't give a good rating on Ice Climbers or Pikachu being harder than each other, tbh.

None are impossible, but they are still hard counters and all three beat Fox harder than MK beats Peach. MK is more common, maybe even more so than the three together, however the MU's of all three are harder than Peach's worst match-up, which I do think counts for something against the character.

Not really, I don't see why people say Sheik hard counters Fox....
yet goes even with Falco and near even with Wolf. Yeah, I know they do better than Fox but I doubt they do that much better.

Well might as well get working on that vid, lol.

Also I think Wolf & DK are better than Fox, I'm in the group that think his +4 rise wasn't warranted.

DK is probably not. Fox does a lot better against the higher tiered characters than DK.
Wolf is arguable.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yeah, Falco still gets ***** by the ftilt lock pretty convincingly at early percents. lol

 

[_Kain_]

Yeah, Falco still gets ***** by the ftilt lock pretty convincingly at early percents. lol

Yeah but Falco has pew pews and many other options for keeping away which is why he still does pretty good against Sheik AND ICs

Fox has no keep away, he just has lasers and relies on mixups. If one of these mixups fails he pays with a stock unlike the other 2, who get out of ftilt locks easier and dont die as easy

 

[etecoon]

This was the season bracket on AiB.

oh well why didn't you say this from the beginning? I was laughing hysterically at this person asserting that beating nairo on wifi proved something but I didn't know it was a season match on AiB, that changes everything!

peach is garbage tier btw

 

[Blacknight99923]

can you not SDI ftilt locks?
because iirc shiek has to hit you like 20 times, it seems like it'd be fairly easy to do (if you can)

get a friend or whatever to spam ftilt, they don't need to main shiek

start trying to SDI

start not getting *****.

of course this is assuming you CAN SDi ftilt
but I can't see why you can't

 

[_Kain_]

can you not SDI ftilt locks?

No sheik ftilt you you die gg

 

[Chuee]

but Kain I thought you said you can DI anything :/

 

[_Kain_]

but Kain I thought you said you can DI anything :/

Nope I lied you can combo in brawl

 

[-Mars-]

K guys let me lay it out for you. Fox-Sheik matchup is 70-30 Sheik.

That being said....Sheik is not a character you want to pull out on Fox as a pocket character. Fox is too good at KO'ing Sheik and gets her to that KO percent extremely fast. You can't afford to make many mistakes as Sheik so unless you main her or play her ALOT then don't bother....that's why you see Sheiks getting ***** all the time because she has a very small error margin.

 

[Fuujin]

Basically all she has that MU is the tilt lock, catching fox in it is a lot harder than you would think.

 

[Deleted member]

All Sheik has on any of them is the tilt lock. And the reason that you can't SDI it is because Sheik will just turn the other way and continue the lock. Judo knows exactly how to do it.

 

[Orion*]

Tournaments where grabreleases and other infinites are banned should really think again.

finland should think twice about again sir

Except for the people who mains the characters who are nerfed while others aren't. Double standards are kinda bad.

it doesnt matter whats logical if nobody ever interprets it. we are discussing the current metagame, not your fantasy land where some other rules exist, take that garbage to ruleset discussion LOL im not even responding to it anymore

if you are actually using this.... as a point you have to be either
1) extremely free
2) wifi head
3) dont play the game enough
4) stuck in your own world
5) not aware that wifi has absolutely nothing to do with actual irl tournaments

but its probably all 5

What does any of this have to do with what I said in context to what in related to? Nothing.

because you are using this garbage argument where its like
A) tkd doesnt only use fox so fox obviously cant deal with his bad matchups like peach a character that can place like fox never did can
*bu wait fox places better than peach bro----
B) peaches tournament results dont matter so dont look at peach mains just look at her tools
*but bro you just used foxs tournament results as an example

If he had better tools overall, he could face his hard counters better where they wouldn't be hard counters.

that doesnt even make sense. you act like peach doesnt get it up the **** LOL

Haha, looking back I guess I didn't say much at all with that sentence. I meant Lucas is basically where he should be, maybe a couple places higher.

aight

TKD is just being smart and increasing his chance of winning.

this

Basically all she has that MU is the tilt lock, catching fox in it is a lot harder than you would think.

no

she also has the mobility to keep up with his, although she has more rewards for grabs fox gets more for hits. sheik is pretty good at gimping spacies still, and she can semi camp fox.

 

[Teh Future]

peach has no hard counters -_-

mk is not bad for her

fox can win any matchup that includes ics, pika, and shiek

 

[Goldenadept]

every character outside of the bottom 5 or so CAN win any match up

its just that much harder for them to pull out a win.

 

[da K.I.D.]

so basically what Im hearing/saying is:

Fox gets hard countered by sheik/Pikachu/ICs.

But ONLY IF YOU MAIN THE CHARACTER OF PLAY THEM VERY VERY SERIOUSLY.
Picking up the character for 2-3 days then trying to play them against a skilled fox main in tourney, WILL GET YOU *****.

That being said, the chances of running into an skilled player of any of those 3, is MONUMENTALLY less then the chances of running into a random pocket metaknight that only regular counters any other character we could be talking about, in this case, peach.

 

[Goldenadept]

well a skilled ganon player could probably beat any one who just literally picked up their main a couple days ago.
just cause its not likely the fox will go up against a skilled sheik/pika/ic's doesn't make that hard MU just go away magically.
its the same for any character with tough MU's, there's hardly any D3's out there that are doing really well lately but that doesnt make the MU any less of a hassle for wolf

 

[da K.I.D.]

It doesnt make the matchup better, but at the same time it doesnt make their viability any worse.

the thing you arent taking into account is that fox vs sheik isnt any worse than mk vs a bunch of characters. and MK is a metric ton more present in tourney.

 

[-Mars-]

Basically all she has that MU is the tilt lock, catching fox in it is a lot harder than you would think.

Wrong.

All Sheik has on any of them is the tilt lock.

Wrong again. Sheik has superior range, comparable mobility, faster moveset, crouch, and a projectile that actually has hitstun and ***** Foxs' recovery.

I could play this matchup really gay without ftilt and still give Fox problems.

 

[phi1ny3]

Sheik also has a great edgeguard game, and some great tools for zoning/punishing.

Sheik's ground mobility rival's fox's, in both walk speed, dash speed, and dash -> shield.

While admittedly Wolf is harder to get a lock on/finish properly, Fox doesn't have as strong a zoning device like Wolf bair which makes him more susceptible to getting tilt locked. That and regardless of DIing into the 2nd hitbox of usmash or not, Fox is light enough that he dies either way.

Sheik also interrupts camping fairly well with needles. Granted she still is someone that has to approach in a neutral situation, but Sheik can land some heavy damage against Fox's laser camping.

aka basically what Orion said at the end of his post.

 

[Exceladon City]

Well might as well get working on that vid, lol.

Also I think Wolf & DK are better than Fox, I'm in the group that think his +4 rise wasn't warranted.

We need to get together and toke up. Whatever you are on to make you think Peach is better than Fox, you need to be sharing right now. Fox is slightly better than DK. DK and Fox are better than Wolf.

Not really, I don't see why people say Sheik hard counters Fox....
yet goes even with Falco and near even with Wolf. Yeah, I know they do better than Fox but I doubt they do that much better.

Falco has this one think called Falco Jab. Like it's pretty ****ing ****. He also has lasers with hitstun, a projectile reflector and a chaingrab.

Wolf, I dunno. Don't care enough.

K guys let me lay it out for you. Fox-Sheik matchup is 70-30 Sheik.

That being said....Sheik is not a character you want to pull out on Fox as a pocket character. Fox is too good at KO'ing Sheik and gets her to that KO percent extremely fast. You can't afford to make many mistakes as Sheik so unless you main her or play her ALOT then don't bother....that's why you see Sheiks getting ***** all the time because she has a very small error margin.

^This.

finland should think twice about again sir

it doesnt matter whats logical if nobody ever interprets it. we are discussing the current metagame, not your fantasy land where some other rules exist, take that garbage to ruleset discussion LOL im not even responding to it anymore



if you are actually using this.... as a point you have to be either
1) extremely free
2) wifi head
3) dont play the game enough
4) stuck in your own world
5) not aware that wifi has absolutely nothing to do with actual irl tournaments

but its probably all 5



because you are using this garbage argument where its like
A) tkd doesnt only use fox so fox obviously cant deal with his bad matchups like peach a character that can place like fox never did can
*bu wait fox places better than peach bro----
B) peaches tournament results dont matter so dont look at peach mains just look at her tools
*but bro you just used foxs tournament results as an example


that doesnt even make sense. you act like peach doesnt get it up the **** LOL

aight

this


no

she also has the mobility to keep up with his, although she has more rewards for grabs fox gets more for hits. sheik is pretty good at gimping spacies still, and she can semi camp fox.

Orion, why aren't we friends?

Wrong.



Wrong again. Sheik has superior range, comparable mobility, faster moveset, crouch, and a projectile that actually has hitstun and ***** Foxs' recovery.

I could play this matchup really gay without ftilt and still give Fox problems.

^this again. Sheik can breathe down Fox's neck all day if she wanted to. Saying Sheik can't catch Fox is like saying Peach is better than Fox. Neither of which are true.

 

[Fuujin]

Wrong.



Wrong again. Sheik has superior range, comparable mobility, faster moveset, crouch, and a projectile that actually has hitstun and ***** Foxs' recovery.

I could play this matchup really gay without ftilt and still give Fox problems.

Sheik can't play gay on a character that's faster than her and has a decent reflector w/ out tilt lock.
That is pretty much all she has on him, nothing else Sheik has give fox trouble other than her tilt lock, and her speed.
It's match up defining.
I'm not saying it's all Sheik can do on him but without it Fox/Falco/Wolf would all have drastically different ratios.
All most likely not in her favor.

^this again. Sheik can breathe down Fox's neck all day if she wanted to. Saying Sheik can't catch Fox is like saying Peach is better than Fox. Neither of which are true.

Well not to make it sound like she can't catch him, she goes about toe to toe with him in movement but I just think Fox running away from Sheik > Sheik running away from Fox, yet there's no point in discussing if Sheik can run away from him or vice versa when she won't be doing it.

Also regardless of how bad Fox does on Sheik it shouldn't really affect his positioning on the tier list MK is a much more important MU.

 

[Chuee]

Also regardless of how bad Fox does on Sheik it shouldn't really affect his positioning on the tier list MK is a much more important MU.

This.
A characters MU with a character who is almost nonexistant in tourneys should have no effect on their viability.

 

[Espy Rose]

I wouldn't say "no effect", Chuee.
Instead, the effect should be fairly dependent on how common the character is in tournaments.

In this case, since there is a fairly low amount of Pikachus, Sheiks, and whatnot in any given tournament, Fox would be considered more viable. Especially since he fares much better with Meta Knight, who is practically universal at tournaments.

 

[etecoon]

mk is not bad for her(peach)

results say otherwise, unless you're ryu and you're combing the AiB ladder for useful matchup data